Why is positive discrimination ok?

Femme_Fatale · 20-07-2013 01:43PM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Happening now in Ireland. Happening for the last seven years. People burying their head in the sand isnt helping.

In what way is it happening in Ireland? I haven't seen any evidence of people preferring to hire non white/non Irish people in the interests of looking inclusive.

Adamisconfused · 20-07-2013 01:48PM

Coincidence. I was just watching Thomas Sowell minutes ago talking about the gender and race gap. Other good videos there and his books are excellent, in some of which, he talks about the flaws in social policies that try to narrow any perceived gap and explains how he and more black people from his generation actually had a better chance thanks to a better education system in his day.
BTW, I'm not, nor was he saying that racism, sexism, etc aren't issues. If you follow his work, it's about identifying the problems and finding more successful solutions than those proposed by ivory towered elites.

Peregrine · 20-07-2013 01:49PM

A Black Policeman's Association isn't exactly discrimination towards other policemen. They're a minority in that profession, they have their own challenges, they're subject to discrimination in the community and maybe even within their office. I don't see how having an organisation for a minority is discrimination.

Honestly, it's like saying LGBT associations are discriminating towards heterosexual people.

Femme_Fatale · 20-07-2013 01:50PM

Nimrod 7 wrote: »

A Black Policeman's Association isn't exactly discrimination towards other policemen. They're a minority in that profession, they have their own challenges, they're subject to discrimination in the community and maybe even within their office. I don't see how having an organisation for a minority is discrimination.

Honestly, it's like saying LGBT associations are discriminating towards heterosexual people.

It boils down to "They have something we don't have - I want it!" like a four-year-old.

Ravelleman · 20-07-2013 01:52PM

martinedwards wrote: »

in London they have a Black Police Officer's Association.

there are women only taxi firms......

if there was a White people's police society it'd be branded Nazi, regardless of it's actual opinions.

so why is it OK for the minorities and women to be exclusive when it's not ok for majorities and men?

Just out of curiosity and since you mention these two example, have either of these organisations ever had a direct effect on you or your life? I suspect I know the answer.

It seems to me - given that it's obvious - that these associations are established by people who find that they aren't represented as well as white males in various different situations.

I don't have the statistics but I would suggest that, for example, black and Asian people are under-represented in the UK police services, hence the need for a group to promote their interests.

People would no doubt object to an association of white male police officers because it would create positive associations with the undeniable sexism and unfair practices towards minorities that have historically been present in society.

Ravelleman · 20-07-2013 01:56PM

Also, people from the Tocquevillian tradition would argue that the formation of different interest groups in civil society is a good thing for democracy.

donfers · 20-07-2013 02:20PM

desertcircus wrote: »

Is this an actual point? What exactly does a black candidate get out of being able to point to race as a possible factor? Are you claiming that white people have it hard because they don't suffer racism? Really? Because white people don't as a rule suffer racial discrimination, they're losing out? Surely you're not saying that, because only a lunatic would say that. But I still can't see any actual point. Is is that it's easier being passed over for jobs and promotions when there's a significant possibility that you're being passed over as a result of your skin colour rather than your suitability for the post?

What does a black candidate get out of not being selected that a white candidate doesn't?

I think the point is that black men can be incompetent, women can be incompetent, immigrants and minorities can be incompetent

I think the point is that sometimes sh.t happens to black men, women, immigrants, minorities etc and it's not always some patriarchal conspiracy

Nobody denies that racism, sexism etc exist

but if a straight white guy loses his job or gets thrown out of a bar or is denied a promotion or is not given a table at the restaurant or whatever he must simply shrug his shoulders and accept responsibility for what has occurred - indeed some psychologists argue that this is the case why the suicide figures are so heavily skewed towards white males, they can't blame anything else for their own inadequacies, they can't create excuses or fabricate some societal bogeyman that has it in for them when things go wrong

on the other hand black people or women or gay people or whatever always have the possibility of saying "Well, heh, that bad thing that just happened can't have been anything to do with me, it must have been racist/homophobic/misogynist etc etc"

As I said I am not denying that real cases of racism, sexism etc. exist but unfortunately it is also quite common for claims of such to exist when it doesn't - you are not perfect, life doesn't always go to 100% to plan, deal with it instead of always playing the tempting victim card "it's not me, it's you" because this kind of hysteria cheapens the genuine cases

purplepanda · 20-07-2013 02:23PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

I actually find it unreal how often this discussion comes up on the internet. How the fucck do people not understand the very simple concept of historical context? The truth is, as a white person, you are very very very unlikely to ever be discriminated against in the Western World.

So Black & White kids go to the same underfunded & overcrowded school, both live on a run down council estate plagued by numerous social problems, both come from families living on poverty incomes.

Both achieve the same grades when leaving school yet the Black kid gets positive discrimination despite the white kid coming from a very similar background?

There has always been a large amount of poor whites in society, often going back generations, yet it appears that such whites from an underprivileged background will have to pay the price for the exploitation & disgraceful treatment of Black people by the rich elites & ruling classes in society in the past.

Not all white people historically are guilty of exploitation & enslavement of Black people , I really don't see why ALL white people should share the guilt of slavery & exploitation?

Put a tax on modern companies that historically benefited from the slave trade to be invested in Black communities & nations instead.

Peregrine · 20-07-2013 02:30PM

Can I just ask..

Are we talking about minorities having associations or are we talking about positive discrimination?

Cos it's not the same ****in thing and there's two different topics being discussed here.

Minority organisations - Fine
Positive discrimination - Not fine

Pro Hoc Vice · 20-07-2013 02:44PM

purplepanda wrote: »

So Black & White kids go to the same underfunded & overcrowded school, both live on a run down council estate plagued by numerous social problems, both come from families living on poverty incomes.

Both achieve the same grades when leaving school yet the Black kid gets positive discrimination despite the white kid coming from a very similar background?

There has always been a large amount of poor whites in society, often going back generations, yet it appears that such whites from an underprivileged background will have to pay the price for the exploitation & disgraceful treatment of Black people by the rich elites & ruling classes in society in the past.

Not all white people historically are guilty of exploitation & enslavement of Black people , I really don't see why ALL white people should share the guilt of slavery & exploitation?

Put a tax on modern companies that historically benefited from the slave trade to be invested in Black communities & nations instead.

Hence why in the US with recent SC case, there is a move away from positive discrimination based on race and towards class, so if two poor people are going a a college place one back and one white it's who ever is best, if both the same colour then the one from a poorer background may get it. The system is not perfect but it's aims are good unlike the system it's trying to overthrow.

Pro Hoc Vice · 20-07-2013 02:50PM

Sandy Vagina wrote: »

Positive discrimination is a bull**** term for racism and it doesn't work.

Jobs and positions should be based on merit and not the colour of skin.

In south africa they fired all the CEOs of public service business' and replaced them with a bunch of unqualified black people. Guess what happened? ?? Multi-million dollaf profitable companies were turned into basket cases swimming in debt.

Can you link to any source for your claim re South Africa. My understanding is SA is a growth economy, accounts for 1/4 of all of Africa's GDP, is still a society where far more black, coloured and Asians live in poverty than whites.

crockholm · 20-07-2013 03:03PM

Femme_Fatale wrote: »

It boils down to "They have something we don't have - I want it!" like a four-year-old.

Exactly,like what minorities are looking for;)

I really don't care if there is a black policemans assoc.,or muslim bakers social club,or jewish carpenters crew, we have freedom of assembly and they can choose to be part of whatever lawful organisation they wish to belong to.

However,should a city or company pass up on they most capable applicants for the job due to prejudice,that is wrong.People deserve they best firemen to help them in their hour of need,the best and most capable pilots to steer and land the airplane.

Femme_Fatale · 20-07-2013 03:11PM

crockholm wrote: »

Exactly,like what minorities are looking for;)

They've been looking for stuff that's a tad more important than a policeman's club.

Nodin · 20-07-2013 03:19PM

martinedwards wrote: »

in London they have a Black Police Officer's Association.

there are women only taxi firms......

if there was a White people's police society it'd be branded Nazi, regardless of it's actual opinions.

so why is it OK for the minorities and women to be exclusive when it's not ok for majorities and men?

None of that is positive discrimination.

woodoo · 20-07-2013 03:25PM

Nodin wrote: »

None of that is positive discrimination.

You are like a fly to s**t nodin.

Nodin · 20-07-2013 03:26PM

woodoo wrote: »

You are like a fly to s**t nodin.

Aye, but rather the fly than the shite.

TheLastMohican · 20-07-2013 03:30PM

Can we not have a Negapositive Discriminatory Board? For something like the ICA (Irish Countrywomen's Association) where only men were allowed to join? Or the Seamen's Mission where only Seamen women were allowed to stay?

Galwayguy35 · 20-07-2013 03:36PM

desertcircus wrote: »

if you're born black in America, you're less likely to go to college and have a white collar job and more likely to go to prison and die violently than someone born white, and it's not because you're inherently inferior. .

And whos fault is it if a black person ends up in prison?

Thats a choice they made and its certainly not societies fault they decide to rob or kill someone.

Christ the Redeemer · 20-07-2013 03:36PM

DEFTLEFTHAND wrote: »

The minorities are becoming the majorities. Many people of course voted back in Obama because of the colour of his skin..

Black votes stayed pretty stable for the last good few elections. 89-93% democratic.

White votes towards the GOP candidate actually saw more change during the Obama elections. The whole story about blacks voting for Obama is an absolute fantasy story cooked up by the right wing press.

Christ the Redeemer · 20-07-2013 03:38PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

And whos fault is it if a black person ends up in prison?

Thats a choice they made and its certainly not societies fault they decide to rob or kill someone.

Many studies have proved that the US justice system pretty much consistently punished black people with longer sentences for comparable crimes as white people. They are also targeted by police more than white people too.

Petit Apartheid.

Nodin · 20-07-2013 03:42PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

And whos fault is it if a black person ends up in prison?

Thats a choice they made and its certainly not societies fault they decide to rob or kill someone.

.....which ignores discriminatory sentencing - eg
http://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-reform/marijuana-arrests-numbers

Galwayguy35 · 20-07-2013 03:44PM

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Many studies have proved that the US justice system pretty much consistently punished black people with longer sentences for comparable crimes as white people. They are also targeted by police more than white people too.

Petit Apartheid.

Maybe, but not the point I was making, which is that they decided to commit the crime in the first place.

Don't do the crime and you won't do the time.

Nodin · 20-07-2013 03:45PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Maybe, but not the point I was making, which is that they decided to commit the crime in the first place.

Don't do the crime and you won't do the time.

.....white people commit the crime at the same rate, yet don't do the time....
http://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-reform/marijuana-arrests-numbers

Galwayguy35 · 20-07-2013 03:47PM

Nodin wrote: »

.....which ignores discriminatory sentencing - eg
http://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-reform/marijuana-arrests-numbers

Well if they weren't smoking pot they would have had nothing to worry about.

Galwayguy35 · 20-07-2013 03:50PM

Nodin wrote: »

.....white people commit the crime at the same rate, yet don't do the time....
http://www.aclu.org/criminal-law-reform/marijuana-arrests-numbers

I'm not disputing that point.

What I am saying is every person starts out with a clean slate, obey the law and you'll stay out of prison.

Christ the Redeemer · 20-07-2013 03:50PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

Well if they weren't smoking pot they would have had nothing to worry about.

Good god..

Galwayguy35 · 20-07-2013 03:51PM

Christ the Redeemer wrote: »

Good god..

Yes?

Smoking pot is illegal.

Peregrine · 20-07-2013 03:56PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

obey the law and you'll stay out of prison.

Or in this case, be white?

Are you seriously suggesting that's not a problem? I know there are criminals in both groups but raids and arrests on one group being 4 times more than the other is not something that can be ignored. Yes they were both criminals but criminals on one side is almost being let away.

Nodin · 20-07-2013 03:58PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

I'm not disputing that point.

What I am saying is every person starts out with a clean slate, obey the law and you'll stay out of prison.

....so rather than address the facts - that prosectution & sentencing is based on race, which contradicts your original premise - you keep firing out the same line. Lovely.

Killer Wench · 20-07-2013 04:02PM

Quotas? I'd love to hear more about quotas, especially in the United States.

Why is positive discrimination ok?

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