Have you ever been to a Brothel

HansHolzel · 30-06-2013 12:53PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Paying somebody to have sex with you, or charging somebody money to have sex with you, is itself coercion.

This type of sanctimonious PC comment reminds me of the biggest fantasy involving hookers: that they can be abolished.

yuki_supriatna · 30-06-2013 01:10PM

Hello Boards,

My first time here so please go easy on me!

Am living in Japan for a while and done some research into Indonesian construction workers and Philippine sex workers here. Japan has one of the highest rates of human trafficking worldwide and research indicates that, while some people are aware of what they are about to get into, most are not. They are ruthlessly exploited and treated as a "service", rather than human beings who have the same emotions, feelings, families and identities as we all do. By stripping people of these four things and treating them as a "service", we are basically trying to de-humanize them to justify our behavior. I have been de-humanized in different ways: think of how stereotyping makes us feel, Irish, Paddy, Mick, woman, foreigner. This is quite typical of being seen as a nameless group identity, in this case, the nameless "sex workers".

Yuki

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 01:11PM

HansHolzel wrote: »

This type of sanctimonious PC comment reminds me of the biggest fantasy involving hookers: that they can be abolished.

Speak for yourself. The biggest fantasy involving hookers for me is midget amputee reverse gangbang. Sadly it's about as rare as a reasonable remark from czarcasm.

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 01:19PM

yuki_supriatna wrote: »

Hello Boards,

My first time here so please go easy on me!

Am living in Japan for a while and done some research into Indonesian construction workers and Philippine sex workers here. Japan has one of the highest rates of human trafficking worldwide and research indicates that, while some people are aware of what they are about to get into, most are not. They are ruthlessly exploited and treated as a "service", rather than human beings who have the same emotions, feelings, families and identities as we all do. By stripping people of these four things and treating them as a "service", we are basically trying to de-humanize them to justify our behavior. I have been de-humanized in different ways: think of how stereotyping makes us feel, Irish, Paddy, Mick, woman, foreigner. This is quite typical of being seen as a nameless group identity, in this case, the nameless "sex workers".

Yuki

Why did you feel the need to input here with your tripe? We are discussing the situation in Ireland, not Japan.

yuki_supriatna · 30-06-2013 01:23PM

Apologies,

I mistakenly thought that people who are involved in human trafficking were human beings, no matter the country. My mistake. Please carry on.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 01:25PM

fatbatman wrote: »

Speak for yourself. The biggest fantasy involving hookers for me is midget amputee reverse gangbang. Sadly it's about as rare as a reasonable remark from czarcasm.

Thanked that purely because it made me laugh, but amputee fantasies would be pretty standard stuff, and for gangbangs obviously you're going to pay more, the adult baby stuff though? *shudders*

Czarcasm wrote: »

Sound for the sentiment and I appreciate that you won't be back to the thread, I'm struggling to commit time to it myself which is why aares and CK's posts I know I can leave til later while I'm still considering how I can express myself better so anyone reading the thread can use it as an information resource rather than a bitchy back and forth that nobody wants to read.

With that said, to address your specific point above-

I find it a sad reflection on our society that we still haven't moved on from the archaic practice of trading sexual favors for shiny shiny.

I don't have any problems with sex (well, the whole adult baby thing doesn't do it for me personally ), but hey whatever floats your boat, but in 2013, you do realise we have the technology and the means that not only can you meet like minded people online, but you can even meet them in person with Ryanair flights for a tenner, you know exactly what to expect, knock yourselves out when you meet up, a whole weekend even, and the best bit?

YOU JUST SAVED YOURSELF €4900!!

"But this, but that, but the other"...

Stop complaining, I offered you an alternative and saved you a shedload of money! A weekend of great sex, nobody breaking the law, nobody got hurt (unless they wanted to! ),and a saving of nearly €5k, and your STILL not happy? Really?

My point being that it's not the idea of sex that's archaic, it's the idea of paying for it and trading it as a commodity when it's a more freely available resource than the water which covers 70% of the planet!

Someone earlier in the thread made the point that the internet and technology is a threat to those who disagree with legislating for sex workers. It's just as much a threat to sex workers when you REALLY CAN find a cracking girl or guy ten minutes from your current location who will indulge in your amputation fantasies (you can get straps that will bend your arms and legs at the joints - one "amputee" later, play ball... in a manner of speaking) and allow themselves to be fcuked off a wall and whipped, kicked and punched within an inch of their lives, if that's what gets you off!

Aaaand I've probably said too much already... :pac:

But did I mention the best bit? They'll do it for FREE!! A sex worker quite literally wouldn't give you the steam off their pìss for free, never mind a cuddle and a chat! That shìt's bad for business- "no pro boner work here!", "no fantastic plastic? take your issues somewhere else!".

Where did I ever say women weren't fantastic and incredibly capable? I love women, I wouldn't be here myself had I not fallen from between the thighs of one 36 years ago, 35 of which we've never seen eye to eye on anything, but that's just a personality clash. Same with men- love em, but again, my old man? Personality clash.

Nobody said it was? What's shameful is charging people for the pleasure- give it freely, or don't give it at all. But don't try and package it up as you doing humanity a favor by charging for an infinite resource.

Because, as PT Barnum would say - there's one born every minute, and if you can package an infinitely available resource and make it look shiny shiny, well, I'm still kicking myself I didn't patent bottled water and lock it down. That shìt sells itself.

Sex workers on the other hand, have to market themselves, and rather aggressively too I might add, apparently Ireland in a recession and sex workers all over Europe have heard your anguished cries of desperate dry spells. Not to worry, they'll be with you shortly, they just have to take care of those meanies in Dáil Eireann so they can help up all to feel all happy again with their particular brand of shiny shiny cuddles.

Will you be paying in cash or plastic?

Better lube up sweetheart, you're about to get fcuked over a barrel again.

Do come again, I've got plenty more where that came from.

Yamanoto · 30-06-2013 01:29PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Paying somebody to have sex with you, or charging somebody money to have sex with you, is itself coercion.

Why you had to engage in a protracted fandango to get to the point above, I'll never know.

As well you know, the use of coercion applied within my question pertains to actual or threatened force (or intimidation), to compel a person to do something, or to abstain from doing something - thereby depriving that person of the exercise of free will.

You most likely make no distinction between voluntary and non-voluntary prostitution - so for you, a person who makes their own choice to provide sex for sale is no freer than a slave.

He or She may think they are, but hey, Czarcasm knows best.

howamidifferent · 30-06-2013 01:32PM

I have. I gave her the best 30 seconds of her life... :P

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 01:47PM

yuki_supriatna wrote: »

Apologies,

I mistakenly thought that people who are involved in human trafficking were human beings, no matter the country. My mistake. Please carry on.

Japanese people are thanks-whores too? You learn something new every day.

You indicated that most sex workers who are "trafficked" (not 100% independent) do not know what they're getting into, which is a typical Ruhama style lie. It wouldn't be below those crank nuns to masquerade as Japanese shills on the internet..

If this is not the case however, then just keep going about your business and supporting your economy and in turn your ingenious country-men currently doing fabulous work inventing sex robots, they will solve this entire issue. I will be among the first purchasers, It'll go nicely with my PS5. Never gonna leave my house again at that point.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 01:52PM

Yamanoto wrote: »

Why you had to engage in a protracted fandango to get to the point above, I'll never know.

Simply because one question leads on to another, which leads on to another, which leads on... well, you get the idea, and rather than answer those predictable same questions over and over again, it was easier to direct you to a thread where all the predictable questions were given multiple answers, multiple times already.

As well you know, the use of coercion applied within my question pertains to actual or threatened force (or intimidation), to compel a person to do something, or to abstain from doing something - thereby depriving that person of the exercise of free will.

But there doesn't have to be threatened force to imply coercion! A sex worker will abstain from having sex with you unless you have the means to convince her to have sex with you. Therefore you are coerced to pay for the sex, against your free will, and she is coerced because she is coerced to entertain your sexual desires because you gave her enough money, thereby she is having sex with you against her free will!

You most likely make no distinction between voluntary and non-voluntary prostitution - so for you, a person who makes their own choice to provide sex for sale is no freer than a slave.

I DO make the distinction between voluntary and involuntary sex work, and many of my friends as I said are voluntary sex workers, but there have been many people I have helped who have not been voluntary sex workers, and for the love of Christ if you align me with that Ruhuma crowd I'll get a pain in my face, which is the reason why I directed you to read that thread.

He or She may think they are, but hey, Czarcasm knows best.

I never said I know better than those who know what they're doing and choose to do so of their own free will, but I DO know better than those who do not know what they're doing and are not free to exercise their free will, because they are coerced into trading an infinitely available resource as a commodity, which in my opinion is exploitation.

You may disagree with my opinion, but my opinion is based on my experience and the experience of hundreds of people I have met with who work in the sex industry, were working in the sex industry, or are thinking about getting into the sex industry.

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 02:07PM

But there doesn't have to be threatened force to imply coercion! A sex
worker will abstain from having sex with you unless you have the means to
convince her to have sex with you. Therefore you are coerced to pay for the sex,
against your free will, and she is coerced because she is coerced to entertain
your sexual desires because you gave her enough money, thereby she is having sex
with you against her free will!

Elementary mistake in logic.

Not everything we do in life is for the sake of our immediate gratification, but rather sometimes we make sacrifices in order to facilitate future needs or desires. For example, tomorrow morning I have to get up at 7:45 and do something I don't particularly like for 8 hours. Am I being coerced? Depends on how you look at it, but that certainly wouldn't be the most fitting term and would rather be distorting and misrepresenting the situation. The important thing here is that there is no way to draw a distinction as far as coercion is concerned between my work and that of a sex worker, without resorting to cheap tactics such as saying "your work doesn't involve being ravaged in every orifice by sick old strange weird fat hairy evil devils, I mean men."

yuki_supriatna · 30-06-2013 02:10PM

Japanese people are thanks-whores too? You learn something new every day.

I am Irish, living in Japan. Am not a whore. Am not a thanks-whore. Thank you.

You indicated that most sex workers who are "trafficked" (not 100% independent) do not know what they're getting into, which is a typical Ruhama style lie. It wouldn't be below those crank nuns to masquerade as Japanese shills on the internet..

Am not sure what you mean by "ruhuma", "crank nuns" or "Japanese shills". This is a genuine need for information. Please don't be rude.

If this is not the case however, then just keep going about your business and supporting your economy and in turn your ingenious country-men currently doing fabulous work inventing sex robots, they will solve this entire issue. I will be among the first purchasers, It'll go nicely with my PS5. Never gonna leave my house again at that point.

Thanks for the generalization about Japan. I am an Irish woman living here for over a decade, and trying to describe perspectives on the global sex industry, which is as relevant here as to Ireland as to Irish boys having high-jinks in Estonia, Thailand, Vietnam and the Philippines.

All the best...

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 02:17PM

fatbatman wrote: »

Elementary mistake in logic.

fatbatman you make some really, I mean really, stupid arguments that betray your bias, arguments that are full of word play and lacking in logic, but you can't see it because of your bias, that chip on your shoulder that says-

fatbatman wrote: »

There is a massive stigma against males who use prostitutes in this country, and it's something that should really change.

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 02:18PM

yuki_supriatna wrote: »

Japanese people are thanks-whores too? You learn something new every day.

I am Irish, living in Japan. Am not a whore. Am not a thanks-whore. Thank you.

You indicated that most sex workers who are "trafficked" (not 100% independent) do not know what they're getting into, which is a typical Ruhama style lie. It wouldn't be below those crank nuns to masquerade as Japanese shills on the internet..

Am not sure what you mean by "ruhuma", "crank nuns" or "Japanese shills". This is a genuine need for information. Please don't be rude.

If this is not the case however, then just keep going about your business and supporting your economy and in turn your ingenious country-men currently doing fabulous work inventing sex robots, they will solve this entire issue. I will be among the first purchasers, It'll go nicely with my PS5. Never gonna leave my house again at that point.

Thanks for the generalization about Japan. I am an Irish woman living here for over a decade, and trying to describe perspectives on the global sex industry, which is as relevant here as to Ireland as to Irish boys having high-jinks in Estonia, Thailand, Vietnam and the Philippines.

All the best...

Oh I see.. A "wapanese" woman. You haven't gone all the way in your national identity change if you're still hanging on to your feminist delusions though, just some advice.

I made zero generalizations in my post. There are inventors in Japan congering up sex robots for the global market of the future and I see this as a very positive thing. That is all.

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 02:20PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

fatbatman you make some really, I mean really, stupid arguments that betray your bias, arguments that are full of word play and lacking in logic, but you can't see it because of your bias, that chip on your shoulder that says-

Then why can't you refute it?:

Not everything we do in life is for the sake of our immediate gratification, but
rather sometimes we make sacrifices in order to facilitate future needs or
desires. For example, tomorrow morning I have to get up at 7:45 and do something
I don't particularly like for 8 hours. Am I being coerced? Depends on how you
look at it, but that certainly wouldn't be the most fitting term and would
rather be distorting and misrepresenting the situation. The important thing here
is that there is no way to draw a distinction as far as coercion is concerned
between my work and that of a sex worker, without resorting to cheap tactics
such as saying "your work doesn't involve being ravaged in every orifice by sick
old strange weird fat hairy evil devils, I mean men."

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 02:25PM

fatbatman wrote: »

Then why can't you refute it?:

Because it's not even worth entertaining tbh.

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 02:27PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Because it's not even worth entertaining tbh.

How convenient.

It's the standard argument against your position which most will make. So everyone else is stupid and wrong but you and a small group of "enlightened" others?

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 02:45PM

fatbatman wrote: »

How convenient.

It's the standard argument against your position which most will make. So everyone else is stupid and wrong but you and a small group of "enlightened" others?

I never said you were stupid (which is the standard correlation you will make when somebody dismisses your opinion as stupid, it's stupid because it is ill informed), but you are wrong, because you are ill informed, and your argument has been made a thousand times, and refuted a thousand times, which is why sex work is still regarded as an archaic practice that has no place in a modern, civilised society.

If anyone is part of a "small group", it is the ill informed people that are of the opinion that sex work should be tolerated and legislated for in a modern, civilised society.

30-06-2013 02:47PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

But there doesn't have to be threatened force to imply coercion! A sex worker will abstain from having sex with you unless you have the means to convince her to have sex with you. Therefore you are coerced to pay for the sex, against your free will, and she is coerced because she is coerced to entertain your sexual desires because you gave her enough money, thereby she is having sex with you against her free will!

.

That's a pretty bizarre argument to make, tbh
Paying people to give me a bar of chocolate isn't coercing them, and paying them to stand in a shop for 8 hours isn't coercing them either
If she chooses whether to say yes or no depending on how highly she values the money, there is zero coercing
Someone will abstain from jumping up and down in the street yelling "unicorn", but if you walk up to them and say here's a couple hundred if you'll do that - they'll probably do it because they value the money. Again, zero coercion

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 02:50PM

bluewolf wrote: »

That's a pretty bizarre argument to make, tbh
Paying people to give me a bar of chocolate isn't coercing them, and paying them to stand in a shop for 8 hours isn't coercing them either
If she chooses whether to say yes or no depending on how highly she values the money, there is zero coercing
Someone will abstain from jumping up and down in the street yelling "unicorn", but if you walk up to them and say here's a couple hundred if you'll do that - they'll probably do it because they value the money. Again, zero coercion

It's not only bizarre, but also rather insulting to our capabilities as intelligent beings for logic and reason as well as honesty and integrity.

Speisekarte · 30-06-2013 02:53PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Not because it wasn't convenient for me, but because you couldn't see the illogical argument in your own flawed question -

Paying somebody to have sex with you, or charging somebody money to have sex with you, is itself coercion.

Do you think it is immoral for two adults too exchange cash for sexual services of their own free will?

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 02:54PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

I never said you were stupid (which is the standard correlation you will make when somebody dismisses your opinion as stupid, it's stupid because it is ill informed), but you are wrong, because you are ill informed, and your argument has been made a thousand times, and refuted a thousand times, which is why sex work is still regarded as an archaic practice that has no place in a modern, civilised society.

If anyone is part of a "small group", it is the ill informed people that are of the opinion that sex work should be tolerated and legislated for in a modern, civilised society.

How about refuting it again then? Especially when another forum member just chimed in with the same position.

If it is regarded as "an archaic practice that has no place in a modern, civilised society" it is for no good reason. Are you really against any kind of legalisation of sex work? You want to ban it out right?

HansHolzel · 30-06-2013 02:58PM

No woman will ever be bought a drink while this guy's at the counter, that's for sure.

His excuse?

'I'd be oppressing you.'

Speisekarte · 30-06-2013 02:58PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Simply because one question leads on to another, which leads on to another, which leads on... well, you get the idea, and rather than answer those predictable same questions over and over again, it was easier to direct you to a thread where all the predictable questions were given multiple answers, multiple times already.

But there doesn't have to be threatened force to imply coercion! A sex worker will abstain from having sex with you unless you have the means to convince her to have sex with you. Therefore you are coerced to pay for the sex, against your free will, and she is coerced because she is coerced to entertain your sexual desires because you gave her enough money, thereby she is having sex with you against her free will!

I DO make the distinction between voluntary and involuntary sex work, and many of my friends as I said are voluntary sex workers, but there have been many people I have helped who have not been voluntary sex workers, and for the love of Christ if you align me with that Ruhuma crowd I'll get a pain in my face, which is the reason why I directed you to read that thread.

I never said I know better than those who know what they're doing and choose to do so of their own free will, but I DO know better than those who do not know what they're doing and are not free to exercise their free will, because they are coerced into trading an infinitely available resource as a commodity, which in my opinion is exploitation.

You may disagree with my opinion, but my opinion is based on my experience and the experience of hundreds of people I have met with who work in the sex industry, were working in the sex industry, or are thinking about getting into the sex industry.

Do you also think hiring a cleaner is immoral? Do you think hiring an architect or a plumber is immoral?

According to your defintion of "coercion" they are being coerced.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 02:59PM

bluewolf wrote: »

That's a pretty bizarre argument to make, tbh
Paying people to give me a bar of chocolate isn't coercing them, and paying them to stand in a shop for 8 hours isn't coercing them either
If she chooses whether to say yes or no depending on how highly she values the money, there is zero coercing
Someone will abstain from jumping up and down in the street yelling "unicorn", but if you walk up to them and say here's a couple hundred if you'll do that - they'll probably do it because they value the money. Again, zero coercion

Will that person give you the bar of chocolate without you paying for it? No.

Will that person stand in that shop for eight hours without you paying them to do so? No.

Will that person run up and down the street yelling unicorn without you paying them to do so? No.

In all three cases, you have to coerce them to do something by paying them enough to do it, and they in turn have to coerce you to pay them enough to do something you want them to do.

The word play nonsense in these merely intellectual discussions really wrecks my brain sometimes.

30-06-2013 03:00PM

You think paying for goods and services is coercion??
In that case, I'm out of here - no point continuing if you're making up definitions!

HansHolzel · 30-06-2013 03:01PM

What kind of f&8king planet are you living on? Life is hard, then you die.

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 03:03PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Will that person give you the bar of chocolate without you paying for it? No.

Will that person stand in that shop for eight hours without you paying them to do so? No.

Will that person run up and down the street yelling unicorn without you paying them to do so? No.

In all three cases, you have to coerce them to do something by paying them enough to do it, and they in turn have to coerce you to pay them enough to do something you want them to do.

The word play nonsense in these merely intellectual discussions really wrecks my brain sometimes.

OK.. We all coerce and get coerced on a daily basis. Coercion is the basis of our survival. Do you think therefore survival should cease? You go first.

Czarcasm · 30-06-2013 03:05PM

Speisekarte wrote: »

Do you also think hiring a cleaner is immoral? Do you think hiring an architect or a plumber is immoral?

According to your defintion of "coercion" they are being coerced.

You might have a point if I had said sex work was moral or immoral. I didn't, so your point is moot. For me the morality of sex work isn't relevant in a discussion because everyone has different moral standards. I don't have an issue with the sex industry, I have an issue with exploitation. There's a hell of a difference.

fatbatman · 30-06-2013 03:08PM

Czarcasm wrote: »

You might have a point if I had said sex work was moral or immoral. I didn't, so your point is moot. For me the morality of sex work isn't relevant in a discussion because everyone has different moral standards. I don't have an issue with the sex industry, I have an issue with exploitation. There's a hell of a difference.

All that time and you don't have a problem with the sex industry??

So you're one of those who want to eradicate the entire industry because of a minority of instances of abuse?

Have you ever been to a Brothel

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