The Electric Car

Jumboman · 18-06-2013 6:16pm #1

Does anyone believe their is a consipiracy to stop the electric car becoming a viable alternative to the petrol car ?

Torakx · 18-06-2013 9:56pm

It certainly wouldn't suprise me.
I'm not sure about power alternatives.
But looking at Teslas work, with his electric car and plans for power distribution, I think had he been fully supported, things might be very different now...but still under the same tyrants of course

With more people working on "over unity" engines etc, the idea is becoming more popular to steer away from petrol.
Even if they dont reach over unity, they have managed to make some very resourceful alternatives.

I am sure that when something awesome is released it wont be from some random guy working in his shed having control of it.
And for that reason, I'm not sure its a straight cut conspiracy.
I think big corps and military will be using that before the masses get a hold of it.
And when petrol is done, then they might be ready to roll out the next stage of sucking us dry.

At the moment I think the excuse given, is that its not a viable option to use our power grid to power our cars as well.
I think the technology is probably already there to make it a viable option.But the profit margins might not be good enough compared to selling bombs and petrol which seem to go hand in hand.

BloodBath · 18-06-2013 10:19pm

Lot's of advances have been held up for various reasons. We should be running Thorium powered Nuclear plants with at least 50% electric car penetration by now. They are perfect for cities but won't replace heavy fossil vehicles or long range vehicles anytime soon.

One good Thorium plant would provide Dublin with most if not all of it's energy needs including electric car charges. It would be cheaper greener power for the whole country. The network could be backed up with wind/water energy for the rest of the country.

Ireland is far too backward to lead the way in anything like that though. Thorium is being looked into by other countries though and electric cars finally seem to be gaining some respect despite efforts to hold them back.

I don't think they were very viable until Lithium batteries were affordable. Carbon rod batteries should make even long range and heavy battery vehicles possible.

NIMAN · 19-06-2013 12:12pm

BloodBath · 19-06-2013 1:11pm

I remember watching that.

Not gonna watch it again but was there something in it about oil companies buying out electric car patents so they couldn't be used?

Cookie_Monster · 21-06-2013 1:03am

the in-efficiency inherent to batteries and charging time is killing the electric car, not some conspiracy.
when batteries or capacitors become cheaper and viable then it'll take off, not until then though

BloodBath · 21-06-2013 4:42am

They are viable and have been for years. Charging your car at home is not hard and the energy costs work out a lot cheaper than petrol or diesel. They are starting to role out charge points in cities and towns even in Ireland.

There are grants to reduce the cost of buying the car, your road tax will be the cheapest, and you get far cheaper fuel especially to those in cheap nuclear energy countries like france and the uk. It works out 5-10 times cheaper per miles than diesel or petrol. You will also not need to buy motor oil and you won't have to get the car serviced as often or parts replaced as often.

It works out cheaper than a conventional car in the long run. The range of the cars is more than enough as well for the average driver. The range on the model s is up to 260 miles. The average driver does 20 miles in a day.

The more popular it becomes the more charge points will appear everywhere so even the long occasional drive can be done.

They also have crazy fast acceleration rivaling sports cars. The 416bhp Tesla model S can do 0 - 60mph in 4.0 seconds with a top speed of 136mph. Whats not to like?

That car isn't cheap but it is a premium model.

Cookie_Monster · 21-06-2013 4:46am

Time to charge car 6-10 hours
Time to fill with petrol 2 mins

Range of elec maybe 100-150km
Range of petrol car 600km+

charge required every day, if not more often. Petrol once a week or less.

Not practical at all...

shedweller · 21-06-2013 5:21am

I remember when i was in NZ this news article came up once...once...that featured this lad that modified his car to include water, or more specifically, steam as part of the combustion process. The aim was more mpg and although i don't remember the exact increase, it was quite a bit. The news channel even had a short interview with him and showed us the engine with more than a bit extra pipework going on!

My point is that we heard of this lad and his invention once and once only. Rest assured that other similar ideas are shelved for future reference. Be they batteries etc.

BloodBath · 21-06-2013 5:37am

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Time to charge car 6-10 hours
Time to fill with petrol 2 mins

Range of elec maybe 100-150km
Range of petrol car 600km+

charge required every day, if not more often. Petrol once a week or less.

Not practical at all...

That's for a full charge. You don't have to do a full charge if you only need to top up for the trip home.

There are supercharger stations that can do full charges in 45 minutes as well. They are trying to reduce this to 25 minutes.

These charges are also completely free, provided in the cost of the car, and run by Tesla themselves.

You can charge the car at home or in parking spaces in towns/cities.

You charge your phone and other appliances at night when they need charging. How is it a problem?

The max ranges are closer to 250 miles at 55mph which is nearly 90kmh. That range at our motorway limit of 120kph will of course be reduced but it will still be more than enough for most people. Their batteries and efficiency ranges are improving all the time. They have 300 mile range ones.

The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

shedweller · 21-06-2013 6:48am

BloodBath wrote: »

The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

For us, that is. Not the lads who stand to lose billions in oil revenue etc.

thebman · 22-06-2013 3:44pm

Torakx wrote: »

It certainly wouldn't suprise me.
I'm not sure about power alternatives.
But looking at Teslas work, with his electric car and plans for power distribution, I think had he been fully supported, things might be very different now...but still under the same tyrants of course

Tesla got pretty good support, a half billion loan from the US Department of Energy.

I don't think there is a conspiracy theory. I think things are just slow to change as most people are happy with existing cars so there is no major driver for change.

If oil goes through the roof, people will expect a magical, overnight alternative though so it is important to develop one but you can't pour resources into it as it isn't justified at the moment.

TheBikeGuy · 23-06-2013 1:33am

I did my thesis on a lot of this subject area and i have no hesitation in saying the electric car, while being powered by lithium batteries has absolutely no chance of replacing fuel powered vehicles.

I'll some up the major points quickly

1. Lithium is an extremely rare metal, there isn't enough on this planet to power even a minority of the amount of vehicles used worldwide. 20,000 Tonnes of lithium are refined every year, compare that to 1.4 million tonnes of Nickel.

2. Most of worldwide lithium production is already required for the electronics industry. This makes lithium extremely expensive. A huge increase in demand with no additional supply available is going to push prices through the roof. Electric cars are already struggling to produce cheap batteries, if they became mainstream (their is 1 billion vehicles worldwide) the price could easily be $50,000 - $100,000 per car just on the lithium batteries

3. Lithium degrades over time, meaning the battery can hold less charge, and range decreases over time

4. Charging times are ridiculous for an average individual, fast charging isn't a solution because it severely damages the batteries with regular use

5. Lithium has a low energy to weight ratio, making large range capabilities impossible to achieve in a passenger vehicle.

6. Lithium batteries are explosive when a cell is punctured, I wouldn't be too comfortable driving one

http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf

Electric vehicles will never be a success with these batteries, no conspiracy about it.

There are alternatives out their which are viable, although not without some problems, so theirs no danger that the car will become a piece of history once oil prices sky rocket

goz83 · 23-06-2013 9:37am

Watched that video. I didn't realise that had happened. Effin rednecks.

fryup · 23-06-2013 10:01am

in this day & age with all the technology that we have surely there must be someone out there with a solution/invention for the car industry

goz83 · 23-06-2013 10:25am

fryup wrote: »

in this day & age with all the technology that we have surely there must be someone out there with a solution/invention for the car industry

With all the solutions, the powers that be (oil tycoons etc) have the money and power to kill any solution in the name of greed. I mean seriously!! Who the fcuk needs a billion quid in their current sccount?

Jumboman · 26-06-2013 1:58am

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

1. Lithium is an extremely rare metal,

If Lithium is extremely rare how come we are all using it in our phones and laptops ?

Cookie_Monster · 26-06-2013 2:04am

Jumboman wrote: »

If Lithium is extremely rare how come we are all using it in our phones and laptops ?

he even addressed the point in his post, have a read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

Silver and gold are also rare but are used in electronics...

NIMAN · 26-06-2013 2:21am

fryup wrote: »

in this day & age with all the technology that we have surely there must be someone out there with a solution/invention for the car industry

Maybe someone has, and this is what became of them too

BloodBath · 26-06-2013 9:36pm

1. Lithium is an extremely rare metal, there isn't enough on this planet to power even a minority of the amount of vehicles used worldwide. 20,000 Tonnes of lithium are refined every year, compare that to 1.4 million tonnes of Nickel.

2. Most of worldwide lithium production is already required for the electronics industry. This makes lithium extremely expensive. A huge increase in demand with no additional supply available is going to push prices through the roof. Electric cars are already struggling to produce cheap batteries, if they became mainstream (their is 1 billion vehicles worldwide) the price could easily be $50,000 - $100,000 per car just on the lithium batteries

You have a point. There are several replacements for Lithium batteries in the pipeline though. At the moment tesla markets the cars to upper/middle class people as that is all that could afford the cars but they rival their competition in that price bracket. Their clearly isn't enough Lithium to go around to replace all cars but that won't be a problem in the near future.

3. Lithium degrades over time, meaning the battery can hold less charge, and range decreases over time

Car engines degrade over time too, become less fuel efficient and need to be serviced more often. Electric cars don't need to be serviced practically ever.

4. Charging times are ridiculous for an average individual, fast charging isn't a solution because it severely damages the batteries with regular use

6 hour empty to full charge times aren't ridiculous. What else are you doing when you come home in the evening? The super charge stations are only meant for long journeys. The majority of people won't even come close to using the range of the cars in the majority of their journeys. Wide scale adoption would lead to more and more charge points making it even less of an issue. You could charge while in work.

5. Lithium has a low energy to weight ratio, making large range capabilities impossible to achieve in a passenger vehicle.

Yet they have 300 mile range models already. You are wrong.

6. Lithium batteries are explosive when a cell is punctured, I wouldn't be too comfortable driving one

No they aren't. They have protections in place to stop anything like that happening. You would have to remove this protection and massively overcharge the battery for that to happen. Petrol could be regarded as explosive yet you don't mind driving a car with gallons of the stuff in it. Petrol or oil ignitions in cars actually lead to road deaths every year. Show me a single road death relating to lithium explosions or fires.

The cars have been designed to be 5 star crash safety rated. They have far more safety features than the majority of cars on the road.

How much research did you actually do for this Thesis?

Penn · 27-06-2013 8:33am

BloodBath wrote: »

How much research did you actually do for this Thesis?

Tone it down, Bloodbath. Don't make personal comments.

TheBikeGuy · 28-06-2013 4:36pm

BloodBath wrote: »

You have a point. There are several replacements for Lithium batteries in the pipeline though. At the moment tesla markets the cars to upper/middle class people as that is all that could afford the cars but they rival their competition in that price bracket. Their clearly isn't enough Lithium to go around to replace all cars but that won't be a problem in the near future.

Car engines degrade over time too, become less fuel efficient and need to be serviced more often. Electric cars don't need to be serviced practically ever.

6 hour empty to full charge times aren't ridiculous. What else are you doing when you come home in the evening? The super charge stations are only meant for long journeys. The majority of people won't even come close to using the range of the cars in the majority of their journeys. Wide scale adoption would lead to more and more charge points making it even less of an issue. You could charge while in work.

Yet they have 300 mile range models already. You are wrong.

No they aren't. They have protections in place to stop anything like that happening. You would have to remove this protection and massively overcharge the battery for that to happen. Petrol could be regarded as explosive yet you don't mind driving a car with gallons of the stuff in it. Petrol or oil ignitions in cars actually lead to road deaths every year. Show me a single road death relating to lithium explosions or fires.

The cars have been designed to be 5 star crash safety rated. They have far more safety features than the majority of cars on the road.

How much research did you actually do for this Thesis?

Give examples of replacement batteries that are viable and capable of powering a vehicle?

Car engines degrade slightly over time, not enough to significantly effect the driving range where it becomes impractical, the same cannot be said for electric cars

Have you ever heard of anyone complaining about the range of their engine vehicle because of degradation? :rolleyes:

Hahah if you believe this 300 mile range claim, in reality its 300 miles range at exceptionally low speeds (something like 20mph), look how the range decreases as speed increases in the Tesla

http://www.motorauthority.com/image/100179459_tesla-roadster-range-versus-speed

Furthermore to get this '300 mile' range Tesla cram in as much batteries as possible, taking the weight of the batteries up to 450kg, nearly half a tonne per car!! Theres only 20,000 Tonnes of Lithium produced each year :pac: Not to mention it makes the car cost nearly $100,000

And thats in the Tesla, think of the lower spec EVs, i.e the Leaf, the range can be halved with high speed driving!!

Also look at the effects turning on the AC does :pac:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=tesla+range+vs+speed&rlz=1C1TEUA_enIE499IE499&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=N6nNUf2dOoep7AbF_4BA&biw=1366&bih=643&sei=OqnNUZ62M4-I7Aa01IGwBA#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=PaAK-hVVAtIh3M%3A%3B4OVHLFGPkMRngM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.solarjourneyusa.com%252FPictures%252FACloadeffect.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.solarjourneyusa.com%252FEVdistanceAnalysis5.php%3B555%3B479

Charging times are ridiculous. 6 hours is ridiculous. 1 hour would be ridiculous. People don't want to be restricted with their cars.

Electric cars are laughable with current technology. I'm a big proponent of EVs, but they have a hell of a long way to go.

I've been around electric vehicle conversions and experienced the range issues, as well as the AC issues first hand, I know what I'm talking about

P.S My friend was telling me a story of when he was driving his EV against a strong wind and he said the range dropped off massively!!!

Tzar Chasm · 28-06-2013 6:02pm

engine degradation in fossil fuel powered vehicles is a real and measurable phenomonen.

without regular servicing and parts replacement a petrol engine will experience serious issues, a major issue is piston ring wear, electric cars don't require oil changes, they can't burn out a clutch or bend a conrod, you cant overheat one and blow the head, gasket failure can be critical in some cases, but more often than not the car will still drive, but with a loss of power.

EV's are a reasonable solution to the vast majority of peoples personal transport needs, if I were in a position to buy a new car I'd get an EV for my daily commuting requirements, charge it overnight, charge it during the day in college, 150Km of range is far more than most reasonable people require for their daily driver, I would also have an E39 530D for any long trips I might make.

BloodBath · 29-06-2013 8:37pm

Give examples of replacement batteries that are viable and capable of powering a vehicle?

There are many groups of scientists working on more efficient mass producible alternatives to Lithium at the moment. Most of the breakthroughs are still using Lithium in the batteries but would allow for 10 times the current electrical storage capacity. This means they could massively reduce the battery size/weight while still doubling or tripling it's power storage capacity. The combined weight reduction and extra capacity would increase ranges dramatically beyond fossil fuel cars.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/fuel-economy/8-potential-ev-and-hybrid-battery-breakthroughs#slide-1

Car engines degrade slightly over time, not enough to significantly effect the driving range where it becomes impractical, the same cannot be said for electric cars

Have you ever heard of anyone complaining about the range of their engine vehicle because of degradation?

As tzar has already pointed out fossil engine cars do suffer from degradation even more so than electrical vehicles. Yes I have heard about people complain about degradation. Every time you need to get an engine part replaced or fixed/cleaned is because of degradation. If you've ever owned a newish car and had it long enough you would notice it's fuel efficiency being a lot worse over time. Regular servicing helps reduce this but that again costs money.

Hahah if you believe this 300 mile range claim, in reality its 300 miles range at exceptionally low speeds (something like 20mph), look how the range decreases as speed increases in the Tesla

http://www.motorauthority.com/image/...e-versus-speed

Furthermore to get this '300 mile' range Tesla cram in as much batteries as possible, taking the weight of the batteries up to 450kg, nearly half a tonne per car!! Theres only 20,000 Tonnes of Lithium produced each year Not to mention it makes the car cost nearly $100,000

And thats in the Tesla, think of the lower spec EVs, i.e the Leaf, the range can be halved with high speed driving!!

Also look at the effects turning on the AC does

https://www.google.ie/search?q=tesla...hp%3B555%3B479

Their ranges are calculated at 55mph. A 300 mile range battery even reduced by factors like higher speed, AC, high winds ect would still have more than enough range for the majority of road users. The battery tech is only going to improve until it exceeds petrol engines.

The entry level models are $50k. The ones around €100k rival their European counterparts mercedes/bmw in performance and features for cars they have at that price point. It's a sports car not a family wagon. I don't think you will find many cars than can do 0 - 60 in 3.9 seconds for less than that price.

Turning on the AC in a fossil fuel car also reduces it's range / burns more fuel as does high speed driving.

Charging times are ridiculous. 6 hours is ridiculous. 1 hour would be ridiculous. People don't want to be restricted with their cars.

6 hours from empty to full which can be done in the evenings or at a home. There are charge points all over the place even in Ireland. We have around 100 charge points. Considering a less than 1% market share of EV's this is pretty good. With a wider EV market share this would number into the thousands. They can be charged in 25 mins from empty to full at a super charger station ( The equivalent of a petrol station )

Electric cars are laughable with current technology. I'm a big proponent of EVs, but they have a hell of a long way to go.

You clearly aren't and no they don't. I'd expect to start seeing mainstream reasonably priced EV's within 5 years.

TheBikeGuy · 29-06-2013 9:16pm

Your living in fairyland.

Not one of them is capable and viable to power and electric vehicle. There simply experimental technologies with absolutely no certainty of being proven. You may as well be saying all cars will soon be powered by nuclear fusion.. saying so doesn't make it so.

Yes and what happens if fuel consumption decreases slightly in a fuel vehicle, you just add more fuel in. What happens in an electric vehicle if the range drops down massively? Your waiting 6 hours :pac:

The problem with AC in an electric car, you brush it off just because AC lowers fuel consumption in an engine vehicle, thats ridiculous, its a very real problem with significant lowers the range of an electric vehicle.

No the range isn't measured at 55mph, your wrong. The range is reduced by roughly 50% at these speeds.

So lets say im going down the motorway at 80 miles an hour in an EV with my AC on fuel blast, how far do you reckon the Leaf will go? The official range is 117km, would it even go 40km at them speeds and with the AC? Oh and then theres the small matter of going home again :pac:

And the charging points are never blocked by other vehicles? :rolleyes:
Superchargers wreck the batteries as stated earlier

Do you drive an EV?

Your bias is outstanding

Tzar Chasm · 29-06-2013 11:12pm

one of the most interesting new avenues being developed in battery technology is graphene capacitors, the technology is still in its infancy but the research is promising.

imagine making a monocoque chassis that was a battery and solar cell itself

fleet · 30-06-2013 9:49am

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

I did my thesis on a lot of this subject area and i have no hesitation in saying the electric car, while being powered by lithium batteries has absolutely no chance of replacing fuel powered vehicles.

I'll some up the major points quickly

1. Lithium is an extremely rare metal, there isn't enough on this planet to power even a minority of the amount of vehicles used worldwide. 20,000 Tonnes of lithium are refined every year, compare that to 1.4 million tonnes of Nickel.

2. Most of worldwide lithium production is already required for the electronics industry. This makes lithium extremely expensive. A huge increase in demand with no additional supply available is going to push prices through the roof. Electric cars are already struggling to produce cheap batteries, if they became mainstream (their is 1 billion vehicles worldwide) the price could easily be $50,000 - $100,000 per car just on the lithium batteries

3. Lithium degrades over time, meaning the battery can hold less charge, and range decreases over time

4. Charging times are ridiculous for an average individual, fast charging isn't a solution because it severely damages the batteries with regular use

5. Lithium has a low energy to weight ratio, making large range capabilities impossible to achieve in a passenger vehicle.

6. Lithium batteries are explosive when a cell is punctured, I wouldn't be too comfortable driving one

http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf

Electric vehicles will never be a success with these batteries, no conspiracy about it.

There are alternatives out their which are viable, although not without some problems, so theirs no danger that the car will become a piece of history once oil prices sky rocket

Nonsense.

1. There is in excess of 2000 years supply based on current extraction.

2. The US, among others, has untapped (but known) reserves that they don't extract due to it being cheaper to import. Point being that given such huge untapped global reserves price cannot rise in line with demand.

3. Yes, lithium batteries degrade. So does every lead acid starter battery in every petrol car. We do what we've always done with them and recycle them to make new batteries.

4. Charge time will probably never beat petrol. But it doesn't have to. Most people don't commute more than a few tens of kilometres. That's no problem for batteries, just plug the car in overnight like you do your phone.

5. Eh... Tesla car? 300km?? Range will only get better too. Right now it's half what a large full petrol tank, that's already beyond what most people need. Rent a petrol car for those occasional long journies until range improves.

6. Ah hahahaha! You drive a petrol car? Damn things are highly tuned fuel air bombs! Don't go saying lithium is any more dangerous. I ride a petrol motobike, I know what 17L of petrol feels like with my crotch resting on it.

I'm not saying that electric cars will take over, or are better than competing technologies. Just that they are viable, and viable right now for the vast majority.

TheBikeGuy · 30-06-2013 1:42pm

fleet wrote: »

Nonsense.

1. There is in excess of 2000 years supply based on current extraction.

2. The US, among others, has untapped (but known) reserves that they don't extract due to it being cheaper to import. Point being that given such huge untapped global reserves price cannot rise in line with demand.

3. Yes, lithium batteries degrade. So does every lead acid starter battery in every petrol car. We do what we've always done with them and recycle them to make new batteries.

4. Charge time will probably never beat petrol. But it doesn't have to. Most people don't commute more than a few tens of kilometres. That's no problem for batteries, just plug the car in overnight like you do your phone.

5. Eh... Tesla car? 300km?? Range will only get better too. Right now it's half what a large full petrol tank, that's already beyond what most people need. Rent a petrol car for those occasional long journies until range improves.

6. Ah hahahaha! You drive a petrol car? Damn things are highly tuned fuel air bombs! Don't go saying lithium is any more dangerous. I ride a petrol motobike, I know what 17L of petrol feels like with my crotch resting on it.

I'm not saying that electric cars will take over, or are better than competing technologies. Just that they are viable, and viable right now for the vast majority.

Nothing nonsense about it i'm afraid,

1. You've overestimated world reserves by roughly 70%. furthermore you've based your theory on current extraction which would be unable to provide enough to manufacture a significant number of vehicles.

2. The US does not have large reserves of lithium, they have about 3% of worldwide lithium reserves

3. Yes but a lead acid battery does not power a car, if a lead acid degrades by 50% it will still start a car and no range or performance issues will result. If a lithium battery degrades by 50% in an electric car the range will be halved.

4. Yes they are no problem for urban commuters within reasonable distances, but there not robust enough imo for the average user, hence while there not popular. People will not want to rent a car anytime they want to go for a long drive with the kids or visit relatives down the country.

5. Yes the Tesla is an amazing car, but its beyond the average consumer and its stated range is a myth, its more like 150 - 200 miles. Still very acceptable, but once again, its not a solution for the average driver

6. By point about lithium being dangerous is that all it takes is for one cell to be pierced to start a chain reaction, imo this is much more likely to occur in a EV, like the tesla which is packed with 450 kg of lithium, than in a normal car during a crash, as petrol requires ignition to become flammable. Two cars colliding will do serious structural damage and piercing would be more like to occur then ignition! Just something to note that EVs aren't without there own hazards.

Believe me or not I am a proponent of EV tech, but I don't think mollycoddling the technology will get us anywhere. We need to be demanding as consumers and not accept trade downs in performance or convenience.

Heres a video showing what can happen to lithium batteries, note this is just a laptop with a few hundred grams of lithium, imaging a car with 450 kg of the stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pizFsY0yjss

Tzar Chasm · 30-06-2013 5:21pm

i don't see where you get the idea that the average driver requires more than 150 km for a daily driver, especially here in ireland. 80% of the populations transport needs could easily be accommodated with EV's

in most normal situations people drive to a destination and have some time span before departure, this can range from 8 hours for a work commute to 30- 45 minutes for just nipping down to the shops, so in most normal situations there is ample time to recharge the car.

the other 20% will be better suited to petrol/diesel engines, but as I said earlier I would expect to see most familys who currently run 2 or more cars to switch one of them to electric initially, then as the technology improves more and more people would switch to all electric.

some people will still drive petrol tho, classic enthuseasts being one example.

there does seem to be a common theme on threads such as these for people to focus on the limitations of current technology as an attempt to discredit the very concept of electric vehicles, rather than look at the advances which have been made in the last few decades, the ford modelT does not stack up well in comparison to a modern diesel focus, however that's where most manufacturers ar at the moment, maybe Tesla can be compared to Rolls Royce or caddilac of the era, but a 1913 Silver Ghost , impressive as it is, stacks up poorly to a 2013 Ghost

BloodBath · 01-07-2013 2:26pm

Their are massive untapped Lithium supplies in Afghanistan and Bolivia estimated to be higher than the rest of current production and known reserves combined. Combined with future improvements to battery tech supply shouldn't be a problem.

Your living in fairyland.

Not one of them is capable and viable to power and electric vehicle. There simply experimental technologies with absolutely no certainty of being proven. You may as well be saying all cars will soon be powered by nuclear fusion.. saying so doesn't make it so.

It's called science and there is massive money to be made in batteries with many new technologies being held back by the lack of good battery tech. There are hundreds of scientific teams working on it and many have had breakthroughs on current tech.

Another break through.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/04/king-20130420.html

Their paper

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n4/full/ncomms2747.html

No the range isn't measured at 55mph, your wrong. The range is reduced by roughly 50% at these speeds.

Where did you get that info. Here are how the calculations are based. You can even play around with the settings to see how they affect the range. The multiple good reviews back up these ranges.

http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric#range

I'd have my doubts about the electronics and build quality of an American upstart car company but that is also a risk with any car. If the likes of BMW and Mercedes start making ev's that shouldn't be an issue. We should be thankful to Tesla and the early adopters for pushing this tech forward. The early infrastructure is being placed so by the time it goes mainstream there will be plenty of options for charging.

So lets say im going down the motorway at 80 miles an hour in an EV with my AC on fuel blast, how far do you reckon the Leaf will go? The official range is 117km, would it even go 40km at them speeds and with the AC? Oh and then theres the small matter of going home again

The leaf is intended to be a cheap city car and is perfectly fine in that role. Your reasoning on what a car is and what purposes it serves is not the same as everybodys. For someone who lives in a big city (the majority of the worlds population) then it's a perfectly viable car. Most middle class families in the developed world have at least 2 cars anyway. There's no reason why at least 1 shouldn't be an ev.

And the charging points are never blocked by other vehicles?

The number of spaces is proportionate to the number of ev's. With improvements in battery tech it will become a redundant issue anyway.

Do you drive an EV?

Your bias is outstanding

No I don't but I am open to the technology and know that current tech is at a level where ev's should be adopted more widely than they are. The choice of cars is also limiting it's growth. The leaf and Tesla aren't going to be suitable for everyone. The model x will open up more markets. A lot of car companies are slow to transition with a well built up fossil engine industry already in place. The ones that are too slow will be left in the dust.

6. By point about lithium being dangerous is that all it takes is for one cell to be pierced to start a chain reaction, imo this is much more likely to occur in a EV, like the tesla which is packed with 450 kg of lithium, than in a normal car during a crash, as petrol requires ignition to become flammable. Two cars colliding will do serious structural damage and piercing would be more like to occur then ignition! Just something to note that EVs aren't without there own hazards.

450kg of lithium? Really? You assume the entire battery weight is made up from lithium? The lightest metal on the periodic table which each battery only contains a small amount of. Your issues with the cars do not exist. They are safer than petrol cars in accidents.

Superchargers wreck the batteries as stated earlier

No they don't The battery damage associated with rapid charging is from the heat generated in the batteries. The model S has an active battery cooling system that keeps the battery temp's down to extend battery life.

Heres a video showing what can happen to lithium batteries, note this is just a laptop with a few hundred grams of lithium, imaging a car with 450 kg of the stuff!

Here's what can happen with petrol. This makes about as much sense in relation to that video and as I've pointed out already there is nowhere near 450kg's of lithium in the batteries and those kinds of reactions cannot happen in a road accident. If you have better proof then please provide it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYp3O9fyfSE

MonkieSocks · 01-07-2013 3:10pm

SAO PAULO,(UPI) -- Latin America is poised for a lithium boom as mining companies seek deposits of the mineral for urgent and large-scale development.
Lithium-ion batteries are critical to computers and smartphones and are seen as the ultimate solution in the auto industry's quest for a clean, environmentally friendly battery-powered car.

More than 70 percent of the world's salt lake lithium deposits are in South America and investors are eyeing untapped or undeveloped lithium sources outside Chile, the current major producer, in Argentina, Mexico and Bolivia.

U.S. Geological Survey data indicate Bolivia contains almost half of the world's lithium reserves, which remain untapped.

But Mexico is seen as the next hotspot because of its easier investment climate, close ties with the United States and free trade environment.

China and other international investors see Mexico as a favored destination for low-cost lithium extraction and manufacture of lithium-based products for distribution across the Americas and the Pacific.

Lithium markets in Latin America are set to explode as demand rises for new technologies from Apple iPads to electric cars, Green Technology Solutions mining subsidiary GTSO Resources said.

GTSO Resources said it would focus on Chile.

Deposits of lithium are found throughout the Andes Mountains and both Chile and Argentina recover lithium from brine pools.

Lithium is poised to rise in value dramatically as demand grows globally. China, a major producer of batteries, is tapping markets to find and secure more lithium resources for itself.

Despite Bolivia's large lithium reserves, the country's mercurial politics have put off investors.

GTSO said lithium mining in Chile could pay off handsomely if lithium prices continue to rise as expected.

"We're moving aggressively to increase shareholder value by acquiring new projects and sourcing joint venture partners to expand the scope and diversify the risk of our exploration efforts in Chile," GTSO Chief Executive Officer Paul Watson said.
Traditional mining isn't the only path to potential profits with Chilean lithium, it said. GTSO is in talks with CCI Capital SpA for assistance to develop and implement urban mining deals in Chile.

It said the country's mining infrastructure and growing e-waste stream make it an ideal environment for sustainable minerals investment.

New research has shown that sustainable urban mining practices could help dramatically reduce the world's carbon emissions.

By recycling a ton of steel, carbon emissions can be reduced by 2.1 tons. A ton of recycled aluminum eliminates 7.9 tons of emissions and a ton of recycled computers reduces emissions by four tons.

As concern over pollution and climate change grows around the world, demand for recycled materials is rising, the research indicates.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Resources/2012/08/09/Latin-America-poised-for-a-lithium-boom/UPI-68411344553106/#ixzz2XnpCIh8T

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