Cancer sufferers no longer receiving medical cards unless deemed terminal

BerryBlue · 12-07-2013 12:49AM

Next they'll be saying, well actually your terminal and will probably die anyway, so no medical card for you...

TheChizler · 12-07-2013 12:49AM

Some people I've been talking to think that the medical card is being taken away if you get non-terminal cancer, but AFAIK it's just being removed from the list of exemptions where you could get it even if you wouldn't qualify for a card after means testing. If you qualify for a medical card for any other reason, be it low-income or otherwise, it will still cover you for non-terminal cancer treatment.

NegativeCreep · 12-07-2013 12:52AM

lonestargirl wrote: »

For non-medical card holders the cost of public care is: €750 a year for hospital admissions + up to €144 a month for medication. That's what your treatment would cost you.

That's way underestimated I think. My dad has to get hormone injections because of prostate cancer and that'd be 300 euro every month if he didn't have the medical card.

He'll be fecked now.

Ave Sodalis · 12-07-2013 12:55AM

TheChizler wrote: »

Some people I've been talking to think that the medical card is being taken away if you get non-terminal cancer, but AFAIK it's just being removed from the list of exemptions where you could get it even if you wouldn't qualify for a card after means testing. If you qualify for a medical card for any other reason, be it low-income or otherwise, it will still cover you for non-terminal cancer treatment.

Yes, but cancer treatment is costly and many people may not be able to afford it, even if they do not qualify for a medical card. This isn't just a simple trip to the doctor for a check up. This is possibly years worth of medical treatment, hospital bills, travel expenses... heck, it's difficult enough to survive cancer without having to worry whether or not you can afford it.

jhegarty · 12-07-2013 12:57AM

NegativeCreep wrote: »

That's way underestimated I think. My dad has to get hormone injections because of prostate cancer and that'd be 300 euro every month if he didn't have the medical card.

He'll be fecked now.

There is a €144 cap on drug costs , even if you don't have a medical card.

carzony · 12-07-2013 12:58AM

The only people this country cares about are the rich. I feel sick after reading the articles. How the likes of James Reilly, Enda kenny can sleep at night is beyond me.

This country really needs to start taking no BS from these politicians. Why no serious protesting has gone on is beyond me. 400,000 people unemployed and then add in all the sick people and you have a pretty good protest

:D

NegativeCreep · 12-07-2013 01:01AM

jhegarty wrote: »

There is a €144 cap on drug costs , even if you don't have a medical card.

Ah, that I didn't know! Thank god for that!

UCDVet · 12-07-2013 01:01AM

I know this is a really sensitive topic and all, but, as much as it sucks we should try to be objective.

As horrific as it is to have something like cancer, if you run the numbers, how viable is it to provide everyone with top-notch care?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-obesity-and-smoking-do-not-cost-health-care-systems-money/

Just as an example - and remember these are old numbers, for people who lived their entire life....we have more treatment options, more diagnostics tools, and all of it costs a lot more money.

From age 20 until death....
The lifetime costs were in Euros for a 'Healthy' person was 281,000. That's not someone with a serious medical condition, that's a healthy person. 281k euro.

How much does the median person earn in Ireland, in their lifetime? We're talking about working 40-50 years - with another 20 spent in retirement, and each of us that does work needs to set aside, on average, 281k just for our medical treatment.....collecting taxes and then using those funds to pay it doesn't magically make it cost less.

A typical worker needs to set aside 6.2k euro per year to cover those costs...and that's a really, really low number given skyrocketting healthcare costs and that not everyone works. And we're just talking about *one* aspect of services we want from our government.

It's really easy to say, 'Everyone should get amazing medical care, all the time, by highly trained professionals, without waiting...'; but the costs are huge. And when really get down to it, everything we spend has to come from somewhere. And the same people saying everyone should get medical care also think we should have top-notch education and transportation and garda/fire and everything else.

I know someone will respond and say, 'Well X get paid too much!' and I agree. But when you talk about it in percentages of the total budget most of the stuff we can all agree is waste...turns out to be relatively small.

And then someone else is going to say, 'Well, we spend X on Y and even though we get poor service, it's just the lazy, inefficient government screwing it up....' and I can mostly agree. But most of the time, when you really dig into it, there are real limitations behind these issues. The Garda don't take 40 minutes to respond because they are evil, lazy, cold-hearted people - they take 40 minutes to respond because they only have so many staff on hand and they have lots of calls to respond to. They take them as best as they can.

The tax burden for people in Ireland is already pretty high, and it's only getting worse from what I can gather. I can only fathom what the tax rates would be like if we were paying what it would cost to get the level of service people seem to expect.

TheChizler · 12-07-2013 01:05AM

sup_dude wrote: »

Yes, but cancer treatment is costly and many people may not be able to afford it, even if they do not qualify for a medical card. This isn't just a simple trip to the doctor for a check up. This is possibly years worth of medical treatment, hospital bills, travel expenses... heck, it's difficult enough to survive cancer without having to worry whether or not you can afford it.

Oh yeah I'm aware it's incredibly expensive, I was making that point against people who thought the card would be automatically torn up if you got cancer.

Ave Sodalis · 12-07-2013 01:05AM

UCDVet wrote: »

I know this is a really sensitive topic and all, but, as much as it sucks we should try to be objective.

As horrific as it is to have something like cancer, if you run the numbers, how viable is it to provide everyone with top-notch care?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-obesity-and-smoking-do-not-cost-health-care-systems-money/

Just as an example - and remember these are old numbers, for people who lived their entire life....we have more treatment options, more diagnostics tools, and all of it costs a lot more money.

From age 20 until death....
The lifetime costs were in Euros for a 'Healthy' person was 281,000. That's not someone with a serious medical condition, that's a healthy person. 281k euro.

How much does the median person earn in Ireland, in their lifetime? We're talking about working 40-50 years - with another 20 spent in retirement, and each of us that does work needs to set aside, on average, 281k just for our medical treatment.....collecting taxes and then using those funds to pay it doesn't magically make it cost less.

A typical worker needs to set aside 6.2k euro per year to cover those costs...and that's a really, really low number given skyrocketting healthcare costs and that not everyone works. And we're just talking about *one* aspect of services we want from our government. Just one.

It's really easy to say, 'Everyone should get amazing medical care, all the time, by highly trained professionals, without waiting...'; but the costs are huge. And when really get down to it, everything we spend has to come from somewhere. And the same people saying everyone should get medical care also think we should have top-notch education and transportation and garda/fire and everything else.

I know someone will respond and say, 'Well X get paid too much!' and I agree. But when you talk about it in percentages of the total budget most of the stuff we can all agree is waste...turns out to be relatively small.

And then someone else is going to say, 'Well, we spend X on Y and even though we get poor service, it's just the lazy, inefficient government screwing it up....' and I can mostly agree. But most of the time, when you really dig into it, there are real limitations behind these issues. The Garda don't take 40 minutes to respond because they are evil, lazy, cold-hearted people - they take 40 minutes to respond because they only have so many staff on hand and they have lots of calls to respond to. They take them as best as they can.

The tax burden for people in Ireland is already pretty high, and it's only getting worse from what I can gather. I can only fathom what the tax rates would be like if we were paying what it would cost to get the level of service people seem to expect.

You're a vet, you'll not have to worry :P

Anyway, with regard to the above, I would not mind paying higher taxes if I knew that the money from those taxes are going back into the country, mainly through education and healthcare. These are two of the most important aspects in a country. I think, we would do well taking a leaf out of Holland's book.

wil · 12-07-2013 01:57AM

Svetti Arss wrote: »

My 9 YO son has cancer. He was very near death by the time he was diagnosed and although he is well into his treatment there is no guarantee he will survive and it will be another 7 years at least before he can be declared cancer free if we are lucky.

We thought we had problems (Financial Etc..) but we were very wrong. Childhood cancer is not the same as adult cancer and its a ****ing nightmare. I have never seen children suffer so much in my life. 21 out of 25 children being treated in St. johns 5 years ago did not make it.

Reilly should take a stroll through St.Johns ward - deafness, blindness, and limbs amputated are not common occurrences but they do happen and these can be caused by the treatment rather then the cancer itself. My sons medical card is due to be renewed in 2 months. Great another ****ing thing to worry about. I am very very grateful for the treatment and care received in CCH but to this government we are just cells on a spreadsheet. They dont give a ****.

I absolutely feel for you, childhood cancer is just plain sh1tty, there's no other words for it.

It's one thing for someone who has lived their life to be struck down, it's something else when an entire family is knocked off their feet and their lives blown apart by a child's diagnosis, someone who should have their whole life ahead of them and you are there to protect. It is hard enough to hold it together and keep down a job without having to worry about money to treat these most precious people in the world.
I've been there and that's enough about me.
(Before you read on, I am aware of a new cancer ward opened just very recently funded mostly by the same people who needed it)

But then you are shown the indignity of that ward they call St Johns, a cruel remnant of the wards from the 1950s, small dingy, cramped, at the far end of Crumlin, forgotten, where nobody goes unless they have received the worst news in the world.

But the consultants, good and all as they were, had their offices in that shiny glass tower, built as long as I remember. That got funding long ago.

I had the home phone numbers of some of the top paediatric oncologists in the world, and their time given freely, but for our own local consultants, their secretaries or liaison nurses are the only conduits for communication.

We have a mixed up and confused self loathing medical system which time and again been shown to have massive failings and successive ministers have put the wrong people first.

I have the utmost respect for those at the frontline of this most difficult profession, the nurses, doctors, therapists, etc who themselves are frustrated and unheard because they are too busy doing what they signed up for, their job.
Administrators, accountants and politicians rarely here the cries of children.

If O'Reilly had worked the wards day to day in St Johns rather than a surgery in Lusk and benefiting from tax breaks on his 13 bed stately home, and involvements in nursing homes he might now be putting a little more interest in those most deserving of a very, very small break.:mad:

SandraRomain · 12-07-2013 04:00AM

That just makes me sad

I know how hard it is to live your last days living with cancer and all the medical care that patients receive is expensive but that is just new low for me.

Hank Scorpio · 12-07-2013 04:48AM

If this was any other country the bank henchmen and politicians who caused this mess would have been hung out to dry a long time ago. Bertie Ahern still walks about freely with his smug grin ffs. At least Greece had the balls to retaliate. Us Irish, myself included are far too soft for our own good, it allows the corruptness of our Government and overall backwardness of the way things are operated in this country to continue

Ah but sure, it`ll be grand. Those Fianna Fail **** can rot in hell, nothing but beady eyed money whoring con men, Fine Gael aren't doing much better, incredibly ruthless disgusting decision

apollo8 · 12-07-2013 05:02AM

UCDVet wrote: »

I know this is a really sensitive topic and all, but, as much as it sucks we should try to be objective.

As horrific as it is to have something like cancer, if you run the numbers, how viable is it to provide everyone with top-notch care?

http://www.forbes.com/sites/timworstall/2012/03/22/alcohol-obesity-and-smoking-do-not-cost-health-care-systems-money/

Just as an example - and remember these are old numbers, for people who lived their entire life....we have more treatment options, more diagnostics tools, and all of it costs a lot more money.

From age 20 until death....
The lifetime costs were in Euros for a 'Healthy' person was 281,000. That's not someone with a serious medical condition, that's a healthy person. 281k euro.

How much does the median person earn in Ireland, in their lifetime? We're talking about working 40-50 years - with another 20 spent in retirement, and each of us that does work needs to set aside, on average, 281k just for our medical treatment.....collecting taxes and then using those funds to pay it doesn't magically make it cost less.

A typical worker needs to set aside 6.2k euro per year to cover those costs...and that's a really, really low number given skyrocketting healthcare costs and that not everyone works. And we're just talking about *one* aspect of services we want from our government.

It's really easy to say, 'Everyone should get amazing medical care, all the time, by highly trained professionals, without waiting...'; but the costs are huge. And when really get down to it, everything we spend has to come from somewhere. And the same people saying everyone should get medical care also think we should have top-notch education and transportation and garda/fire and everything else.

I know someone will respond and say, 'Well X get paid too much!' and I agree. But when you talk about it in percentages of the total budget most of the stuff we can all agree is waste...turns out to be relatively small.

And then someone else is going to say, 'Well, we spend X on Y and even though we get poor service, it's just the lazy, inefficient government screwing it up....' and I can mostly agree. But most of the time, when you really dig into it, there are real limitations behind these issues. The Garda don't take 40 minutes to respond because they are evil, lazy, cold-hearted people - they take 40 minutes to respond because they only have so many staff on hand and they have lots of calls to respond to. They take them as best as they can.

The tax burden for people in Ireland is already pretty high, and it's only getting worse from what I can gather. I can only fathom what the tax rates would be like if we were paying what it would cost to get the level of service people seem to expect.

TLDR version UCDVet tries to justify this outrageous cutback.

The Aussie · 12-07-2013 06:49AM

Is James Reilly not breaking the Hippocratic Oath by bringing in this new one???

Crap Doctor who bears a resemblance to another Doctor, a young Dr Harold Shipman.

pow wow · 12-07-2013 07:12AM

My dad is in recent remission (fingers crossed) from aggressive leukemia but still on weekly chemotherapy and got a letter a few weeks ago saying he'd been selected for a 'random' medical card review....you can guess what happened. To say he and my mother are distraught is putting it very mildly, and to be honest a little bit of honesty from the HSE wouldn't have gone astray. Making them jump through hoops filling out form after form, getting letters from Revenue, consultants, their GP, anyone else you can think of etc. at their age knowing full well they were going to take it away (they had gotten the medical card on illness grounds, not income) is what makes my blood boil. The money isn't there anymore, I get that, and my parents are lucky that they will be able to fund the treatment for now. But this underhanded way of withdrawing the cards is truly disgusting.

clairefontaine · 12-07-2013 07:32AM

Does this apply to children too?

professore · 12-07-2013 07:44AM

jhegarty wrote: »

There is a €144 cap on drug costs , even if you don't have a medical card.

Not all drugs are covered though, they have to be approved first. For example the MS drug Tysabri - one of the very few that actually works - is not covered.

12-07-2013 07:57AM

apollo8 wrote: »

TLDR version UCDVet tries to justify this outrageous cutback.

I'm sure that if you actually had any logical argument against anything he/she said, you'd have said that rather than just trying to shame the poster.

There's a lot of sensitivity about cancer - the word itself, because so many people have been affected by it, either through having it, or through loved ones having it. It used to be a near death sentence, but now there are far larger chances of survival for certain types if caught at the right time. Two of my aunts have survived breast cancer, one of them had to do it twice. I'm expecting test results next Monday, and the main thing I'm worried about is being told I have cancer.

But that's where the term "The Big C" comes from - the tip toeing that goes around that scary word. But realistically can you justify stretching already exhausted resources for cancer, while patients with other non-terminal serious illnesses don't get such help?

RiverOfLove · 12-07-2013 08:10AM

I know a couple who have a child with a disability and from the outside looking in it might appear with two working parents that would be able to afford medical for the child. When a baby the child got a medical card and without they would be fcuked.

I know its different from cancer but still on the same page.

This new thing described in the op will catch many people mainly those working on low incomes, who don't qualify for a medical card and can't afford insurance and a trip to the doctor or the dentist is enough to break the bank.

RiverOfLove · 12-07-2013 08:17AM

That clause on not granting a medical card to a new cancer sufferer unless it's terminal is so fcuked up.

I don't know much about cancer but I would imagine if I was to come down with terminal cancer, there'd be no point in getting any treatment because it would just leave me and my last weeks or months or however long very sick and ill.

apollo8 · 12-07-2013 08:18AM

true-or-false wrote: »

I'm sure that if you actually had any logical argument against anything he/she said, you'd have said that rather than just trying to shame the poster.

Read his post the only logical conclusion is he supports this latest obscene cutback.

There's a lot of sensitivity about cancer - the word itself, because so many people have been affected by it, either through having it, or through loved ones having it. It used to be a near death sentence, but now there are far larger chances of survival for certain types if caught at the right time. Two of my aunts have survived breast cancer, one of them had to do it twice. I'm expecting test results next Monday, and the main thing I'm worried about is being told I have cancer.

But that's where the term "The Big C" comes from - the tip toeing that goes around that scary word. But realistically can you justify stretching already exhausted resources for cancer, while patients with other non-terminal serious illnesses don't get such help

?

Yes it can be justified as the right thing to do as would extending it to other illness's

On a personal note best of luck with your results

Akrasia · 12-07-2013 08:28AM

This craven government got into power by promising a move towards free universal healthcare
They made this promise knowing about the economic collapse and the bailout program

Since they have gotten into Power, James Reilly hasn't even spoke to the GPs about how such a system might be implemented, and every move they have made has been towards restricting access to public healthcare to people at the margins (who are barely scraping by on meagre incomes)

Good work Fine Geal. Lying scumbags

Not a single penny will go to the bankers they said. How many billions have they given them since then?

Good work Labour, Fine Geal had the numbers to form a government themselves. Labour should never have gone into coalition with them, they were not the balance of power, they had zero power. If Fine Gael had been forced to form a single party government with a narrow majority, they would have already collapsed by now, and the subsequent election would have seen a massive increase in the Labour vote, and they would have had the chance to implement a less right wing agenda.

Balmed Out · 12-07-2013 08:36AM

People with cancer have never automatically gotten a medical card.

BeerWolf · 12-07-2013 09:10AM

So money goes to someone that's deemed dead already by the state, so they only want to temporarily pay out to someone that's dead soon... how sick.

brandon_flowers · 12-07-2013 09:20AM

"In some cases this was because the person had cancer. In the past cancer struck terror into the heart of people and the prognosis was very poor.

"It is now a very different condition and ranges from being a desperate diagnosis to not such a bad diagnosis at all."

The words of Dr. James Reilly. I don't care if I get banned for this but what an inconsiderate dickhead. How the **** is any cancer diagnosis "not such a bad diagnosis at all"?? It's not like a head cold where you take two Lemsip and spend a day in bed. Of all the Ministers for Health there have been you would expect a doctor to have had some sense of cop on and make rational decisions, not this clown though. He is fast becoming the worst Health Minister of them all.

travis1976 · 12-07-2013 09:23AM

These cutbacks have been going on for ages, my wife who suffers from a serious back injury, has had her invalidity pension cut, because she isin't deemed a serious enough case, but according to her doctors and specialists, she is found to be unable to work. It's a F*&%in joke, especially when I see people around town who are suffering from "depression" getting full benefits, (these are people who I know, as opposed to hearsay). The government just cut all cases accross the board, if less than 5 yrs on pension. Who's going to employ someone with a serious back condition. She has a medical card, but we have had to pay privately to see specialists, because of the waiting lists, throw €150 on the table and suddenly a spot on the list frees up. This country is banjaxed, and the sooner we can get out the better. Grrrr, apologies for the slightly off-topic rant, but I needed to vent.

Lofty123 · 12-07-2013 09:35AM

As a self employed person who is barely hanging on, trying to pay my bills on time, a concept which appears to be alien to most of my customers, this is the last straw.

I have struggled to keep my business going through my cancer, 35 round trips of 120 miles just for the radiotherapy alone. The primary site of my cancer was never found, so I don't know if I have been cured.

When first diagnosed I could have claimed on my insurance and walked away from my debts, but chose to carry on as it seemed the right thing to do. In hindsight I was a fool. Developers, bankers and crooked politicians have walked away owing billions and people like me have been picking up the pieces.

My medical card expires in November. I have worked all my life. I and my young family had to leave Ireland in the last recession to find work.
I now feel like joining the ranks of those who don't want to work, have never worked and never will. As a sole trader I would be better off financially, loose the stress of not having a regular income and not have to pander to the whims of the arrogant b*****s that are most of my customers.

I can hear the sound of high horses being saddled already, but I have had enough!! I voted for this government, I knew that difficult choices had to be made, but penalizing carers and cancer patients wasn't in their manifestos. Shame on all of them. I don't think I will vote again in the foreseeable future, I no longer trust the big parties and voting for Ming Flanagan, Mick Wallace etc is a complete and utter waste of time.

Before the inevitable preachers point out that people died to secure the right to vote, I don't think that this is the fair and just society that they fought for.

WAKE UP PEOPLE, we are being screwed, universal healthcare my ar*e.

fishy fishy · 12-07-2013 09:43AM

lonestargirl wrote: »

For non-medical card holders the cost of public care is: €750 a year for hospital admissions + up to €144 a month for medication. That's what your treatment would cost you.

which totals probably the equivalent of a nice "fat cat" meal out for our dear leaders. And yet they decide to take it from people riddled with sickness and worry. stay classy FG and Labour (and the rest).

SEPT 23 1989 · 12-07-2013 09:54AM

How much lower can they actually go?:mad:

Cancer sufferers no longer receiving medical cards unless deemed terminal

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