Would you support the reintroduction of the death penalty?

tigger123 · 29-06-2013 02:28PM

**Vai** wrote: »

Again, those mistakes were failings in the courts, not the death penalty deciding to take innocent lives.

Your argument doesn't hold much water tbh, at least if you're serving life and its discovered that there's been a miscarriage of justice you can be released. You can't reverse a death penalty.

**Vai** · 29-06-2013 02:48PM

Yeah I do understand whats being said. I simply think the issue should lie with the courts and making sure they get it right in the extreme cases that I think should warrant death.

Jimmy Garlic · 29-06-2013 03:04PM

tigger123 wrote: »

Your argument doesn't hold much water tbh, at least if you're serving life and its discovered that there's been a miscarriage of justice you can be released. You can't reverse a death penalty.

With all the forensic technology available now the chances of a wrongful conviction are very slim.

**Vai** · 29-06-2013 03:07PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

With all the forensic technology available now the chances of a wrongful conviction are very slim.

Didn't even think of that aspect of it. Very true.

I just don't see it as an argument against the death penalty.

Hagar the Nice. · 29-06-2013 03:07PM

**Vai** wrote: »

Yeah I do understand whats being said. I simply think the issue should lie with the courts and making sure they get it right in the extreme cases that I think should warrant death.

Okay,I'll give this.
I was at a football match a good few years ago with my cousin.
This guy who was about 30 feet away started shouting "Peter."
He repeated the name a few times and I took no heed until the guy from behind me said 'Excuse me mate but I think the guy over there is shouting your name.'
I then noticed him coming towards me and said 'big man,ain't you talking to me,I'm your old workmate.'
I said 'sorry mate but I've never seen you before in my life,honest.'
He then said I was pulling his leg until I told him my real name and where I lived.'
The guy apologized and said he had never seen anyone so alike in his lifetime,shook hands and went away.
Cousin then said to me 'Why not go rob the local bank,Peter can get the blame once your picture reaches the daily papers.
The point I'm making is that mistakes do occur so its always best to be on the side of safety......just in case.

**Vai** · 29-06-2013 03:11PM

Hagar the Nice. wrote: »

The point I'm making is that mistakes do occur so its always best to be on the side of safety......just in case.

I get your point, I get what you are arguing, I just don't agree

Cody Pomeray · 29-06-2013 03:12PM

**Vai** wrote: »

Again, those mistakes were failings in the courts, not the death penalty deciding to take innocent lives.

But a court is the main actor in extending the death penalty.

As long as the courts continue administering justice, and as long as evidence is liable to manipulation or misinterpretation, then the courts will mistakenly apply penal sanctions. And the death penalty is simply the ultimately irreversible penal sanction.

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

With all the forensic technology available now the chances of a wrongful conviction are very slim.

No, if that were the case, there wouldn't be thousands of unsafe or wrongful convictions overturned at criminal appeal in Ireland and the UK every year (where the appeal doesn't hear any new evidence). Obviously this still goes beyond DNA and forensic evidence.

vibe666 · 29-06-2013 03:28PM

until you can guarantee 100% with zero chance of error that there will NEVER EVER be a wrongful conviction leading to the execution of an innocent person, there is no room for the death penalty in Ireland or any other country. anything else is nothing more than state sanctioned murder.

think if it this way. if someone you love is wrongfully sentenced to death for a crime they didn't commit and nobody is able to prove the their innocence, are you willing to sacrifice them for the "greater good"?

until there is zero chance of a wrongful conviction, that is what you are advocating if you support the death penalty and that is what will inevitably be forced on innocent families if the death penalty is introduced.

Hitchens · 29-06-2013 03:32PM

vibe666 wrote: »

think if it this way. if someone you love is wrongfully sentenced to death for a crime they didn't commit and nobody is able to prove the their innocence, are you willing to sacrifice them for the "greater good"?

.

afaik, the accused are under no requirement to prove they are innocent

vibe666 · 29-06-2013 03:48PM

Hitchens wrote: »

afaik, the accused are under no requirement to prove they are innocent

stop trying to be pedantic. I'm talking about a wrongful conviction as you well know, which by the very definition the accused and their legal representatives will be in a position where they have to try and prove their innocence.

end of the road · 29-06-2013 04:06PM

DarkJager wrote: »

We have way too many scrotes in this country with 300+ previous convictions who think they are invincible. Prison sentences are simply viewed as a holiday by them. They might think a bit differently about things if there was a death penalty in place.

why do you and others keep coming out with this delusianel nonsense? its been prooven that someone who is the type to break the law will do it whatever the punishment, states in america have the death penalty for murder and so on yet it happens a lot. stop deluding yourself that having the death penalty might or will "make people think twice" doesn't work, never has, never will

Jimmy Garlic · 29-06-2013 04:11PM

vibe666 wrote: »

until you can guarantee 100% with zero chance of error that there will NEVER EVER be a wrongful conviction leading to the execution of an innocent person, there is no room for the death penalty in Ireland or any other country. anything else is nothing more than state sanctioned murder.

think if it this way. if someone you love is wrongfully sentenced to death for a crime they didn't commit and nobody is able to prove the their innocence, are you willing to sacrifice them for the "greater good"?

until there is zero chance of a wrongful conviction, that is what you are advocating if you support the death penalty and that is what will inevitably be forced on innocent families if the death penalty is introduced.

There are many cases involving notorious gangsters in this country. The dogs on the street know they are guilty as sin. They are a scourge on society. They can not be rehabilitated. They are a drain on resources. The solution - the death penalty. The benefits - they are gone for good and a message is sent to the wannabes.

end of the road · 29-06-2013 04:14PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

With all the forensic technology available now the chances of a wrongful conviction are very slim.

still not good enough, forensic technology isn't fool proof, just except it, the death penalty has failed, is a waste of time, and isn't coming back to ireland, if your blood thursty enough go live in china or texas and you can have it away

end of the road · 29-06-2013 04:24PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

There are many cases involving notorious gangsters in this country. The dogs on the street know they are guilty as sin.

do they? the dogs on the street knowing something isn't good enough in court, evidence has to be presented and if the guardai can't find any then no conviction

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

They are a scourge on society. They can not be rehabilitated. They are a drain on resources.

so are supporters of a failure like the death penalty

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The solution - the death penalty.

no it isn't, its to expensive, to risky, and doesn't work in stopping others.

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

The benefits - they are gone for good and a message is sent to the wannabes.

can people like you not get that the death penalty doesn't send any message to those who will break the law or deter them, how hard is it for people to get this?

Hitchens · 29-06-2013 04:37PM

end of the road wrote: »

can people like you not get that the death penalty doesn't send any message to those who will break the law or deter them, how hard is it for people to get this?

the death penalty means that the perp never murders again

crazy cabbage · 29-06-2013 05:16PM

They are a scourge on society. They can not be rehabilitated. They are a drain on resources.

That is because we simply do not try and rehabilitate people.

In the Netherlands they have closed 8 prisons and cut 1200 jobs because they simply do not have the enough prisoners. They are that good at rehabilitating people

This was just announced in the last couple of days and shows that it can be done

We Simply do not even attempt to rehabilitate people.

Radiosonde · 29-06-2013 05:21PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

No, if that were the case, there wouldn't be thousands of unsafe or wrongful convictions overturned at criminal appeal in Ireland and the UK every year (where the appeal doesn't hear any new evidence). Obviously this still goes beyond DNA and forensic evidence.

Are there really thousands or are you exaggerating? I'm an opponent of the death penalty (for many reasons), but with the standard required for prosecution I wouldn't have thought the number of successful appeals ran to that many.

Jimmy Garlic · 29-06-2013 05:23PM

crazy cabbage wrote: »

We Simply do not even attempt to rehabilitate people.

You can not rehabilitate a psychopath. It is impossible.They will go through the motions of "rehabilitation", and tell people what they want to hear, but they will still be violent psychopaths and a danger to society when they are released.

thewayiam · 29-06-2013 05:26PM

Country might not be fcked if this was an option for all the corrupt bankers!

crazy cabbage · 29-06-2013 05:32PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

You can not rehabilitate a psychopath. It is impossible.They will go through the motions of "rehabilitation", and tell people what they want to hear, but they will still be violent psychopaths and a danger to society when they are released.

Not this **** again

Couldn't be bother to rewrite so i will copy and past

crazy cabbage wrote: »

It isn't illegal to be a psychopath.

Some of the best business people and politicians in the world are psychopaths.

2% of people are psychopaths in the general population.

6% (3 times as many!!!) of CEO's of major corporations and politician are psychopaths.

figures taken from a ted talk

I will try and break it down a little further for you.
Two people kill someone is separate instances. Both almost the exact same. One has a mental illness. The other doesn't. Let go and kill the one with the mental illness.

either way the vast majority of psychopaths will live their lives out normally. Hell they will most properly be more successful that either of us. Why do people keep bringing in psychopaths into the debate?

Am i the only one that thinks psychopaths get a bad time?

thewayiam · 29-06-2013 05:34PM

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Not this **** again

Couldn't be bother to rewrite so i will copy and past

I will try and break it down a little further for you.
Two people kill someone is separate instances. Both almost the exact same. One has a mental illness. The other doesn't. Let go and kill the one with the mental illness.

either way the vast majority of psychopaths will live their lives out normally. Hell they will most properly be more successful that either of us. Why do people keep bringing in psychopaths into the debate?

Am i the only one that thinks psychopaths get a bad time?

Ted Bundy was a Saint.

crazy cabbage · 29-06-2013 05:35PM

thewayiam wrote: »

Ted Bundy was a Saint.

Do you want me to start listing off murders who weren't psychopaths? :pac:

thewayiam · 29-06-2013 05:52PM

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Do you want me to start listing off murders who weren't psychopaths? :pac:

My only fear of death is reincarnation.

blackdog2 · 29-06-2013 05:53PM

crazy cabbage wrote: »

Do you want me to start listing off murders who weren't psychopaths? :pac:

Let's list off those who have been executed, and gone on to murder again

crazy cabbage · 29-06-2013 05:59PM

blackdog2 wrote: »

Let's list off those who have been executed, and gone on to murder again

**** it. Yea. I agree. How about we just kill everyone that way no one will be able to murder anyone.

Your being silly. An eye for an eye just doesn't work imo

Manc-Red · 29-06-2013 06:00PM

For me someone who kiddie rapes deserves death.

At the very least they deserve a public battering.

stoneill · 29-06-2013 06:05PM

Jimmy Garlic wrote: »

With all the forensic technology available now the chances of a wrongful conviction are very slim.

CSI isn't real you know - that's all makey uppy computery stuff on telly.
While fallibility exists then to put someone to death is wrong, but even if the courts were always 100% correct then to take a life is still morally wrong.

Hitchens · 29-06-2013 06:16PM

stoneill wrote: »

CSI isn't real you know - that's all makey uppy computery stuff on telly.
While fallibility exists then to put someone to death is wrong, but even if the courts were always 100% correct then to take a life is still morally wrong.

how is it morally wrong in the case of a convicted murderer, or in defence of your life or the lives of other innocents?

Norwesterner · 29-06-2013 06:38PM

vibe666 wrote: »

until you can guarantee 100% with zero chance of error that there will NEVER EVER be a wrongful conviction leading to the execution of an innocent person, there is no room for the death penalty in Ireland or any other country. anything else is nothing more than state sanctioned murder.

think if it this way. if someone you love is wrongfully sentenced to death for a crime they didn't commit and nobody is able to prove the their innocence, are you willing to sacrifice them for the "greater good"?

until there is zero chance of a wrongful conviction, that is what you are advocating if you support the death penalty and that is what will inevitably be forced on innocent families if the death penalty is introduced.

Well, theres the recent case in Woolwich.
Guy witnessed cutting the head of young fella.
Witnessed shouting Allah Akbar.
Gives interview to media justifying his actions.
Arrested by police holding the murder weapon and covered in victims blood.

There are many cases of 100% clarity in guilt.

stoneill · 29-06-2013 06:42PM

Hitchens wrote: »

how is it morally wrong in the case of a convicted murderer, or in defence of your life or the lives of other innocents?

That's two different arguments.
The debate is about a death penalty handed down by the state, it is not a debate where you take the life of someone when you are in a position of trying to defend yourself or others.
If you intend to kill someone, that is morally wrong.
If you did not mean to kill someone, that's a different story.

Would you support the reintroduction of the death penalty?

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