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Anyone following Paul Kimages' TdF video diary? **Mod Warning OP**

245

Comments

  • #32
    nak
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,538 ✭✭✭nak


    Hermy wrote: »
    The way things have gone in the sport you'd think riders would be going out of their way to condemn the dopers. Their reluctance to do so does not inspire confidence that things have actually changed.

    I think as far as some riders are concerned you're damned if you do and damned if you don't. Some journalists these days only seem to be interested in the doping story. I think that time and money should be spent on testing the athletes competing today and not retesting samples from the past, especially those of the dead.


  • #33
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    nak wrote: »
    I think as far as some riders are concerned you're damned if you do...

    Why so?

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #34
    mcgratheoin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭mcgratheoin


    Hermy wrote: »
    Why so?

    Because the more you comment on dopers, the more you become the go to guy for quotes about dopers and the less the media want to talk about your cycling. Plus sooner or later you're going to have to stand up and comment on a friend or team mate and you're going to get lambasted if you don't say the same thing about him as you did about Danilo di Luca...


  • #35
    Hermy
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 11,806 Mod ✭✭✭✭Hermy


    mcgratheoin wrote: »
    Because the more you comment on dopers, the more you become the go to guy for quotes about dopers and the less the media want to talk about your cycling. Plus sooner or later you're going to have to stand up and comment on a friend or team mate and you're going to get lambasted if you don't say the same thing about him as you did about Danilo di Luca...

    Fair point.

    I'm looking for a collective stance from the pro peloton, a clear message that doping is wrong and has no place in the sport. The continued absence of this is worrying for cycling and flies in the face of the repeated line that it's all in the past, let's move on.

    Genealogy Forum Mod



  • #36
    Jawgap
    Closed Accounts Posts: 20,296 ✭✭✭✭Jawgap


    It may be a bit of a red herring, but the swimming guy Sky took on as a coach has spoken in the past of the lack of coaching in cycling relative to other sports.

    One of Sky's 'revolutionary' ideas was to provide constant one-on-one coaching to each rider - something it seems a lot of the other teams don't do or only do it sporadically. Perhaps it's that kind of attention and focus that helps riders come through, or quickly identifies what their strengths are and where they might be best applied.


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  • #37
    ROK ON
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,831 ✭✭✭ROK ON


    To clarify my issue was not the questioning of where CF has come from as a cyclist. It was the continued reference to EBH when the athlete was in the room the day before the tour begun.

    I think the line of questioning persued by Kimmage and the manner o that questioning was very disrespectful to the athlete and effectively accused him of being all washed up.
    Personally I think that is unfair and I thought it was grandstanding a bit.
    I think Kimmage has begun to take a hectoring and abusive stance in questions.

    In the past he was aware if evidence. He was aware of the cover ups. It was not circumstantial.

    I do nit see that he has anything other than hunch nowadays. I'm sorry even if there is doping going on without evidence you need to STFU.


  • #38
    Captain Havoc
    Moderators, Sports Moderators, Regional South East Moderators Posts: 11,393 Mod ✭✭✭✭Captain Havoc


    I wouldn't have been so calm if I was Brailsford. The question about EBH was well out of order.

    https://ormondelanguagetours.com

    Walking Tours of Kilkenny in English, French or German.



  • #39
    mcgratheoin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭mcgratheoin


    Jawgap wrote: »
    It may be a bit of a red herring, but the swimming guy Sky took on as a coach has spoken in the past of the lack of coaching in cycling relative to other sports.

    Very good point - it's only perhaps somebody from outside the sport who could see issues like that - here's a bit of what Tim Kerrison had to say.
    In the previous era of cycling, I guess the teams did a cost-benefit analysis and the best way to invest their limited amount of resource for some teams was to invest in doctors and doping programmes, and coaching suffered. That's left a window of opportunity for us. Quite uniquely, in this sport the development of coaching systems has been retarded by the effects of the last decade.

    It's still a shock how unstructured a lot of other riders and teams are. Swimmers very rarely do anything without a coach, rowing a bit more, but in cycling a huge amount of training is done without a coach. The concept of coaching seems to be hit and miss: some teams have a coach; some teams leave their riders to their own devices; in some the directeurs sportifs oversee what they do between races but we know it's hard for them.

    @ROK ON - Agree completely on Kimmage being out of line towards EBH


  • #40
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Well, it was more exciting than the preceding question. "Your Holiness Sir Doctor Brailsford, you have been incredibly awesome up until this point. How do you plan to continue the Magnificence of Team Sky?" <Genuflect>

    YYAAAAAAAAAAAAAAWWWWWWWWWWWWNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNNN

    Maybe there's a balance to be struck somewhere in between the 2 approaches.


  • #41
    RobFowl
    Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 11,683 Mod ✭✭✭✭RobFowl


    petethedrummer wrote: »
    Maybe there's a balance to be struck somewhere in between the 2 approaches.

    +1


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  • #42
    Morrisseeee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,152 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    RobFowl wrote: »
    Trust is gone a long time. It's up to riders and teams to prove that they are clean.
    Unpalatable for many but simply the truth.

    And indeed it is the truth and a very good point raised, what are pro riders & teams doing to prove their 'clean-ness' ?
    When Froome is removed from Bikepure's list of endorsed riders because he (Sky) won't release his performance data, actions like this only add petrol to the 'he must be doping' fire (or at the very least doesn't enhance his trust as a clean rider).

    Actually, personally speaking, I'd like to see this happening in the future, ie. all pro riders must release their data, HR, speed, power etc. Examples like the Pro's on Strava, the Pro's that submit their data every so often to SRM.de, to the Garmin site etc, why do we not see the top guys doing it ?? it can't be just for race tactics, that's too simple of an excuse.

    As for Kimmage's Q on Sky/EBH/Froome, it's a totally valid Q, and I don't see why people are saying he can only ask it at a certain time :confused:

    FWIW I never rated EBH as a future GT contender, I always imagined he'd go down the classics route.

    Edit: I see some are saying Kimmage's EBH Q is totally out of order, out of order me arse, EBH is a grown man, Sky are a very professional team, the Q is a valid one, so Kimmage should have gotten a very professional answer, and in fact the way they did answer it only adds fuel to the 'Sky are doping' bandwagon-firestarters.
    My Q to ye is: is Sky's policy on the media, where they are only able to ask 'certain' Qs, totally out of order ?


  • #43
    petethedrummer
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,604 ✭✭✭petethedrummer


    Morrisseeee wrote: »
    Edit: I see some are saying Kimmage's EBH Q is totally out of order, out of order me arse, EBH is a grown man, Sky are a very professional team, the Q is a valid one, so Kimmage should have gotten a very professional answer, and in fact the way they did answer it only adds fuel to the 'Sky are doping' bandwagon-firestarters.
    My Q to ye is: is Sky's policy on the media, where they are only able to ask 'certain' Qs, totally out of order ?

    Another example of Sky not being able to handle something that has not been planned for.:pac:


    If they normally planned for 1 dump a day would team sky just sh!t their pants if they needed a second.


  • #44
    mcgratheoin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,461 ✭✭✭mcgratheoin


    Morrisseeee wrote: »
    it can't be just for race tactics, that's too simple of an excuse.

    From Sky's point of view - it's not at all an excuse. If you look at the way they rode the tour last year in the mountains, then knowing what a rival's power numbers are is a huge advantage. If they know that their rider can ride at a higher threshold, or even the same threshold, then they can set up their team at that level and nobody can attack and stay away. If they don't know whether an attacker can jump clear and stay clear, then they have to mark the breaks. That's a massive difference in how they would have to approach a stage.


  • #45
    Morrisseeee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,152 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    mcgratheoin wrote: »
    From Sky's point of view - it's not at all an excuse. If you look at the way they rode the tour last year in the mountains, then knowing what a rival's power numbers are is a huge advantage. If they know that their rider can ride at a higher threshold, or even the same threshold, then they can set up their team at that level and nobody can attack and stay away. If they don't know whether an attacker can jump clear and stay clear, then they have to mark the breaks. That's a massive difference in how they would have to approach a stage.

    They all know each other's power, they all have power meters, they ride with each other pretty much all year, they ride the climbs side-by-side (for the majority of the climb) so there's no outstanding advantage there. The only time you would gain a huge advantage is knowing when your adversaries are on a bad day, but looking at yesterday's data is not going to help you there, it'd be mere speculation.


  • #46
    Morrisseeee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,152 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    Inside the mind of Dave Brailsford

    An interesting article (from May 2011) and it also has an interesting graph.


  • #47
    Fr D Maugire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    mcgratheoin wrote: »
    I'd have to disagree that Froome's transformation is bigger than Armstrong - just because you're a top rider doesn't make it less of a transformation into a GC contender - Armstrong was a classics man, a one-day racer who won the world championship. It'd be like Phillipe Gilbert turning up and winning a grand tour next season.

    It's also worth considering the lack of any decent coaching that Froome had as a developing rider coming from South Africa. Stick him in the UK instead of Jo'burg as a teenager and he ends up in the GB cycling programme and progressing a lot earlier than he actually did. Essentially he didn't turn pro till his last year in university - who knows whether he actually trained to his full ability while studying? Couple that to his bilharzia infection and his progress from age 22 to 28 actually looks quite steady.




    Putting skinny Wiggins (a rider with a very strong endurance pedigree) into the same category as the Indurain's and Riis's of the cycling world is stretching it a bit. Those were big strong-men (Indurain was 80kg) who were able to grind over mountains with the climbers - I don't think Twiggo (who shed a heap of weight) fits into that category.



    I agree that the questions still need to be asked, and that the riders still need to be reminded that the public are fed up with dopers. I've commented on that several times before, especially from the perspective of what riders need to do and say in public to win over the sceptics. I get very annoyed with riders who say it's all in the past, particularly when you consider that last year was the first year in decades that the TdF podium didn't have a confirmed doper on it. However, I get the impression from Paul Kimmage's writing that he takes it all very very personally. While this can have it's benefits (Lance), there are times when it detracts from his work. It seems sometimes that he has a grudge/chip on his shoulder over SKY, which I can completely understand given the discrepancy between what they say and what they do.

    The nub of the issue is that most of the teams are unwilling to do what it would take to convince PK and the more sceptical end of the spectrum, and they're ok with that, as long as they can keep the majority of people happy with them.


    Tell you what, if you had asked anyone in 2011 which was more likely, Gilbert to win a GT or Froome to become the top rider in the world within a year, I think we all know what the answer would have been, indeed most people would have said "Froome who??"

    Froome did not progress at all for 4 years and them boom, almost wins the Vuelta. That is not a steady progression, that is a jump of gigantic proportions. Dan Martin is a perfect example of showing steady progress and he skipped the British development system to ride for Ireland, he is doing ok without the amazing coaching prowess of the Brits.

    The whole South African coaching thing is also a fallacy, do you think South Africa is somehow inferior to Ireland when it comes to cycling development. Lets not forget Froome spent 6 months at the UCI development center designed specifically for improving cyclists and he still didn't show much when he turned pro.

    The coaching matter this is exactly what Kimmage is asking about, if Froome's development is down to better coaching, how is it SKY have not been able to improve EBH. To me its a logical reasonable question.

    People are also moaning about Kimmage slamming EBH, well in most sports if a highly talented player moves to the top dogs and doesn't perform, it doesn't take long for the press to get on their case, it's called being a pro athlete. If you are not performing up to scratch, prepare to be asked about it.


  • #48
    kfod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 218 ✭✭kfod


    Morrisseeee wrote: »
    An interesting article (from May 2011) and it also has an interesting graph.

    That graph is interesting. It does have a disclaimer on it, but they obviously thought very highly of "EBH" and not so much of "CF"


  • #49
    Diarmuid
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,979 ✭✭✭Diarmuid


    nak wrote: »
    . Marijn de Vries did an interview at the start of the Giro Rosa with the idea of promoting the race, all she was asked about was doping. She has said in the past that most female riders are lucky if they can afford a coffee. The press only seem to be interested in cycling doping stories.

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2013/jan/14/nicole-cooke-retirement-statement


  • #50
    Straatvark
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 185 ✭✭Straatvark


    Fr D Maugire wrote: »
    Tell you what, if you had asked anyone in 2011 which was more likely, Gilbert to win a GT or Froome to become the top rider in the world within a year, I think we all know what the answer would have been, indeed most people would have said "Froome who??"
    Well, then the 'anyone' in 2011 did not look at both riders GC results in GTs in the previous 3 years ;) (Both took part in the same GTs in 2007 & 2008 - A team would rather have signed CF as a GC contender. )

    EDIT - sorry, thought you mentioned GT on Sky. But Gilberts GC results is also worse.
    Fr D Maugire wrote: »
    The whole South African coaching thing is also a fallacy, do you think South Africa is somehow inferior to Ireland when it comes to cycling development. Lets not forget Froome spent 6 months at the UCI development center designed specifically for improving cyclists and he still didn't show much when he turned pro.
    It is sad to argue this one, but err yes. It is inferior - I need to mention the number of SAFFAS in the pro peloton compared to Irish riders. (per capita especially)

    I don't mind at all that journalists question CF's results - I'm past the blind trust. One thing though - I would not call EBH under-performing...


  • #51
    Beasty
    Administrators, Social & Fun Moderators, Sports Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 78,525 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭Beasty


    Before anyone strays to far, just a reminder of the doping speculation rules.

    Thanks

    Beasty


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  • #52
    kfod
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 218 ✭✭kfod


    That cycling quotient site that Dave Brailsford likes is interesting too :)


    at the bottom is the graph of Froomes CQ improvement
    http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=5789

    and EBH
    http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=4377

    Wiggins
    http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=990

    Dan Martin
    http://www.cqranking.com/men/asp/gen/rider.asp?riderid=3460

    Froome and Wiggins CQ rise really only starts with Sky, EBH has been steadily rising bar one exceptional year, 09, with HTC, Dan is a nice steady increase bar last year.


  • #53
    Morrisseeee
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,152 ✭✭✭Morrisseeee


    Continuing on the Sky trend I'll link to the following article, and if you're a GC contender, look away now:
    be worried, be very freaking worried!
    Kerrison did not hide how impressed he was by Porte's time trial up the Col de la Madone.
    Kerrison added that Porte's ride was ''probably in the top three most impressive training efforts I've ever seen any athlete do.
    ''I have witnessed Bradley and Chris do some impressive things, but [with] Richie … that effort was on a par with anything I have seen from these guys. I can't say he is going better than Chris. Chris went faster, but on a different set-up, a mountain time-trial set-up. So we can't compare performances.''

    So (for a bit of humour) imagine the scenario, Froome & Porte are on the podium in Paris, Porte looks up at Froome and says: "hey Froomey, where's everyone else?" Froome looks at Porte, shrugs his shoulders, but then glances at the large TV screen and says: "Ah there they are, they're just on the 2nd ascent of Alpe d'Huez now" :P


  • #54
    aindriu80
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,968 ✭✭✭aindriu80


    I think he needs to try 720p camera mode and scratch the music. Nothing too controversial though but the bikes today were interesting.


  • #55
    buffalo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭buffalo


    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/day-nine-paul-kimmages-tour-de-france-video-29394995.html

    3 chains a tour! :eek:


  • #56
    TinyExplosions
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,860 ✭✭✭TinyExplosions


    buffalo wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/day-nine-paul-kimmages-tour-de-france-video-29394995.html

    3 chains a tour! :eek:

    Yeah, saw that a while ago in a bikeradar article on some teams service course -it's insane the amount of kit they go through (the shimano based teams even use Ultegra cassettes cos they last longer!)


  • #57
    coastwatch
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 911 ✭✭✭coastwatch


    "about an hour" for a complete build, takes me that long just to replace bar tape (badly) :(


  • #58
    Fr D Maugire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 723 ✭✭✭Fr D Maugire


    So boyos, where was this level of talent hidden between 2008-11. Now matching and beating the times of Armstrong, Ullrich, Basso etc.


  • #59
    kennyb3
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,725 ✭✭✭kennyb3


    Morrisseeee wrote: »
    Continuing on the Sky trend I'll link to the following article, and if you're a GC contender, look away now:
    be worried, be very freaking worried!



    So (for a bit of humour) imagine the scenario, Froome & Porte are on the podium in Paris, Porte looks up at Froome and says: "hey Froomey, where's everyone else?" Froome looks at Porte, shrugs his shoulders, but then glances at the large TV screen and says: "Ah there they are, they're just on the 2nd ascent of Alpe d'Huez now" :P

    Well called out in advance


  • #60
    buffalo
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,229 ✭✭✭buffalo


    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/paul-kimmage-no-escaping-the-shadow-29401215.html

    Kimmage talks about Kelly's positives.


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  • #61
    happytramp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,627 ✭✭✭happytramp


    buffalo wrote: »
    http://www.independent.ie/sport/other-sports/paul-kimmage-no-escaping-the-shadow-29401215.html

    Kimmage talks about Kelly's positives.

    Interesting. The Codine situation sounds legit. The other one is a bit more complex. Does it make it less bad that it was someone else's urine or is it a case of cheating is cheating and it's all equal?


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