Abortion debate thread

Manach wrote: »

Personally in my own opinion, as a Catholic myself, I'd be a tad wary of placing such political red-lines as the current abortion issue or other ones as well as belweathers of belief. Yes that this is important issue but there should be an element of pluralism to those who adhere to a more socially liberal agenda which is also linked to causes which would challenge the confort zones of conservatives, like myself, who might lessen the Church by making it a mere political tool.
Offhand a good example of this in the US is Nanci Pelosi, who whilst is pro-Choice at least makes an effort on behalf of the marginalised in society.

I would not class this as political in the eyes of the catholic church though, it may be a political subject in main stream society but Abortion in the eyes of the catholic church is murder of an innocent human being and i don't think there can be any gray areas here

endacl wrote: »

Well, those that know me from my infrequent and prior posts on this forum will know I'm not really qualified to comment....

I can say though, that of all my catholic friends (or at least those who would identify as catholic), and I do have quite a few(!), almost all would be pro-choice. An interesting aside to your question though... I have a small number of vociferously anti-choice friends as well, who would identify as non-religious, atheist, or agnostic. Stereotypes how are ye? It isn't all down to religion.

Exactly this!

I would say for them to identify themselves as being catholic and pro choice is the height of hypocrisy.
Where as there is nothing hypocritical of being an atheist and being pro life - you may just dis agree with abortion from a moral view point

Zombrex wrote: »

I'm an atheist, so my personal view is irrelevant to the question. I have Catholic friend who are both anti-abortion and pro-choice.

The pro-choice friend more often than not take the position that they would never have an abortion, and consider abortion morally wrong, but do not view it as the States responsibility to make it illegal because ultimately they believe a woman chooses what she does with her own body and the State has no right to over rule medical action she takes on her own body (this is known as the bodily autonomy/integrity principle and is discussed in the abortion thread)

This would be similar to say the view that you might think idolatry or blasphemy is immoral and a sin but not consider it the States responsibility to regulate it, that as far as the State is concerned you can choose to do these things and it is between you and God.

I know the Catholic church has proclaimed abortion immoral and a sin, but have they actually called on governments to make it illegal (does the Catholic church even do that?). If not would these pro-choice Catholics be considered hypocrites in your view?

Without derailing this into just another abortion debate let me answer you.

In my understanding it is the duty of catholic's to oppose abortion full stop, now you can argue all you like that it should be the right of a woman to have the choice and that the catholic church is just interfering and you are perfectly entitled to that view.
But as you are not a catholic you don't understand that by voting to allow the "choice" of abortion goes against the catholic churches teachings of being totally opposed to abortion - if there was a referendum tomorrow for abortion and i voted yes to allow the choice then I am in a way contributing to the bringing in of abortion.
As a catholic it is my duty to vote no, and the way I see it a personal opinion - I am not denying any woman the right to an abortion I am denying the right of doctors to carry out the procedure in this country.

Now if people want to vote for the choice of abortion then that is fine and is democratic - i can not stop that and I would have to accept that that is the will of the people as much as i may dis agree with it

Now to answer your question - If a catholic is to vote to allow abortion to be an option they are in a way contributing to the practice of abortions happening - the very thing there faith is against - so yes i do view them as hypocritical!

Only in the situation where the mother's life is in danger, like it was in Ireland before the Savita tragedy. As Doctor James O'Reilly stated the safest course with a miscarriage is to let it occur naturally, this case took a tragic turn unfortunately. We musn't blame the medical profession, human error will occur.

firemansam4 wrote: »

If any one has any doubts of that and are catholic they should talk to there local priest and see what he would say on it.

Although I understand exactly where you're coming from with that, and I do respect your position, you have to understand that to non Catholics, that attitude comes across as an abdication of any responsibility to make your own mind up on a very fundamental issue. Catholic first and free thinker second, if you like. To put it in more prosaic terms, aren't you just following the party whip? Even if your personal thinking matches exactly that of church teaching, shouldn't you be able to articulate that thinking on its own terms? In much the same way many politicians look to be about to break party ranks on this issue, which is an admirable stance (a pity they didn't do it more often in the past...), if the church is the people and not the institution, should the people not influence that institution to which they belong?

indy_man wrote: »

Why does the whole world have to beat to the same autocratic tune these days.

Progress, prosperity and education, I suppose...

mdebets wrote: »

Your are making the wrong assumption here, that someone who is pro-choice has to be pro-abortion. You can be against abortion, but still be pro-choice (as in one can belief that abortion is a sin, but still be of the opinion that woman, who belief differently should be allowed to have one).
Your are also inconsistent, if you put the argument forward that you would vote against choice, because abortions are against the teachings of the Catholic Church. There are other actions that are against the teachings of the Catholic Church.
As a Catholic for example, you have to go to mass once a week, yet you still vote for candidates that don't promote laws that make it mandatory to go to mass once a week. Why do you vote for politicians that follow one aspect of the teachings of the Catholic Church, but not another in their legislations?

I have already stated my position on this once already.
As I have said before If I or any one else who is a catholic votes for allowing the free choice of abortion, they are saying that they condone the killing of a human life (In the eyes of the catholic church that is) and like I already said if I was to vote to allow any person the right to have abortion on demand then I would have indirectly contributed to the killing of a human life, and my coincence as a catholic and also on moral grounds will not allow that.

Now in the eyes of the church an abortion is the killing of a human life which is the top of the list of mortal sins, there is a big difference between that and lets say not attending mass every week, you cant compare the two.

Fanny Cradock wrote: »

Probably straying in an unwanted direction here, but if someone is against abortion but pro-choice the question I want to ask is why be against abortion at all?

I'd imagine that would be the response of somebody with a strong personal conviction as the question applies to themselves, but who recognises that they have absolutely no business dictating life changing decisions to another individual, who they acknowledge may not share their belief? Can't think of another explanation.

crazy cabbage wrote: »

How many pro-life people are vegetarians? I haven't met one yet.

I might very well be missing something here but i really do find it very hard to respect someone who hold the view that one of my closest friends couldn't have an abortion after being raped while they res-erect their dead lord to commit cannibalism his body and then go home to dig into an animal which lets not forget was artificially conceived, spends all its life in captivity, spend all its life on drugs to make it bigger and produce more, often killed in an inhumane way to end up on your plate. A life (even if a really **** one in a lot of cases) killed for you.

If people were really pro-life and opposed the killing of all animals then i could at least respect their opinion. That is what the term pro-life signifies to me.

To bring it back to the OP's question. i am a veggy but just because i hold a belief doesn't mean i force my belief on everyone else. I think most catholics understand and respect this as evident in abortion polls. There is still a few to go though.

You really don't seem to be getting the point, if you are a catholic you are supposed to be against the killing of an unborn life, now if you voted to allow the procedure to be carried out in Ireland you are in-directly legitimizing it.
It goes against the very faith you are supposed to be practicing.

You may hold what ever views you like about the Catholic church and that is your entitlement.
But my point still stands that if you proclaim to be a catholic you are going against your very faith if you are pro choice.

crazy cabbage wrote: »

And that is my problem.

My friend that was raped. She wasn't catholic. None of her family was catholic. But because of the beliefs of those around her she was refused an abortion in this country.

You are properly right though. It saddens me but you properly are and this is why i hate catholicism. I would consider myself a follower of Jesus in that i try and live a good life. I mean i have read the bible (and alot of the other major religious books). But a follower of the crap that is pined on Jesus by religious institutions down through the ages. No i am not a follower.

The very fact that people object to abortion on the grounds that their religion tells them to sadness be greatly. That is what this tread is about.
Are you pro-choice and catholic? Well then you are a hypocrite.

If you are catholic and had sex before marrage are you also a hypocrite?
What about being a catholic and supporting gay marriage?

It really does make me sad.

While some people might go no further in their rejection of abortion then "it's against my religion", some in the pro life movement (which is also comprised of the non-religious, btw) make arguments against abortion on scientific and philosophical grounds. In short, the pro-life movement believes that the unborn is human and that there justifying the death of an innocent human life is almost always wrong. The pro-choice side may even grant that the unborn is human but that bodily autonomy trumps the life of the unborn.

An excellent debate between two of the best pro and anti abortion speakers that I've heard can be found here - http://www.apologetics315.com/2011/09/scott-klusendorf-vs-nadine-strossen.html.

But again this is what the mega thread is for.