Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

I get that entirely NiallSparky, I suppose my point would be that had they held the referendum in the format I suggested (a question regarding which scenarios one would support the right to abortion in) there'd have been far less debate over the legislation currently being passed (as there'd be constitutional mandate for every scenario and no need for all the current rowing over ammendments).

Instead of solving a problem, they've simply caused a national debate over a fudge.

I certainly can't see FG bringing forward a referendum in the lifetime of this Dail as they're already losing members over the existing non-issue.

NiallSparky wrote: »

The thing is that had the current legislation went further than including suicide, it very well could've been ruled unconstitutional in a later challenge in the Supreme Court. Omitting including other clauses, while not being the right thing to do morally, it was the correct thing to do politically.

There will be a future opportunity to vote on and legislate for other cases, one would hope that that comes sooner rather than later. There's certainly a lot of public appetite for it as you say.

Yes, but abortion for fatal foetal abnormalities could also have been found to be constitutional. If it wasn't, only that section of the legislation would have been struck down.
It would have been sensible given that the government's argument in D v Ireland was that abortion was legal in Ireland for fatal foetal abnormalities. Baffling, really.

loveisdivine wrote: »

I'd love to see a pro-birther actually attempt to answer that. Unfortunately, they would no doubt direct the question away from themselves and avoid having to give an answer.

While I don't consider myself a 'pro-birther', I think trying to simplify what is a pretty complex philosophical question with Facebook riddles is as idiotic as the debate gets.

Das Kitty wrote: »

^

The propechy has come to pass.

Touché!!

But seeing as we're going with simplicity.

Same riddle, but this time a falling 6 month old baby and a falling toddler, both descending from 15 feet?
Which one do you catch?

Or better still, instead of the falling analogy, let's go Sophie's Choice.

You must shoot one of two mothers from a cannon.
One is 6 weeks pregnant.
The other is 4 months pregnant.
You decide - dun-dun-dun!!!!

Remember, the answer will speak volumes about reality!

Or, they may be ridiculous premises that actually say more about the person setting the crazy facebook riddles than about reality.

Lot's of people getting attacked for having various views..I personally want abortion to be available for all because i think it's cowardly forcing people to travel to another country for a service that's available world wide....
however i also believe that the "thing" in the womb is a baby....and i think it's lame all the skirting around the issue....yes it's a baby and yes it's abortion now get over it.

It's impossible to have a reasonable/rational debate on abortion in Ireland. Even the terms for people on either side are muddied and thrown around like accusations. For example, if you're against abortion-on-demand, you're anti-choice/pro-life. If you're for the right of a woman to choose everything to do with her body, then you're anti-life/pro-choice. Moving on from there, if you voice an opinion either way, lots of people assume that you're exactly the same as the fanatics on both sides (the "pro-life" fanatics being a lot more vocal and 'out there'). For example, you say you're pro-choice, some people assume you like killing babies in a lab. You say you're pro-life, people assume you're a hardcore Catholic who wants to interfere in women's lives and wants women to die rather than have an abortion. On top of all this, there are lots of people who don't even think that half the population (males) shouldn't even get to have a say on the matter. It's not their body, after all.

Of course, there may be people out there like the stereotypes above, they have to come from somewhere. It just wrecks my head when you get lumped in with a group when it's something that people will have highly persona views on. Personally, I'm against abortion-on-demand and here's why I think everyone should have a say (I'm male, if that matters). I'd consider myself pro-life because I think the whole thing comes down to two rights.

The right-to-life of the mother.
The right-to-life of the unborn child.

If, for some horrible circumstance, the two are conflicting, then the mother's right to life should be respected above that of the child. You can't force someone to do something that would kill them. So they should be allowed have an abortion, if it means they're going to die (either as part of the process, or from a complication down the line). This isn't even up for debate in my mind.

Once both rights can be protected, great. I don't think that it should be a choice to end the life of a foetus*, simply because you're not ready to have a child. Yes, that's not perfect, I completely agree there are times when someone shouldn't have a child - I just don't think someone else should lose a right-to-life because of that.

*Of course, it depends on when you choose to believe/if you can prove the foetus is "alive". Not many would support abortion in late term pregnancies, I suspect. So it's a question of where you draw the line, how far back you go. I don't know what the prevailing view of medical science is here, as I haven't looked it up in a while. I just feel that, once conception occurs and the zygote (? It's been a few years since JC biology) would otherwise turn into a baby - without interference such as an abortion - then it deserves the same chance we got.

This is why a lot of people don't see it as just a matter of choice. Of course, people have a right to do with their bodies what they will, but much like other aspects of life, they have to do it with respect for others as well. And in this case, people see that an abortion is affecting the "life" of another. So they can't just stand aside** and let people choose either way. I hope that explains to people who don't know why some pro-lifers can't just "stop interfering in my life" or similar sentiments, or at least promotes some sort of understanding.

** I don't know where I stand on this. I've set out what I think, but I can also easily see how people would disagree, and would have a different opinion. So I'm forced to say I'm pro life for the reasons above, but I'm not going to force that on someone else. I just don't feel comfortable doing so.

One last thing. To those that say that I'm a man and don't get an opinion, then I find that an incredibly self-centred and immature thing to believe. If I get a women pregnant, I'd like to think I'd stick around and care for my child, even if I wasn't in a relationship with the woman anymore. It's my child after all. I have certain responsibilities there - not just financial, for the cynical amongst you. If I have responsibilities, I also have to have some rights as well. You can't have one without the other.

Man, that was a lot longer a post than I had intended.

whats the difference between awoman killing her unborn child because she is suisidal and a man killing his children because he is suisidal

Scarinae wrote: »

A man has written to all the members of the Oireachtas about his experience as a parent of a child with a fatal foetal abnormality. He says he will never forgive Ireland. The journal has published his letter, it is an upsetting read

Oh my god, I'm in bits after that.

Amendment 8 must be abolished, those few words have been responsible for so much unnecessary anguish in this country.

stanley 2 wrote: »

whats the difference between awoman killing her unborn child because she is suisidal and a man killing his children because he is suisidal

This is a very simplistic view if not a shocking one.