Have you ever been to a Brothel

Czarcasm · 29-06-2013 01:55AM

fatbatman wrote: »

It's a pretty straight forward question (What is wrong with a person selling their body for money?). I don't see why I should have to read an entire thread to get an answer. I'll rephrase it: how is selling sex any different in theory than selling bananas?

You want people to be informed don't you? Well all the information you need is in that thread, and the best place to start informing other people is by informing yourself, and in that thread you will find all the answers to your questions, and then some!

You're a prostitute "sex worker"?

If you don't mind my saying so - you're easily confused!

Why isn't there a single heterosexual male prostitute on escort-Ireland?

I can't speak for Escort Ireland, but what I CAN tell you is that Escort Ireland is not an exhaustive directory of sex workers in Ireland. Many sex workers prefer to operate more discreetly.

A contradiction in opinion... in your opinion. I do not deem the term prostitute to be stigmatic, hence I will continue to use it.

The contradiction I pointed out isn't just an opinion. It's a fact, there in black and white, your own words, you pointed out that people were ill informed and that their viewpoints were illogical, and when your own opinion was pointed out as being ill informed, you still insist on perpetuating the stigma you claim to want to change!

Your own point of view is the textbook definition of illogical.

29-06-2013 01:58AM

fatbatman wrote: »

I see plenty of difference, but if you had bothered to look you'd have seen we were discussing this from a moral standpoint.

Which is the standpoint that bears no comparison.

A banana is a commodity.

Sex is a commodity that can only be accessed through the medium of a person. I'm morally opposed to the commodification of a person.

fatbatman · 29-06-2013 02:02AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

You want people to be informed don't you? Well all the information you need
is in that thread, and the best place to start informing other people is by
informing yourself, and in that thread you will find all the answers to your
questions, and then some!

Judging on the fact you can't give me a straightforward and simple answer, I'm guessing your answer is similar to the one is response to the question "why is feminism still relevant in today's age?" i.e. a bunch of subjective assertions without any concrete evidence whatsoever.

If you don't mind my saying so - you're easily confused!

Back track a bit. I said "all male sex workers are gay or bi" to which you replied "I am neither gay nor bi".. Why would you state that if you weren't implying you were a sex worker?

I can't speak for Escort Ireland, but what I CAN tell you is that Escort Ireland
is not an exhaustive directory of sex workers in Ireland. Many sex workers
prefer to operate more discreetly.

Care to say where these more discreet sex workers operate from?

The contradiction I pointed out isn't just an opinion. It's a fact, there in
black and white, your own words, you pointed out that people were ill informed
and that their viewpoints were illogical, and when your own opinion was pointed
out as being ill informed, you still insist on perpetuating the stigma you claim
to want to change!

Your own point of view is the textbook definition of illogical.

That simply uttering "prostitute" causes actual harm is in no way a fact. I'll say sex worker from now on if it'll make you happy.

Ruudi_Mentari · 29-06-2013 02:04AM

I tagged along, with a desperate fella altogether and wasn't impressed

this big black cockney bitch approached me and I promptly left. Ruudi don't play that kind of crying game

fatbatman · 29-06-2013 02:05AM

Candie wrote: »

Which is the standpoint that bears no comparison.

A banana is a commodity.

Sex is a commodity that can only be accessed through the medium of a person. I'm morally opposed to the commodification of a person.

And bananas aren't??

Are you morally opposed to the employment of a person in a fast food restaurant? If not you're clearly contradicting yourself.

Czarcasm · 29-06-2013 02:06AM

Pug160 wrote: »

You're letting your emotions get the better of you. The part of your paragraph I have highlighted is not logical. The prank caller is attempting to dehumanise prostitutes but you're claiming that anybody who pays for sex is worse.

Pug stop trying to analyse people, you're really not very good at it. We're having a perfectly rational discussion and I'm not letting my emotions get the better of me at all. Now, what is illogical is that you are putting forward the idea that the poster is dehumanising sex workers by wasting their time. I really don't think the poster is thinking that far tbh.

Actually, time wasting is not the same thing at all. A time waster could be someone who was polite but didn't show up for any number of reasons.

In business Pug, time is money, and any time waster is wasting a sex workers opportunities to make money. They don't tend to distinguish between a "nice" time waster and an asshole time waster. They view both with equal measure of disdain.

Caribbean Cat · 29-06-2013 02:09AM

fatbatman wrote: »

It's also funny how human emotions can change a potentially straight forward opinion into a massively biased illogical one.

Don't pretend that all men who pay for sex are monsters that you are "morally superior" to, they're the same as you just making different choices under difference circumstances.

I haven't frequented brothels myself so I cannot give you an opinion based on facts, but this is what people very close to me have told me.Now, I have no moral compass towards this, I really dont care what people do legally.However sometimes the people who use brothels do not consider the people involved as people. Humans.Creatures who have feelings and emotions. But then they meet somebody whom they fall in love with and suddenly they see people as people. I dont judge because hey! Its not MY body!I dont understand how I have upset you?

29-06-2013 02:10AM

fatbatman wrote: »

And bananas aren't??

Are you morally opposed to the employment of a person in a fast food restaurant? If not you're contradicting yourself.

I don't understand how someone could compare the invasive nature of sex acts with total strangers with flipping burgers, but it's a comparison that doesn't hold up to me.

fatbatman · 29-06-2013 02:11AM

Caribbean Cat wrote: »

I haven't frequented brothels myself so I cannot give you an opinion based on facts, but this is what people very close to me have told me.Now, I have no moral compass towards this, I really dont care what people do legally.However sometimes the people who use brothels do not consider the people involved as people. Humans.Creatures who have feelings and emotions. But then they meet somebody whom they fall in love with and suddenly they see people as people. I dont judge because hey! Its not MY body!I dont understand how I have upset you?

It's a SERVICE. We all avail of them every day. This is the point that seems to somehow evade many people who seemingly aren't too fond of logic.

fatbatman · 29-06-2013 02:13AM

Candie wrote: »

I don't understand how someone could compare the invasive nature of sex acts with total strangers with flipping burgers, but it's a comparison that doesn't hold up to me.

You forgot the part where one pays 40 times more than the other, there's where the difference lies to balance out the comparison.

Czarcasm · 29-06-2013 02:13AM

fatbatman wrote: »

I see plenty of difference, but if you had bothered to look you'd have seen we were discussing this from a moral standpoint.

Yourself and Pug are the only posters arguing anything from a moral standpoint, and yours is an ill informed standpoint at that. At least Pug has made an effort to put some thought into their posts, whereas your posts display a clear lack of any effort or thought to understand the issues involved.

fatbatman · 29-06-2013 02:16AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Yourself and Pug are the only posters arguing anything from a moral standpoint, and yours is an ill informed standpoint at that. At least Pug has made an effort to put some thought into their posts, whereas your posts display a clear lack of any effort or thought to understand the issues involved.

It's not an argument from a moral standpoint?

If not, then the only possible standpoint you could be taking here is that sex work is wrong because you don't like it. You really despise logic and reason, don't you?

LETHAL LADY · 29-06-2013 02:18AM

Lapdances and peepshows are as far as I have ventured, I have to say it was fairly lacklustre in the grand scheme of things.

Pug160 · 29-06-2013 02:19AM

Czarcasm wrote: »

Pug stop trying to analyse people, you're really not very good at it. We're having a perfectly rational discussion and I'm not letting my emotions get the better of me at all. Now, what is illogical is that you are putting forward the idea that the poster is dehumanising sex workers by wasting their time. I really don't think the poster is thinking that far tbh.

In business Pug, time is money, and any time waster is wasting a sex workers opportunities to make money. They don't tend to distinguish between a "nice" time waster and an asshole time waster. They view both with equal measure of disdain.

That's incorrect. Time wasting is not dehumanising in itself. But in the poster's case, his intent was probably to do so because of the way he was interacting with her. It wasn't simple time wasting, it was an attempt to embarrass her and (in his eyes) make her feel worthless.

29-06-2013 02:22AM

fatbatman wrote: »

It's a SERVICE. We all avail of them every day. This is the point that seems to somehow evade many people who seemingly aren't too fond of logic.

How many services involve surrendering one's bodily integrity? I don't avail of any service that requires of anyone else to put their orifices out to tender for deposits from strangers.

There is no logic in the claim that everyday we all avail of services equal to using a sex worker.

Pug160 · 29-06-2013 02:23AM

Caribbean Cat wrote: »

I haven't frequented brothels myself so I cannot give you an opinion based on facts, but this is what people very close to me have told me.Now, I have no moral compass towards this, I really dont care what people do legally.However sometimes the people who use brothels do not consider the people involved as people. Humans.Creatures who have feelings and emotions. But then they meet somebody whom they fall in love with and suddenly they see people as people. I dont judge because hey! Its not MY body!I dont understand how I have upset you?

A lot of them probably don't. But I'm sure a lot of people who have one night stands don't care too much about the other person either. Most people do see others as people but it depends on the situation. You probably don't think too deeply about the pizza delivery boy - you probably just see him as the pizza delivery boy. Not every situation in life is particularly deep.

29-06-2013 02:23AM

fatbatman wrote: »

You forgot the part where one pays 40 times more than the other, there's where the difference lies to balance out the comparison.

Yes. All sex workers are rich. They all get to keep every last penny.

This from the poster claiming he's a voice of reason and logic.

fatbatman · 29-06-2013 02:26AM

Candie wrote: »

How many services involve surrendering one's bodily integrity? I don't avail of any service that requires of anyone else to put their orifices out to tender for deposits from strangers.

There is no logic in the claim that everyday we all avail of services equal to using a sex worker.

Can you argue your specific distinctions using actual logic? If not, you have no argument plain and simple. Other emotionally-driven individuals may agree with you, but that does not make you right in any true sense.

fatbatman · 29-06-2013 02:28AM

Candie wrote: »

Yes. All sex workers are rich. They all get to keep every last penny.

This from the poster claiming he's a voice of reason and logic.

Don't derive from the facts. If one chooses to get a job in McDonalds vs selling their sex for cash, they will make a very significant amount more doing the latter than they would doing the former.

Caribbean Cat · 29-06-2013 02:28AM

Pug160 wrote: »

A lot of them probably don't. But I'm sure a lot of people who have one night stands don't care too much about the other person either. Most people do see others as people but it depends on the situation. You probably don't think too deeply about the pizza delivery boy - you probably just see him as the pizza delivery boy. Not every situation in life is particularly deep.

I consider everyone as human, that's why I smile at strangers, say Thank You and Please.I do not think you can compare a pizza delivery to sex work.If YOU think that things are just a simple transaction involving money, well then my dear person, you should have a good long hard look at yourself or be a banker.
In between drowning puppies and kittens of course.

fatbatman · 29-06-2013 02:34AM

Caribbean Cat wrote: »

I consider everyone as human, that's why I smile at strangers, say Thank You and Please.I do not think you can compare a pizza delivery to sex work.If YOU think that things are just a simple transaction involving money, well then my dear person, you should have a good long hard look at yourself or be a banker.
In between drowning puppies and kittens of course.

You still avail of services from other humans to facilitate your own interests, as do men who use sex workers. The way in which you or they view these people is irrelevant. One person could resect a sex worker they are paying for sex more than another person would respect a pizza-man they are paying to deliver pizza.

What you think is only as relevant as you can back up with evidence. How is paying someone for sex more morally objectionable than paying someone to deliver pizza?

Pug160 · 29-06-2013 02:35AM

Caribbean Cat wrote: »

I consider everyone as human, that's why I smile at strangers, say Thank You and Please.I do not think you can compare a pizza delivery to sex work.If YOU think that things are just a simple transaction involving money, well then my dear person, you should have a good long hard look at yourself or be a banker.
In between drowning puppies and kittens of course.

Smiling and saying thank you is just common courtesy. Most people do that automatically without really thinking about it. I wasn't comparing a delivery boy to a sex worker, I was pointing out that not every interaction in life is profound.

I'm sure you're a lovely person but you do sound a little bit sanctimonious if you don't mind me saying.

Czarcasm · 29-06-2013 02:36AM

fatbatman wrote: »

Judging on the fact you can't give me a straightforward and simple answer, I'm guessing your answer is similar to the one is response to the question "why is feminism still relevant in today's age?" i.e. a bunch of subjective assertions without any concrete evidence whatsoever.

All the concrete evidence you need is in that thread I linked you to earlier. You want people to be informed, so the best place to start, is with yourself. You'll find my answers to all your questions in that thread. I'm not a feminist either btw, but I see how it's now become clear that the stigma you were referring to wasn't the stigmatising of sex workers, it was the stigmatising of people who avail of their services. Well, that's THEIR problem!

Back track a bit. I said "all male sex workers are gay or bi" to which you replied "I am neither gay nor bi".. Why would you state that if you weren't implying you were a sex worker?

Because I'm not gay or bi. And neither are many of my friends who are still in the business. Some sex workers of are gay or bi, but not all.

Care to say where these more discreet sex workers operate from?

That wouldn't be very discrete now, would it?

That simply uttering "prostitute" causes actual harm is in no way a fact.

It IS a fact though-

Q. Why do you use the term sex worker rather than prostitute?

Because when sex workers are asked about their activity they describe what they do as "work" or "working". Moreover, the term sex work is also used by the World Health Organisation (WHO 2001; WHO 2005) and the United Nations (UN 2006; UNAIDS 2002). The term sex worker refers to a woman or man who exchanges or trades sexual acts for money. The term sex work is also less stigmatising and has fewer moral connotations.

The above is from the Sex Workers Alliance Ireland webste, who are actively trying to change society's perception of sex work in Ireland. Continuing to refer to sex workers as "prostitutes" is seen by sex workers as harmful in achieving that objective.

I'll say sex worker from now on if it'll make you happy.

It does, thank you, and sex workers will be glad of your greater understanding also.

29-06-2013 02:39AM

fatbatman wrote: »

Can you argue your specific distinctions using actual logic? If not, you have no argument plain and simple. Other emotionally-driven individuals may agree with you, but that does not make you right in any true sense.

I have, you just choose not to engage with my argument (that human beings are intrinsically more complex than bananas and that comparisons between flipping burgers and allowing strangers to ejaculate in any given orifice are rather spurious, if not flippant).

You choose not to acknowledge that a persons sexual identity is a very nuanced and complicated thing involving physical and psychological as well as sexual components, but instead refer to using another persons body for your sole gratifcation, for money, as a service like any other.

I happen to disagree.

You feel that the monetary differential between flipping burgers closes the gap on any comparative failing each job description has. I pointed out that you have no way of knowing how much of your cash the sex worker gets to actually keep.

You brushed that aside.

We are never going to agree on any aspect of this.

Czarcasm · 29-06-2013 02:44AM

Pug160 wrote: »

Smiling and saying thank you is just common courtesy. Most people do that automatically without really thinking about it. I wasn't comparing a delivery boy to a sex worker, I was pointing out that not every interaction in life is profound.

I'm sure you're a lovely person but you do sound a little bit sanctimonious if you don't mind me saying.

Ahh now Pug, that's a bit rich coming from a guy that's claiming a posters prank calling sex workers is attempting to dehumanise them.

The whole point of people paying for sex is that they don't HAVE to think of sex workers as human beings!

fatbatman · 29-06-2013 02:46AM

Candie wrote: »

I have, you just choose not to engage with my argument (that human beings are intrinsically more complex than bananas and that comparisons between flipping burgers and allowing strangers to ejaculate in any given orifice are rather spurious, if not flippant).

You choose not to acknowledge that a persons sexual identity is a very nuanced and complicated thing involving physical and psychological as well as sexual components, but instead refer to using another persons body for your sole gratifcation, for money, as a service like any other.

I happen to disagree.

You feel that the monetary differential between flipping burgers closes the gap on any comparative failing each job description has. I pointed out that you have no way of knowing how much of your cash the sex worker gets to actually keep.

You brushed that aside.

We are never going to agree on any aspect of this.

We are arguing about principles here, not feelings. Is your involvement in this thread anything other than sanctimonious?

Czarcasm · 29-06-2013 02:48AM

fatbatman wrote: »

It's not an argument from a moral standpoint? If not, then the only possible standpoint you could be taking here is that sex work is wrong because you don't like it. You really despise logic and reason, don't you?

Wait now a minute. Morality is the antithesis of logic and reason. Morality IS the point of view that says "I don't like it" or in your case "I don't see a problem with it".

I have directed you to a thread that argues facts and logic against your "They are providing an essential service, men need sex" nonsense.

29-06-2013 02:50AM

fatbatman wrote: »

We are arguing about principles here. Is your involvement in this thread anything other than sanctimonious?

Not agreeing with you doesn't equate to being sanctimonious.

I may not share your principles, but at the very least I can be polite.

Caribbean Cat · 29-06-2013 02:51AM

Pug160 wrote: »

Smiling and saying thank you is just common courtesy. Most people do that automatically without really thinking about it. I wasn't comparing a delivery boy to a sex worker, I was pointing out that not every interaction in life is profound.

I'm sure you're a lovely person but you do sound a little bit sanctimonious if you don't mind me saying.

How polite of you to notice my sanctimoniousness.I am the least sanctimonious person you could ever meet, but I am argumentative when I feel a wrong is being done. Perhaps I speak and write well?Is that what makes you feel that I am up my own behind?
Like I said, I do not judge people who use brothels but at the end of the day, the women and men involved in the transactions are human, they have feelings and should be treated as such.I would imagine you would be more than happy to have your mum, dad, sister, brother, dog and cat involved in sex work if it is only a transaction involving money.

Czarcasm · 29-06-2013 02:53AM

fatbatman wrote: »

We are arguing about principles here, not feelings. Is your involvement in this thread anything other than sanctimonious?

One minute you say you're arguing morality, which is your gut feeling on the subject, then you say you're arguing principles, which are based on a moral code, and now you're asking another poster is their involvement anything other than sanctimonious when your earlier argument was that sex workers are providing an essential service and men need sex!

I don't think you know what you're saying tbh, I think you're just arguing for the sake of argument and refusing to inform yourself.

Have you ever been to a Brothel

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