Lions 2013 Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

.ak · 01-07-2013 02:27PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

the game plan needs to change... drastically.

Not sure I agree with that. It needs tweaking, not changing. We played some awfully boring rugby and didn't play to our strengths, but I think if we go out all guns blazing and it doesn't work we could see Oz taking us apart in open field play and routing us.

A couple of strike runners in the form or SOB and Roberts could open some holes and if we start off like we did on Saturday we could turn the game to our advantage.

P.Walnuts · 01-07-2013 02:27PM

I'm almost certain the back row will be Lydiate, SOB and Faleteau

Problem there is the lineout, but SOB has been used at the tail in the warm up games and shown good clean hands. No Mowen there obviously

But I can't see Gatland dropping Lydiate

I can certainly see a fresh Faleteau coming in, harsh enough on Heaslip who hasnt done much wrong

Noffles · 01-07-2013 02:27PM

.ak wrote: »

Don't know why you'd bring Cuthbert back in when, aside from a soft try, he's been quite poor without ball in hand? He had a game to forget in the first test.

I agree with the rest, altho that backrow would be completely untested. I'd have either Lydiate or Heaslip in there because they'll know what to expect and won't get blown off the park if things don't go their way.

I just have the "feeling" Cuthbert would be in the right place at the right time.

I can see the Lydiate option though and agree..

.ak · 01-07-2013 02:29PM

Noffles wrote: »

I just have the "feeling" Cuthbert would be in the right place at the right time.

I can see the Lydiate option though and agree..

I'm actually a fan of Cuthbert but I don't think this is the right time for hunches. North and Bowe are bubbling nicely and I think if they get onto a couple players turning they could cause some serious damage. No point in changing that now.

Fireball07 · 01-07-2013 02:30PM

Phillips shouldn't be anywhere near the team after his awful performance. I'd have Murray to start, Youngs on the bench.

Keep Bowe & North on the wings. BOD & Manu in the centre preferably, although Roberts is going to be a certainty. And as for people saying Davies isn't a natural 12, I'm fairly sure people used to say before that he was a 12 playing 13, he's just played 12 more recently.

I think a back row of Lydiate-SOB-Heaslip/Faletau could work. I've never been 100% convinced by Faletau but when he's on his game, he's very good. SOB surely has to start at this stage...and Lydiate there to provide a bit of grunt too.

01-07-2013 02:35PM

P.Walnuts wrote: »

I can certainly see a fresh Faleteau coming in, harsh enough on Heaslip who hasnt done much wrong

equally though, Faletau has had a very good tour without being involved in the tests. They're both out and out number 8s and as result they either start or aren't involved.

The margin between the two of them is very small and Heaslip couldn't really have any gripes if Faletau was trusted with the Jersey for the last game.

Always a good connundrum to have, which of your in-form excellent specialists to choose!

P.Walnuts · 01-07-2013 02:37PM

Deleted User wrote: »

equally though, Faletau has had a very good tour without being involved in the tests. They're both out and out number 8s and as result they either start or aren't involved.

The margin between the two of them is very small and Heaslip couldn't really have any gripes if Faletau was trusted with the Jersey for the last game.

Always a good connundrum to have, which of your in-form excellent specialists to choose!

Ye agree, I see Faleteau as being in a very similar situation on SOB, played very well on tour and unlucky to be missing out on a test start. Both look likely to get one this week.

I think the weeks rest will have done Faleteau a world of good and if he starts i'd expect a big perfromace from him on sat! Could see Heaslip making the bench too, but wouldn't bet on it

BoardsMember · 01-07-2013 02:37PM

Leslie91 wrote: »

Defo Murray to start at 9 for me...

Hate to say it but I'd bring in Faletau and SOB to play 8 and 7 respectively. Leave Lydiate start but bench Heaslip to come on for Faletau or Lydiate after 55.

Bring Roberts of Tuilagi on for Davies. Corbs for Mako. Go with Croft for bench again. Bring Zebo onto bench over Cuthbert.

Sorted.

Think this might be the way forward alright.

bilston · 01-07-2013 02:40PM

Deleted User wrote: »

equally though, Faletau has had a very good tour without being involved in the tests. They're both out and out number 8s and as result they either start or aren't involved.

The margin between the two of them is very small and Heaslip couldn't really have any gripes if Faletau was trusted with the Jersey for the last game.

Always a good connundrum to have, which of your in-form excellent specialists to choose!

Who is the better carrier? Heaslip or Faletau? Heaslip seems better at finding gaps but maybe Faletau is harder to put down, a bit more Nick Williams if you will? I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison or not? Either way, and I'm going to keep banging this drum from now until Saturday, the Lions have to start making more yards in the carry to try and create some space for Sexton and co so that they don't just resort to the garryowen tactic for another 80 minutes.

P.Walnuts · 01-07-2013 02:47PM

bilston wrote: »

Who is the better carrier? Heaslip or Faletau? Heaslip seems better at finding gaps but maybe Faletau is harder to put down, a bit more Nick Williams if you will? I'm not sure if that's a fair comparison or not? Either way, and I'm going to keep banging this drum from now until Saturday, the Lions have to start making more yards in the carry to try and create some space for Sexton and co so that they don't just resort to the garryowen tactic for another 80 minutes.

Agree completely, there was no1 consistently breaking the gainline and giving sexton quick front foot ball.

If you look at the carriers that weren't in the team for one reason or another (Healy, Jenkins, SOB, Faleteau, Tuilagi, Roberts) its clear this needs to be addressed.

irishbucsfan · 01-07-2013 03:05PM

.ak wrote: »

Out of interest, why? Honest question.

Becuase he's a defensively excellent. And the areas he is weaker in are the areas that Kidney never really seemed to rate as highly as others. And he's mobile. Kidney would love him.

I can see exactly how this tour would go under Kidney. Murray would start all the tests. The team would play for territory dogmatically and the lads would tear up and bust themselves trying to turn the Aussies over in the first couple of phases after box kick after box kick.

Quint2010 · 01-07-2013 03:28PM

P.Walnuts wrote: »

Agree completely, there was no1 consistently breaking the gainline and giving sexton quick front foot ball.

If you look at the carriers that weren't in the team for one reason or another (Healy, Jenkins, SOB, Faleteau, Tuilagi, Roberts) its clear this needs to be addressed.

Would Croft not be classed as a ball carrier?

.ak · 01-07-2013 03:31PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Would Croft not be classed as a ball carrier?

Generally he would, but he isn't going to make yards by hitting shoulders. He'll run around players.

Buer · 01-07-2013 03:32PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Would Croft not be classed as a ball carrier?

Not in the same manner. Croft isn't someone that is going to drive into contact, get over the gain line and make a target for his pack. If Croft gets over the gain line, it will generally because he has made a line break via a mismatch. He's closer to Tommy Bowe than he is Toby Faletau/Jamie Roberts as a carrier.

subfreq · 01-07-2013 03:33PM

So, while we wait for the IRB to 'Appeal', have a read of the original decsion which is now published on the IRB site:

horwill-decision.pdf

Doesn't read as cut and dried as the clip we have all seen would indicate although I do still think the decision is a foregone conclusion. In fact the timezone thing works in favour of the IRB so they now have the entire NH afternoon to carefully make sure the 'Appealed' decision is handled correctly. I'm not implying any sense of conspiracy there, just that this is a new precedent and the IRB know that this case will be used in the future as such.

P.Walnuts · 01-07-2013 03:35PM

Quint2010 wrote: »

Would Croft not be classed as a ball carrier?

I think he is a different type of ball carrier, the ones i've mentioned will usually cross the gainline and frequently break the first up tackle. Croft is more an open field runner, beating players by his pace rather than his power.

In an open game that's just as effective, but with the type of game last saturday was, players able to break the gainline in a organised defence, even by a metre would give us a hell of alot more front foot ball.

subfreq · 01-07-2013 03:39PM

Also, excellent analysis from GAGR on the scrums from last weekend, definately worth the time to have a read.

analysis wallabies scrum issues against lions/

Buer · 01-07-2013 03:44PM

In terms of selecting Heaslip or Faletau, it will be very interesting to see which he goes with. Faletau really deserves to make at least one test appearance on tour and hasn't let anyone down. He has done very well aside from one poor game and has looked good in most aspects. Fresh legs could be a big plus to the back row and SOB and Faletau would add some significant energy around the field after a long season and tour.

Heaslip though has been central to the set piece. When the scrum has been marching forward, he has been at the base, controlling and drawing the penalty. He has also been far more involved in the line out throughout the tour and heavily used in the first two tests. It's interesting that, aside from one line out, Faletau was never used as a jumper until the last midweek match which suggests they were eager to see how he performed in that aspect. He definitely isn't in the same class as Heaslip though in that area.

The other big factor in Heaslip's favour is the loss of POC and now Warburton. Heaslip is one of the senior players in the side and it was him giving the talk in the dressing room before they emerged for the second half. Faletau is much younger and appears to be very much a quiet, introvert. Corbisiero, Youngs, Parling, SOB and Lydiate only have 85 caps between them; it won't be a hugely experienced pack at this level.

Really is anyone's guess. I'd say it's 60% in favour of Heaslip at this point.

wonderfullife · 01-07-2013 03:48PM

is it as clear cut as BOD = Captain? He'd be my choice but i could see Gatland going for Lydiate or perhaps even Sexton, whose leadership is being talked up a lot in Lions circles.

For me this was one of the images of the Tour so far:

Buer · 01-07-2013 03:54PM

subfreq wrote: »

Doesn't read as cut and dried as the clip we have all seen would indicate although I do still think the decision is a foregone conclusion. In fact the timezone thing works in favour of the IRB so they now have the entire NH afternoon to carefully make sure the 'Appealed' decision is handled correctly. I'm not implying any sense of conspiracy there, just that this is a new precedent and the IRB know that this case will be used in the future as such.

Curiously, according to RTE, the Wallabies had a press conference originally scheduled for 11pm in Sydney but that has come and gone with no verdict.

Interesting comments from Larkham on the matter also that will not make him a popular boy.

Verdict probably won't be out until about 4am local time. Beale and JOC will bring us the news as it breaks.

sydthebeat · 01-07-2013 03:56PM

subfreq wrote: »

Doesn't read as cut and dried as the clip we have all seen would indicate although I do still think the decision is a foregone conclusion...

interesting that the QC took the decision based on his assertion that he couldnt reject the players explaination of the incident.

surely he could have still accepted the players explanation AND still found the use of the boot as reckless.

it reads like a pretty weak decision compared to others ive read.

subfreq · 01-07-2013 03:57PM

Buer wrote: »

Beale and JOC will bring us the news as it breaks.

The press conference has been shifted to Hungry Jacks...

eclipsechaser · 01-07-2013 04:03PM

Ugo Monye spacecraft experience wrote: »

SOB/Tipuric/Toby F is a horrendously imbalanced backrow

Where's the imbalance with SOB/Tipuric/Heaslip (or Faletau)?

Playing Lydiate/SOB just feels very passive. Lydiate will give you lots of tackles but at the expense of metres made. SOB is a very good 7 but it limits the effect of his ball-carrying.

Playing at 6, SOB is simply a devastating ball-carrier, something the Lions have been missing. Tipuric is also a fantastic 7. He'll tackle his heart out all day long. Playing them together lets both them be at their most effective.

sydthebeat · 01-07-2013 04:06PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

is it as clear cut as BOD = Captain? He'd be my choice but i could see Gatland going for Lydiate or perhaps even Sexton, whose leadership is being talked up a lot in Lions circles.

i wouldnt be in the least surprised if gatland drops BOD and reverts to a roberts / davies partnership.

add to that a back row of lydiate / tipuric and faletau....

paulmcshane · 01-07-2013 04:11PM

Surely Murray has played the better of the 3 scrum halves in the two tests so far? Granted it was off the bench, but he clearly was the better of the two last Saturday when he came on.

I can't fathom why anyone would suggest Phillips should start next Saturday. I really need it explained in clear english.

rrpc · 01-07-2013 04:13PM

paulmcshane wrote: »

Surely Murray has played the better of the 3 scrum halves in the two tests so far? Granted it was off the bench, but he clearly was the better of the two last Saturday when he came on.

I can't fathom why anyone would suggest Phillips should start next Saturday. I really need it explained in clear english.

He's Welsh?

Buer · 01-07-2013 04:15PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

it reads like a pretty weak decision compared to others ive read.

It has become a massive issue within the game that there's no consistent citing procedure/disciplinary measures. Different governing bodies have individual approaches. We all know and incident at Pro12 level might get 3 weeks but could well get 6 weeks in the HEC.

There seems to be a gap in terms of interpretation between the hemispheres. For example, Michael Hooper performed a tip tackle on Vito last season. I'd be almost sure it would have resulted in a 2 week rest in this hemisphere but there was no suspension for him. Or Nonu got 3 weeks for one when I thought he'd have received about 5 or 6 in this part of the world at least given he has plenty of previous for reckless hits as recently as several weeks ago.

I'm not saying either is right or wrong, but they need to establish some sort of consistency across the bodies given it is these players and referees on the field together when it comes to international level.

paulmcshane · 01-07-2013 04:15PM

rrpc wrote: »

He's Welsh?

Ah thank you! All clear now.

jamiedav2011 · 01-07-2013 04:23PM

wonderfullife wrote: »

is it as clear cut as BOD = Captain? He'd be my choice but i could see Gatland going for Lydiate or perhaps even Sexton, whose leadership is being talked up a lot in Lions circles.

For me this was one of the images of the Tour so far:

Was this after the second test?

By the way, Lydiate as captain?!

subfreq · 01-07-2013 04:23PM

sydthebeat wrote: »

surely he could have still accepted the players explanation AND still found the use of the boot as reckless.

Agreed, but in the new findings they are opening themselves up to interesting ground there because it is a whole new can of worms.

Under that ruling you could revise the Healy decision;

In Healy's case it was clearly accidental biting but the IRB would appeal on the grounds of recklessness as even though we all accept Healy's explanation you should never bite in any circumstances? (I think that would be ridiculous but it is the road this goes down)

It quickly becomes legally wonkish because It's not an isolated incident. It is the first time an independent decision in a citing to find a player innocent is being appealed and every innocent decision going forward or any incident regarding accidental head contact will be held up against how they word the ruling on this.

I think the ramifications of the ruling are quite broad for rugby going forward and I am certainly not making these points in defence of Horwill, I just think it is an important moment in how the IRB operate.

Lions 2013 Team Talk/Gossip/Rumours Thread

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