Road rage against cyclists is it just me?

Chips Lovell · 23-07-2013 03:04PM

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Really? You cycle the canal in the mornings, how many times do you see people go through the light after it's gone red, sit in yellow boxes and obstruct the flow of traffic, encroach on the cycle lane, speed down the canal when there is a clear stretch, turn left without indicating.

Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying the level of law breaking among cyclists far exceeds that of motorists.

droidus · 23-07-2013 03:07PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

Again, I'm not saying it doesn't happen. I'm saying the level of law breaking among cyclists far exceeds that of motorists.

As has been discussed about a billion times here, this is nonsense. Cyclists simply break the law in a more visible manner. Drive down the quays or on the M50 and you will find 50-100% of motorists happily breaking the law by exceeding the speed limit.

No Pants · 23-07-2013 03:07PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

Now do cyclists have their own version of BMW drivers, the ones that behave as if they are owed something by other road users?

Cervélo riders? :pac:

Spook_ie · 23-07-2013 03:08PM

No Pants wrote: »

I'd agree to all of the above, but unfortunately lycra seems to be the least uncomfortable clothing option.

And on a closed road to boot......

Chips Lovell · 23-07-2013 03:10PM

droidus wrote: »

As has been discussed about a billion times here, this is nonsense. Cyclists simply break the law in a more visible manner. Drive down the quays or on the M50 and you will find 50-100% of motorists happily breaking the law by exceeding the speed limit.

I don't think this is. I've been paying a bit more attention to this recently as I've been on a lot of long journeys and while it's not unusual to see people speeding on the motorways for example, but it's certainly nowhere near 50 per cent.

When you're in a situation where the majority are breaking the law, you're going to get a lot of negative PR.

anncoates · 23-07-2013 03:10PM

Tombo2001 wrote: »

Hysterical whataboutery it is not.....
.

Sample discussion:

A: You cycle in a way that is inconsiderate of other road users.

B: What about X and Y dangerous motorists on the road?

A: I drive safely and respect other road users.

B: What about X and Y dangerous motorists on the road?

A: What about taking repsonsiblity for your own road behaviour?

B: What about X and Y dangerous motorists on the road?

ETC

droidus · 23-07-2013 03:14PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I don't think this is. I've been paying a bit more attention to this recently as I've been on a lot of long journeys and while it's not unusual to see people speeding on the motorways for example, but it's certainly nowhere near 50 per cent.

Its chronic on the M50. I drive at the speed limit. Everyone who overtakes me is breaking it. A LOT of cars overtake me.

I was cycling down the quays this morning. There was a van holding up traffic in the right hand lane. I was a couple of cars behind him. Didnt realise what was going on until I glanced at the speedo and saw Id hit 30. First time thats ever happened.

Spook_ie · 23-07-2013 03:15PM

droidus wrote: »

Its chronic on the M50. I drive at the speed limit. Everyone who overtakes me is breaking it. A LOT of cars overtake me.

I was cycling down the quays this morning. There was a van holding up traffic in the right hand lane. I was a couple of cars behind him. Didnt realise what was going on until I glanced at the speedo and saw Id hit 30. First time thats ever happened.

There wasn't a van holding up traffic then, was there?

quozl · 23-07-2013 03:15PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I don't think this is. I've been paying a bit more attention to this recently as I've been on a lot of long journeys and while it's not unusual to see people speeding on the motorways for example, but it's certainly nowhere near 50 per cent.

When you're in a situation where the majority are breaking the law, you're going to get a lot of negative PR.

I think you're honestly mistaken, Vladimir. My wife drives at the speed-limit on motor-ways/dual-carraigeways. She's always one of the slowest cars with a constant stream of cars passing her in the outside lanes.

I'd guess she's slower than >90% of motorway traffic.

No Pants · 23-07-2013 03:15PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

I don't think this is. I've been paying a bit more attention to this recently as I've been on a lot of long journeys and while it's not unusual to see people speeding on the motorways for example, but it's certainly nowhere near 50 per cent.

When you're in a situation where the majority are breaking the law, you're going to get a lot of negative PR.

The M50 is possibly an outlier, but I find that if you travel at 120km/h on any of the other motorways, you'll overtake 80%+ of the cars you come across. My experience is mostly on the M1, but some of the M4 and M6 also. The M50 just seems to be a free-for-all.

quozl · 23-07-2013 03:17PM

anncoates wrote: »

Sample discussion:

A: You cycle in a way that is inconsiderate of other road users.

B: What about X and Y dangerous motorists on the road?

A: I drive safely and respect other road users.

B: What about X and Y dangerous motorists on the road?

A: What about taking repsonsiblity for your own road behaviour?

B: What about X and Y dangerous motorists on the road?

ETC

Ahh, I get it. You've confused 'hysterical' and 'inane'!

Chips Lovell · 23-07-2013 03:17PM

No Pants wrote: »

The M50 is possibly an outlier, but I find that if you travel at 120km/h on any of the other motorways, you'll overtake 80%+ of the cars you come across. My experience is mostly on the M1, but some of the M4 and M6 also. The M50 just seems to be a free-for-all.

It must be. I'm not on the M50 much, but my experience of other M roads is in line with that. Do 120kph and you'll be overtaking a fair bit and only notice a minority of speeders.

hardCopy · 23-07-2013 03:20PM

No Pants wrote: »

The M50 is possibly an outlier, but I find that if you travel at 120km/h on any of the other motorways, you'll overtake 80%+ of the cars you come across. My experience is mostly on the M1, but some of the M4 and M6 also. The M50 just seems to be a free-for-all.

I think some people just think motorway = 120 km/h.

droidus · 23-07-2013 03:21PM

Spook_ie wrote: »

There wasn't a van holding up traffic then, was there?

He was travelling more slowly then everybody else. In fact, given that the speed limit doesn't apply to bikes he most definitely was holding me up. He should have pulled in to let me pass. I blame his arrogant sense of entitlement.

No Pants · 23-07-2013 03:25PM

I've just realised that I'm more law abiding on the bike that in the car. Not in terms of breaking lights or dodgy overtaking, but rather in terms of speed. I probably bend the limit a lot in the car, but even if there was a limit for the bike, the engine tends to be too knackered.

The Noble Nudge · 23-07-2013 03:27PM

anncoates wrote: »

These threads are gas and always wiorth a read.

What is highly ironic though, is that the only other forum on boards that macthes this one for hysterical whataboutery and a righteous sense of persecution is actually the Motors forum.

:pac:

Nothing funny about getting ran off the road by a 2 tonne hunk of metal with some idiot behind the wheel with only a helmet for protection. All because of an article on a radio show/paper.

DirkVoodoo · 23-07-2013 03:29PM

That is complete poppycock.

Drive along the 100 km/hr stretches of the M11/M50 and see how many people speed. Furthermore, see how many people sit right up the driver in front's ass because they aren't going quite fast enough.

Anyone remember the big accident on the M50 a few years ago, people were tailgating in blinding fog. If you want to see lunatics in traffic, drive the M50. I regularly see people in the outside lane switch across 3 lanes to get to an exit, or speed out of on-ramps to race ahead of traffic approaching from behind.

And if you want "visible and in the majority" poor behaviour, I invite you to sit outside Donybrook Fair on Morehampton road any day of the week: illegal parking, double parking, breaking lights, illegal u-turns....it's all there.

Everyone breaks the law, everyone. There are different degrees of danger and stupidity, but to use one subset as an excuse for your own poor behaviour is beyond ridiculous and laughable. It's up to the Gardai to enforce the law, I was delighted to hear about the on the spot fines and I saw a group of Italian kids get stopped outside the American Embassy trying to break the lights where I commute every morning. I was quite happy at that. It's a big, busy junction and they were morons. But why should their bad behaviour incite motorists to act out against other cyclists? The very fact you seem to find it explainable Vlad leads me to believe that it is an entirely acceptable attitude to have.

Tombo2001 · 23-07-2013 03:30PM

Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »

It must be. I'm not on the M50 much, but my experience of other M roads is in line with that. Do 120kph and you'll be overtaking a fair bit and only notice a minority of speeders.

What I would say on the topic is this.

Most motorists would accept that 120k is a fair speed limit, and that driving much faster than this is dangerous. Hence they obey that law, and I agree with you that most people do respect that particular law.

If however you have a stretch of motorway reduced to one lane, where the speed limit is reduced to 60k per hour, then most motorists will happily break that limit because they perceive it as being to slow. I've regularly been in this situation where the line of traffic is happily bumping along at 80k/ 90k per hour. Similar approach is taken to the 30k speed limit in the city centre of Dublin. Similar to using a mobile phone while driving, or breaking a red light just as its going from orange to red. Motorists do it because (i) they dont think its dangerous (if you did, why would you do it) and (ii) they dont think they will be caught.

Charlie Bird ran a piece on the news a few years back about motorists breaking speed limits. He went down to the Naas Dual carriageway, which was reduced to one or two lanes while the road works were going on. The speed limit was 60km per hour; all the cars were going at 100k per hour or more. Charlie stood there hyperventilating about "but they're alll breaking the speed limit......every single one"....which they were. I dont doubt that he drove back up to Dublin at the same speed as the rest of them

My point here: Motorists perceive some laws as being fair and obey them, and others as excessive or unreasonable, and that they can break these laws without any danger, and they break those laws.

I would agree with you that motorists dont break the law as much as cyclists.

However, I think the mind set is the same. Both cyclists and motorists will break the law where they believe it is safe to do so and they believe they wont be caught. (Of course I'm not saying its right or wrong).

Apologies for being hysterical here. I am obviously fit for the crazy house, whateveraboutery a bicycle or automobile.

Kav0777 · 23-07-2013 03:35PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

There would be if I and other motorists held up cyclists.

For Balance: Even TdF riders break red lights

droidus · 23-07-2013 03:39PM

Ive come to realise that the 'cyclist behave badly and are treated badly as a result' thesis just isnt true.

Hatred of cyclists is an irrational, unthinking cultural reflex, brought about by a combination of motoring psychology, lack of empathy/experience of cycling, driving culture and stupidity. The 'they break the law/road tax/headphones/two abreast etc... are all simply justifications for this irrationality.

If every cyclist followed every law to the letter, you would still hear anecdotal stories about the behaviour of cyclists, and people would still moan and mock. The problem is with our society's attitude to, and over-dependence on the car and the kind of thinking that results.

You cant change irrational behaviour through rational means.

Chips Lovell · 23-07-2013 03:44PM

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

But why should their bad behaviour incite motorists to act out against other cyclists? The very fact you seem to find it explainable Vlad leads me to believe that it is an entirely acceptable attitude to have.

Explainable =/= acceptable. Nobody deserves to be on the receiving end of road rage.

anncoates · 23-07-2013 03:59PM

The Noble Nudge wrote: »

Nothing funny about getting ran off the road by a 2 tonne hunk of metal with some idiot behind the wheel with only a helmet for protection. All because of an article on a radio show/paper.

QED.

Dermot Illogical · 23-07-2013 04:03PM

DirkVoodoo wrote: »

Drive along the 100 km/hr stretches of the M11/M50 and see how many people speed. Furthermore, see how many people sit right up the driver in front's ass because they aren't going quite fast enough.

Combine it with this for fun times.
http://www.thejournal.ie/illegal-car-tyres-1005149-Jul2013/

magicbastarder · 23-07-2013 04:09PM

talking about speed limits and motorways is ignoring the the places where drivers do consistently break limits, which would be 30, 50, and 60kph zones. drivers break limits in these zones because they think it's okay to do so.

PerrDub · 23-07-2013 04:18PM

Ah yes, the M50, what a nitemare. No one really has a clue how to drive correctly on that road. How there's not more crashes on that everyday I don't know. If you truly want to see road-rage then just take a drive along the road around 5pm each day. The driving test really needs to evolve to take on Motorway and dual-carraigeway driving as part of the test.
All I had to do for my test was drive around a couple of quiet roads for 20mins!

Meanwhile, more mindless driving:

Femme_Fatale · 23-07-2013 04:27PM

No Pants wrote: »

Cervélo riders? :pac:

I didn't post what you quoted there.

Whataboutery is definitely applicable to some of the stuff being said here. I don't hate cyclists, I don't agree all of them should be blamed for some of them, and I don't disagree there are obnoxious, inconsiderate, self-entitled drivers... but I'm talking about two experiences of my own in which cyclists were the ones being inconsiderate. Instances where drivers are inconsiderate to cyclists, even though they happen, aren't relevant to the situations I described, hence whataboutery.

DirkVoodoo, both roads are in the Muskerry area of County Cork - what difference does it make whether I say where they are or not?

DirkVoodoo · 23-07-2013 04:35PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

DirkVoodoo, both roads are in the Muskerry area of County Cork - what difference does it make whether I say where they are or not?

I just wanted to see the particular stretch of road. I've been overtaken before on roads with solid white lines, both safely and dangerously. I've seen a queue form behind me not directly because of me but because the driver behind didn't feel comfortable overtaking or wasn't able to do so properly.

You keep calling it inconsiderate. I'd consider it so if the road was a single track stretching for miles and there was a car behind, indeed I have pulled in before in such an instance heading towards the Wicklow Gap (I was with kenmc at the time I believe). However these other instances have happened on perfectly wide roads, yes with a few bends, but it is more down to driver incompetence rather than the cyclist.

Do you honestly expect someone to stop their bike every 15 minutes or so, pull in, clip out then move off again only to repeat the process? I'd probably just take up rollerblading.

It's not inconsiderate so please stop calling it that.

CramCycle · 23-07-2013 04:36PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

but I'm talking about two experiences of my own in which cyclists were the ones being inconsiderate.

I can't see how they were being inconsiderate? Was it inconsiderate of them to want to travel using the road system, or is it their fault their was a solid white line? It inconvenienced you but it was not inconsiderate, the only inconsiderate thing is that you seem to think that person should kneel to your whims rather than just continue on their way, safely and legally. If the following car could not choose their gearing correctly to overtake when an opportunity allowed or if the opportunity never presented itself, then it is not the cyclists fault in these scenarios.

Also I am not sure whataboutery applies in your story.

colmd · 23-07-2013 04:38PM

we need a 1metre or 1.5metre law - ie. that cars must leave that much clearance when passing bikes. And drivers need to be re-educated about the legal meaning of the unbroken white line down the centre of the road.

I cycle on the roads & lanes of Wicklow quite a lot - almost all cars that pass me do so in a dangerous or illegal manner, or both - because they refuse to 'see' the unbroken white line down the centre of the road, or don't understand what it means. The dangerous (to me) ones almost scrape my right elbow as they try to squeeze past while trying not to cross the unbroken white line. Some do so at speed, create a tailwind that blows me off course, sometimes towards the ditch, as an Alpine Coaches bus did recently.

The illegal ones do give me space, but cross over the unbroken white line (a 2 penalty points offence, AFAIK) onto the wrong side of the road, generally at speed, and often towards oncoming traffic, or approaching a blind crest or bend. The risks they're taking are simply ridiculous. I'm a motorist too, and indeed a motorsport enthusiast. In fact I've done tons of proper rallying and racing, and these folks are hugely underestimating the risks they are taking.

I now think every motorist should be forced to cycle first before getting a driving license. You have to be on the bike to really understand the effects of fast & close traffic.

cypressg · 23-07-2013 05:00PM

colmd wrote: »

In fact I've done tons of proper rallying and racing, and these folks are hugely underestimating the risks they are taking.

You mean they aren't aware of the risks they're putting you in.
There should be an ad campaign on tv,the same as the driving on motorways one,telling people how much space they're required to give a cyclist and why they should sometimes wait behind a cyclist.

Road rage against cyclists is it just me?

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