Fixed Penalty Notices for Cycling by end of year

TheChizler · 19-07-2013 07:37PM

brian.henry wrote: »

When it's safe to go, I go. The idea of fining people just to uphold the principle of "the laws of the land" is bs.

Do you advocate this position for cars too?

CramCycle · 19-07-2013 07:40PM

brian.henry wrote: »

When it's safe to go, I go. The idea of fining people just to uphold the principle of "the laws of the land" is bs.

How do you know it's safe, who decides. You? The AGS? A nearby pedestrian who can confirm it for you?

This is Ireland, if you let people away on the pretense that if they deem it to be safe then they can do it, then you'll have the same problem that we have now, of people endangering themselves and others in some situations because they believe it is safe for them. I seriously doubt any RLJers do it thinking that it isn't safe for them. Legally it would be undo-able. Why not just follow the rules? It really won't delay you that much, it is safer, and it is what other road users should expect leading to improved safety for everyone.

Squidgy Black · 19-07-2013 07:41PM

brian.henry wrote: »

When it's safe to go, I go. The idea of fining people just to uphold the principle of "the laws of the land" is bs.

I've seen this attitude plenty of times. What happens is the cyclist thinks "great there's no one crossing at the lights here, I'll just beat the traffic," and the next hong you see is a young child running out ahead of his mother, blocked from view by the traffic in the right hand lane.

I've been unfortunate enough to see a young child about 5 years old be clattered by a man who was at least in his 40s, the child didn't seem to be too hurt, but the fella just cycled on.

Beasty · 19-07-2013 07:43PM

Lumen wrote: »

That is an astonishingly sanctimonious post. 10/10.

I'm currently in Florida where they seem to take road law enforcement very seriously. I couldn't work out why the coaches kept coming to a complete halt at deserted junctions with no traffic lights until I realised they were observing the stop signs (presumably under the threat of a hefty fine and possible loss of job).

Qualitymark · 21-07-2013 08:07AM

stetyrrell wrote: »

I've seen this attitude plenty of times. What happens is the cyclist thinks "great there's no one crossing at the lights here, I'll just beat the traffic," and the next hong you see is a young child running out ahead of his mother, blocked from view by the traffic in the right hand lane.

I've been unfortunate enough to see a young child about 5 years old be clattered by a man who was at least in his 40s, the child didn't seem to be too hurt, but the fella just cycled on.

This is so true. And in Rathmines, for instance, blind people can step out onto the pedestrian crossing in the faith that the traffic will have stopped for the pedestrian lights.

(A related child problem exists for drivers; increasingly I see drivers backing out of their driveways, unaware that a small child could be racing ahead of its parents - easily seen from the front of the car, but under the level of the back window.)

bren2001 wrote: »

I've no issue with an on the spot fine being issued for breaking lights or cycling on the path.

However, there are a couple of small sections of road that I just cannot cycle on. They are full of potholes and are extremely bumpy. The road is tight enough since there are a lot of trucks on it so I usually pop up on the path for the 100m or so. Guess I will be cycling in the middle of the road now. I look forward to the beeping motorists now.

I've found that if you email Dublin City Council's roads department with photos of a dangerously potholed road, they'll mend them and email you back, especially if you email them back and thank them the first time.

penguin88 wrote: »

How does fining cyclists for offences disproportionally hit the poor?

Cyclists are disproportionally less rich than drivers.

I see two problems with this law (though I have suggested on-the-spot fines for cyclists breaking lights and cycling dangerously myself on boards.ie):

1) A €50 fine is too high; it will make middle-class people hate the Gardaí and become reluctant to co-operate with them. A €20 fine is fair and affordable, yet irritating enough that people will pay it and go off blushing without feeling that they've been scammed by the law.

2) Unless and until the epidemic of bicycle theft is tackled, these fines will feel completely unfair: "oh yeah, you're going to fine me when I break a light without a soul around, but when i went in to report my €1,000 bike stolen the Guard just shrugged at me, looked at the proffered CCTV, said 'ah yeh we know that guy nothing we can do' and went back to his doughnut and tea".

*If* the fine were €20, and *if* there were a well-publicised and effective, and continued, drive to catch bike thieves, publicise their faces, bring them to court, give them sentences such as a week's work mending the public's bicycles for free - and to return stolen bikes to their owners - then I'd be enthusiastically for it.

AltAccount · 21-07-2013 09:31AM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Cyclists are disproportionally less rich than drivers.

Just curious, do you have ANYTHING to back up this assertion?

Raam · 21-07-2013 09:32AM

AltAccount wrote: »

Just curious, do you have ANYTHING to back up this assertion?

Yeah, I almost spit my wad of fifties out of my mouth when I read his post!

Beasty · 21-07-2013 01:25PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

1) A €50 fine is too high; it will make middle-class people hate the Gardaí and become reluctant to co-operate with them. A €20 fine is fair and affordable, yet irritating enough that people will pay it and go off blushing without feeling that they've been scammed by the law.

Currently you could be fined €200 (or more) and have to take a day off work. €50 is not a fee for using the road - it's a penalty for misusing it - if you think the fine is more than the typical cyclist can afford the solution is entirely within the cyclist's hands

Dermot Illogical · 21-07-2013 02:59PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Cyclists are disproportionally less rich than drivers.

I see two problems with this law (though I have suggested on-the-spot fines for cyclists breaking lights and cycling dangerously myself on boards.ie):

1) A €50 fine is too high; it will make middle-class people hate the Gardaí and become reluctant to co-operate with them. A €20 fine is fair and affordable, yet irritating enough that people will pay it and go off blushing without feeling that they've been scammed by the law.

2) Unless and until the epidemic of bicycle theft is tackled, these fines will feel completely unfair: "oh yeah, you're going to fine me when I break a light without a soul around, but when i went in to report my €1,000 bike stolen the Guard just shrugged at me, looked at the proffered CCTV, said 'ah yeh we know that guy nothing we can do' and went back to his doughnut and tea".

*If* the fine were €20, and *if* there were a well-publicised and effective, and continued, drive to catch bike thieves, publicise their faces, bring them to court, give them sentences such as a week's work mending the public's bicycles for free - and to return stolen bikes to their owners - then I'd be enthusiastically for it.

Cyclists are not "disproportionally less rich than drivers", and indeed some people are both.
€50 is about right, and here's the thing... If you don't break the law you won't have to pay anything at all!!! Simples.

And as for connecting it in to a push against bike theft....are you for real? You want to be able to continue breaking one law because some other law isn't getting enough attention for your liking?

bambergbike · 21-07-2013 03:18PM

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

And as for connecting it in to a push against bike theft... [...] You want to be able to continue breaking one law because some other law isn't getting enough attention for your liking?

I think the bike theft argument sounds like whataboutery. There is no direct connection between bike thieves and cyclist misbehaviour, just the very tenuous link that both involve cyclists and are dealt with (or not, as the case may be) by AGS.

But there IS a more direct connection between the offences committed day in, day out by motorists that deter cyclists from sharing space with them and the fact that some cyclists use illegal alternatives instead of sharing space with motorists. Speeding, dangerous overtaking, mobile phone use, parking in cycle lanes and so on. I have no objection to a crackdown on cyclists, but I do object to cyclists being portrayed as the only group or road users that are anything other than consistently law-abiding.

Qualitymark · 21-07-2013 03:33PM

Not in the least whataboutery, but simple psychology. If people are fined €50 for a relatively small offence (a lot for many cyclists, though perhaps not for the bloated plutocrats of Boards

while there is no action taken if their bike's stolen, the result will be contempt for the Gardaí.

Edit: I was about to put yet another rude person on the ignore list for the rude 'you want to continue breaking one law because another isn't getting enough intention for your liking', but was surprised to see that it was Dermot Illogical, so haven't.

Beasty · 21-07-2013 03:36PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Not in the least whataboutery, but simple psychology. If people are fined €50 for a relatively small offence (a lot for many cyclists, though perhaps not for the bloated plutocrats of Boards while there is no action taken if their bike's stolen, the result will be contempt for the Gardaí.

Will you please stop trying to find every opportunity to slag off the Gardai

Qualitymark · 21-07-2013 03:38PM

Beasty wrote: »

Will you please stop trying to find every opportunity to slag off the Gardai

Another ignore list candidate...

Beasty · 21-07-2013 03:42PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Another ignore list candidate...

Ignoring a mod or a mod's instructions is not a wise move

Dermot Illogical · 21-07-2013 03:55PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Edit: I was about to put yet another rude person on the ignore list for the rude 'you want to continue breaking one law because another isn't getting enough intention for your liking', but was surprised to see that it was Dermot Illogical, so haven't.

It's a surprise to me that anyone here would be surprised by my rudeness tbh.

ashleey · 21-07-2013 04:55PM

Dermot Illogical wrote: »

It's a surprise to me that anyone here would be surprised by my rudeness tbh.

That's just whataboutery.

What is 'whataboutery'?

Squidgy Black · 21-07-2013 05:43PM

Why is it that whenever threads like this come around, all the village idiots come out of their hiding holes with their nonsensical, irrelevant arguments?

Darkglasses · 21-07-2013 05:48PM

stetyrrell wrote: »

Why is it that whenever threads like this come around, all the village idiots come out of their hiding holes with their nonsensical, irrelevant arguments?

And why can't I stop reading these threads even though I hate them

Qualitymark · 21-07-2013 06:46PM

I'm surprised to find that yizzer right; cyclists tend to be better off:

(Scottish study) http://www.transportscotland.gov.uk/files/documents/roads/SAWCAR.pdf
(London study)
http://researchonline.lshtm.ac.uk/1179/1/Cycling_and_the_city_published_author_copy.pdf

Surprised because most of the cyclists I know are people who live quite frugally and are not well off. But then I don't know sports cyclists.

And of course it's possible that the poor don't cycle so much because if their bikes are stolen they can't afford to replace them, and are unlikely to get them back.

Darkglasses · 21-07-2013 06:49PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

And of course it's possible that the poor don't cycle so much because if their bikes are stolen they can't afford to replace them, and are unlikely to get them back.

Because of course, buying and running a car is cheaper than having to occasionally replace a cheap bike.

Qualitymark · 21-07-2013 06:58PM

Darkglasses wrote: »

Because of course, buying and running a car is cheaper than having to occasionally replace a cheap bike.

Car or bike is the only choice?

Raam · 21-07-2013 07:00PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Car or bike is the only choice?

Yes. You're either with us or against us.

Squidgy Black · 21-07-2013 07:00PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

And of course it's possible that the poor don't cycle so much because if their bikes are stolen they can't afford to replace them, and are unlikely to get them back.

You really have spouted some utter tripe on this thread without using any common sense.

Tax and insurance on a car per year adds up to nearly 700 euro. A second hand car will cost you the guts of 1500 euro. Fuel alone is at least 20 euro a week, or 1140 euro a year. Excl maintanence the cost of running a car per year is nearly 2000 euro and then you have to buy a car.

A decent bike and lock will set you back 450 euro, and will need little maintenance. I personally have cycled into the city centre for the last 3 years on a 500 euro bike and never had it stolen with 2 kryptonite u locks.

Essentially, stop talking absolute rubbish.

Darkglasses · 21-07-2013 07:01PM

Qualitymark wrote: »

Car or bike is the only choice?

It is where I live! I assumed that's what you were getting at, apologies if I was wrong.

Replacing a cheap bike is also cheaper than most public transport that I know of.

Qualitymark · 21-07-2013 07:23PM

Ah, where I live you see buses trundling along, and a lot of people travelling on them; you also see people walking. As you walk from the relatively well-off areas to the east of me to the very poor areas to the west, the number of houses that have cars parked outside decreases.

monument · 21-07-2013 07:27PM

ashleey wrote: »

That's just whataboutery.

What is 'whataboutery'?

http://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/whataboutery

No Pants · 21-07-2013 07:32PM

Beasty wrote: »

I'm currently in Florida where they seem to take road law enforcement very seriously. I couldn't work out why the coaches kept coming to a complete halt at deserted junctions with no traffic lights until I realised they were observing the stop signs (presumably under the threat of a hefty fine and possible loss of job).

I was stopped in California once for jaywalking. Deserted road at midnight. Cop car tucked away with lights off. Got the blues & twos, hand on the gun butt, etc. Let off when he realised I wasn't worth the paperwork.

Beasty · 21-07-2013 07:36PM

No Pants wrote: »

I was stopped in California once for jaywalking. Deserted road at midnight. Cop car tucked away with lights off. Got the blues & twos, hand on the gun butt, etc. Let off when he realised I wasn't worth the paperwork.

Did you not have some explaining to do when you told him your Boards username?:pac:

No Pants · 21-07-2013 07:43PM

Beasty wrote: »

Did you not have some explaining to do when you told him your Boards username?:pac:

Strategically placed shopping bags worked wonders.

Jawgap · 21-07-2013 08:55PM

I_NOT_A_TROLL. YOU_ARE_TROLL YE_U_ARE. wrote: »

good

Agreed

Fixed Penalty Notices for Cycling by end of year

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