The Electric Car

Jumboman

Does anyone believe their is a consipiracy to stop the electric car becoming a viable alternative to the petrol car ?

Torakx

It certainly wouldn't suprise me.
I'm not sure about power alternatives.
But looking at Teslas work, with his electric car and plans for power distribution, I think had he been fully supported, things might be very different now...but still under the same tyrants of course

With more people working on "over unity" engines etc, the idea is becoming more popular to steer away from petrol.
Even if they dont reach over unity, they have managed to make some very resourceful alternatives.

I am sure that when something awesome is released it wont be from some random guy working in his shed having control of it.
And for that reason, I'm not sure its a straight cut conspiracy.
I think big corps and military will be using that before the masses get a hold of it.
And when petrol is done, then they might be ready to roll out the next stage of sucking us dry.

At the moment I think the excuse given, is that its not a viable option to use our power grid to power our cars as well.
I think the technology is probably already there to make it a viable option.But the profit margins might not be good enough compared to selling bombs and petrol which seem to go hand in hand.

BloodBath

Lot's of advances have been held up for various reasons. We should be running Thorium powered Nuclear plants with at least 50% electric car penetration by now. They are perfect for cities but won't replace heavy fossil vehicles or long range vehicles anytime soon.

One good Thorium plant would provide Dublin with most if not all of it's energy needs including electric car charges. It would be cheaper greener power for the whole country. The network could be backed up with wind/water energy for the rest of the country.

Ireland is far too backward to lead the way in anything like that though. Thorium is being looked into by other countries though and electric cars finally seem to be gaining some respect despite efforts to hold them back.

I don't think they were very viable until Lithium batteries were affordable. Carbon rod batteries should make even long range and heavy battery vehicles possible.

NIMAN

BloodBath

I remember watching that.

Not gonna watch it again but was there something in it about oil companies buying out electric car patents so they couldn't be used?

Cookie_Monster

the in-efficiency inherent to batteries and charging time is killing the electric car, not some conspiracy.
when batteries or capacitors become cheaper and viable then it'll take off, not until then though

BloodBath

They are viable and have been for years. Charging your car at home is not hard and the energy costs work out a lot cheaper than petrol or diesel. They are starting to role out charge points in cities and towns even in Ireland.

There are grants to reduce the cost of buying the car, your road tax will be the cheapest, and you get far cheaper fuel especially to those in cheap nuclear energy countries like france and the uk. It works out 5-10 times cheaper per miles than diesel or petrol. You will also not need to buy motor oil and you won't have to get the car serviced as often or parts replaced as often.

It works out cheaper than a conventional car in the long run. The range of the cars is more than enough as well for the average driver. The range on the model s is up to 260 miles. The average driver does 20 miles in a day.

The more popular it becomes the more charge points will appear everywhere so even the long occasional drive can be done.

They also have crazy fast acceleration rivaling sports cars. The 416bhp Tesla model S can do 0 - 60mph in 4.0 seconds with a top speed of 136mph. Whats not to like?

That car isn't cheap but it is a premium model.

Cookie_Monster

Time to charge car 6-10 hours
Time to fill with petrol 2 mins

Range of elec maybe 100-150km
Range of petrol car 600km+

charge required every day, if not more often. Petrol once a week or less.

Not practical at all...

shedweller

I remember when i was in NZ this news article came up once...once...that featured this lad that modified his car to include water, or more specifically, steam as part of the combustion process. The aim was more mpg and although i don't remember the exact increase, it was quite a bit. The news channel even had a short interview with him and showed us the engine with more than a bit extra pipework going on!

My point is that we heard of this lad and his invention once and once only. Rest assured that other similar ideas are shelved for future reference. Be they batteries etc.

BloodBath

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Time to charge car 6-10 hours
Time to fill with petrol 2 mins

Range of elec maybe 100-150km
Range of petrol car 600km+

charge required every day, if not more often. Petrol once a week or less.

Not practical at all...

That's for a full charge. You don't have to do a full charge if you only need to top up for the trip home.

There are supercharger stations that can do full charges in 45 minutes as well. They are trying to reduce this to 25 minutes.

These charges are also completely free, provided in the cost of the car, and run by Tesla themselves.

You can charge the car at home or in parking spaces in towns/cities.

You charge your phone and other appliances at night when they need charging. How is it a problem?

The max ranges are closer to 250 miles at 55mph which is nearly 90kmh. That range at our motorway limit of 120kph will of course be reduced but it will still be more than enough for most people. Their batteries and efficiency ranges are improving all the time. They have 300 mile range ones.


The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

shedweller

BloodBath wrote: »

The advantages far outweigh the disadvantages.

For us, that is. Not the lads who stand to lose billions in oil revenue etc.

thebman

Torakx wrote: »

It certainly wouldn't suprise me.
I'm not sure about power alternatives.
But looking at Teslas work, with his electric car and plans for power distribution, I think had he been fully supported, things might be very different now...but still under the same tyrants of course

Tesla got pretty good support, a half billion loan from the US Department of Energy.

I don't think there is a conspiracy theory. I think things are just slow to change as most people are happy with existing cars so there is no major driver for change.

If oil goes through the roof, people will expect a magical, overnight alternative though so it is important to develop one but you can't pour resources into it as it isn't justified at the moment.

TheBikeGuy

I did my thesis on a lot of this subject area and i have no hesitation in saying the electric car, while being powered by lithium batteries has absolutely no chance of replacing fuel powered vehicles.


I'll some up the major points quickly

1. Lithium is an extremely rare metal, there isn't enough on this planet to power even a minority of the amount of vehicles used worldwide. 20,000 Tonnes of lithium are refined every year, compare that to 1.4 million tonnes of Nickel.

2. Most of worldwide lithium production is already required for the electronics industry. This makes lithium extremely expensive. A huge increase in demand with no additional supply available is going to push prices through the roof. Electric cars are already struggling to produce cheap batteries, if they became mainstream (their is 1 billion vehicles worldwide) the price could easily be $50,000 - $100,000 per car just on the lithium batteries

3. Lithium degrades over time, meaning the battery can hold less charge, and range decreases over time

4. Charging times are ridiculous for an average individual, fast charging isn't a solution because it severely damages the batteries with regular use

5. Lithium has a low energy to weight ratio, making large range capabilities impossible to achieve in a passenger vehicle.

6. Lithium batteries are explosive when a cell is punctured, I wouldn't be too comfortable driving one


http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf


Electric vehicles will never be a success with these batteries, no conspiracy about it.

There are alternatives out their which are viable, although not without some problems, so theirs no danger that the car will become a piece of history once oil prices sky rocket

goz83

Watched that video. I didn't realise that had happened. Effin rednecks.

fryup

in this day & age with all the technology that we have surely there must be someone out there with a solution/invention for the car industry

goz83

fryup wrote: »

in this day & age with all the technology that we have surely there must be someone out there with a solution/invention for the car industry

With all the solutions, the powers that be (oil tycoons etc) have the money and power to kill any solution in the name of greed. I mean seriously!! Who the fcuk needs a billion quid in their current sccount?

Jumboman

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

1. Lithium is an extremely rare metal,

If Lithium is extremely rare how come we are all using it in our phones and laptops ?

Cookie_Monster

Jumboman wrote: »

If Lithium is extremely rare how come we are all using it in our phones and laptops ?

he even addressed the point in his post, have a read
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium

Silver and gold are also rare but are used in electronics...

NIMAN

fryup wrote: »

in this day & age with all the technology that we have surely there must be someone out there with a solution/invention for the car industry

Maybe someone has, and this is what became of them too

BloodBath

1. Lithium is an extremely rare metal, there isn't enough on this planet to power even a minority of the amount of vehicles used worldwide. 20,000 Tonnes of lithium are refined every year, compare that to 1.4 million tonnes of Nickel.

2. Most of worldwide lithium production is already required for the electronics industry. This makes lithium extremely expensive. A huge increase in demand with no additional supply available is going to push prices through the roof. Electric cars are already struggling to produce cheap batteries, if they became mainstream (their is 1 billion vehicles worldwide) the price could easily be $50,000 - $100,000 per car just on the lithium batteries

You have a point. There are several replacements for Lithium batteries in the pipeline though. At the moment tesla markets the cars to upper/middle class people as that is all that could afford the cars but they rival their competition in that price bracket. Their clearly isn't enough Lithium to go around to replace all cars but that won't be a problem in the near future.

3. Lithium degrades over time, meaning the battery can hold less charge, and range decreases over time

Car engines degrade over time too, become less fuel efficient and need to be serviced more often. Electric cars don't need to be serviced practically ever.

4. Charging times are ridiculous for an average individual, fast charging isn't a solution because it severely damages the batteries with regular use

6 hour empty to full charge times aren't ridiculous. What else are you doing when you come home in the evening? The super charge stations are only meant for long journeys. The majority of people won't even come close to using the range of the cars in the majority of their journeys. Wide scale adoption would lead to more and more charge points making it even less of an issue. You could charge while in work.

5. Lithium has a low energy to weight ratio, making large range capabilities impossible to achieve in a passenger vehicle.

Yet they have 300 mile range models already. You are wrong.

6. Lithium batteries are explosive when a cell is punctured, I wouldn't be too comfortable driving one

No they aren't. They have protections in place to stop anything like that happening. You would have to remove this protection and massively overcharge the battery for that to happen. Petrol could be regarded as explosive yet you don't mind driving a car with gallons of the stuff in it. Petrol or oil ignitions in cars actually lead to road deaths every year. Show me a single road death relating to lithium explosions or fires.

The cars have been designed to be 5 star crash safety rated. They have far more safety features than the majority of cars on the road.


How much research did you actually do for this Thesis?

Penn

BloodBath wrote: »

How much research did you actually do for this Thesis?

Tone it down, Bloodbath. Don't make personal comments.

TheBikeGuy

BloodBath wrote: »

You have a point. There are several replacements for Lithium batteries in the pipeline though. At the moment tesla markets the cars to upper/middle class people as that is all that could afford the cars but they rival their competition in that price bracket. Their clearly isn't enough Lithium to go around to replace all cars but that won't be a problem in the near future.



Car engines degrade over time too, become less fuel efficient and need to be serviced more often. Electric cars don't need to be serviced practically ever.




6 hour empty to full charge times aren't ridiculous. What else are you doing when you come home in the evening? The super charge stations are only meant for long journeys. The majority of people won't even come close to using the range of the cars in the majority of their journeys. Wide scale adoption would lead to more and more charge points making it even less of an issue. You could charge while in work.




Yet they have 300 mile range models already. You are wrong.



No they aren't. They have protections in place to stop anything like that happening. You would have to remove this protection and massively overcharge the battery for that to happen. Petrol could be regarded as explosive yet you don't mind driving a car with gallons of the stuff in it. Petrol or oil ignitions in cars actually lead to road deaths every year. Show me a single road death relating to lithium explosions or fires.

The cars have been designed to be 5 star crash safety rated. They have far more safety features than the majority of cars on the road.


How much research did you actually do for this Thesis?

Give examples of replacement batteries that are viable and capable of powering a vehicle?

Car engines degrade slightly over time, not enough to significantly effect the driving range where it becomes impractical, the same cannot be said for electric cars

Have you ever heard of anyone complaining about the range of their engine vehicle because of degradation? :rolleyes:

Hahah if you believe this 300 mile range claim, in reality its 300 miles range at exceptionally low speeds (something like 20mph), look how the range decreases as speed increases in the Tesla

http://www.motorauthority.com/image/100179459_tesla-roadster-range-versus-speed


Furthermore to get this '300 mile' range Tesla cram in as much batteries as possible, taking the weight of the batteries up to 450kg, nearly half a tonne per car!! Theres only 20,000 Tonnes of Lithium produced each year :pac: Not to mention it makes the car cost nearly $100,000


And thats in the Tesla, think of the lower spec EVs, i.e the Leaf, the range can be halved with high speed driving!!

Also look at the effects turning on the AC does :pac:

https://www.google.ie/search?q=tesla+range+vs+speed&rlz=1C1TEUA_enIE499IE499&um=1&ie=UTF-8&hl=en&tbm=isch&source=og&sa=N&tab=wi&ei=N6nNUf2dOoep7AbF_4BA&biw=1366&bih=643&sei=OqnNUZ62M4-I7Aa01IGwBA#facrc=_&imgdii=_&imgrc=PaAK-hVVAtIh3M%3A%3B4OVHLFGPkMRngM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.solarjourneyusa.com%252FPictures%252FACloadeffect.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fwww.solarjourneyusa.com%252FEVdistanceAnalysis5.php%3B555%3B479


Charging times are ridiculous. 6 hours is ridiculous. 1 hour would be ridiculous. People don't want to be restricted with their cars.

Electric cars are laughable with current technology. I'm a big proponent of EVs, but they have a hell of a long way to go.

I've been around electric vehicle conversions and experienced the range issues, as well as the AC issues first hand, I know what I'm talking about


P.S My friend was telling me a story of when he was driving his EV against a strong wind and he said the range dropped off massively!!!

Tzar Chasm

engine degradation in fossil fuel powered vehicles is a real and measurable phenomonen.

without regular servicing and parts replacement a petrol engine will experience serious issues, a major issue is piston ring wear, electric cars don't require oil changes, they can't burn out a clutch or bend a conrod, you cant overheat one and blow the head, gasket failure can be critical in some cases, but more often than not the car will still drive, but with a loss of power.

EV's are a reasonable solution to the vast majority of peoples personal transport needs, if I were in a position to buy a new car I'd get an EV for my daily commuting requirements, charge it overnight, charge it during the day in college, 150Km of range is far more than most reasonable people require for their daily driver, I would also have an E39 530D for any long trips I might make.

BloodBath

Give examples of replacement batteries that are viable and capable of powering a vehicle?

There are many groups of scientists working on more efficient mass producible alternatives to Lithium at the moment. Most of the breakthroughs are still using Lithium in the batteries but would allow for 10 times the current electrical storage capacity. This means they could massively reduce the battery size/weight while still doubling or tripling it's power storage capacity. The combined weight reduction and extra capacity would increase ranges dramatically beyond fossil fuel cars.

http://www.popularmechanics.com/cars/news/fuel-economy/8-potential-ev-and-hybrid-battery-breakthroughs#slide-1

Car engines degrade slightly over time, not enough to significantly effect the driving range where it becomes impractical, the same cannot be said for electric cars

Have you ever heard of anyone complaining about the range of their engine vehicle because of degradation?

As tzar has already pointed out fossil engine cars do suffer from degradation even more so than electrical vehicles. Yes I have heard about people complain about degradation. Every time you need to get an engine part replaced or fixed/cleaned is because of degradation. If you've ever owned a newish car and had it long enough you would notice it's fuel efficiency being a lot worse over time. Regular servicing helps reduce this but that again costs money.

Hahah if you believe this 300 mile range claim, in reality its 300 miles range at exceptionally low speeds (something like 20mph), look how the range decreases as speed increases in the Tesla

http://www.motorauthority.com/image/...e-versus-speed


Furthermore to get this '300 mile' range Tesla cram in as much batteries as possible, taking the weight of the batteries up to 450kg, nearly half a tonne per car!! Theres only 20,000 Tonnes of Lithium produced each year Not to mention it makes the car cost nearly $100,000


And thats in the Tesla, think of the lower spec EVs, i.e the Leaf, the range can be halved with high speed driving!!

Also look at the effects turning on the AC does

https://www.google.ie/search?q=tesla...hp%3B555%3B479

Their ranges are calculated at 55mph. A 300 mile range battery even reduced by factors like higher speed, AC, high winds ect would still have more than enough range for the majority of road users. The battery tech is only going to improve until it exceeds petrol engines.

The entry level models are $50k. The ones around €100k rival their European counterparts mercedes/bmw in performance and features for cars they have at that price point. It's a sports car not a family wagon. I don't think you will find many cars than can do 0 - 60 in 3.9 seconds for less than that price.

Turning on the AC in a fossil fuel car also reduces it's range / burns more fuel as does high speed driving.

Charging times are ridiculous. 6 hours is ridiculous. 1 hour would be ridiculous. People don't want to be restricted with their cars.

6 hours from empty to full which can be done in the evenings or at a home. There are charge points all over the place even in Ireland. We have around 100 charge points. Considering a less than 1% market share of EV's this is pretty good. With a wider EV market share this would number into the thousands. They can be charged in 25 mins from empty to full at a super charger station ( The equivalent of a petrol station )

Electric cars are laughable with current technology. I'm a big proponent of EVs, but they have a hell of a long way to go.

You clearly aren't and no they don't. I'd expect to start seeing mainstream reasonably priced EV's within 5 years.

TheBikeGuy

Your living in fairyland.

Not one of them is capable and viable to power and electric vehicle. There simply experimental technologies with absolutely no certainty of being proven. You may as well be saying all cars will soon be powered by nuclear fusion.. saying so doesn't make it so.

Yes and what happens if fuel consumption decreases slightly in a fuel vehicle, you just add more fuel in. What happens in an electric vehicle if the range drops down massively? Your waiting 6 hours :pac:

The problem with AC in an electric car, you brush it off just because AC lowers fuel consumption in an engine vehicle, thats ridiculous, its a very real problem with significant lowers the range of an electric vehicle.

No the range isn't measured at 55mph, your wrong. The range is reduced by roughly 50% at these speeds.

So lets say im going down the motorway at 80 miles an hour in an EV with my AC on fuel blast, how far do you reckon the Leaf will go? The official range is 117km, would it even go 40km at them speeds and with the AC? Oh and then theres the small matter of going home again :pac:

And the charging points are never blocked by other vehicles? :rolleyes:
Superchargers wreck the batteries as stated earlier

Do you drive an EV?

Your bias is outstanding

Tzar Chasm

one of the most interesting new avenues being developed in battery technology is graphene capacitors, the technology is still in its infancy but the research is promising.

imagine making a monocoque chassis that was a battery and solar cell itself

fleet

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

I did my thesis on a lot of this subject area and i have no hesitation in saying the electric car, while being powered by lithium batteries has absolutely no chance of replacing fuel powered vehicles.


I'll some up the major points quickly

1. Lithium is an extremely rare metal, there isn't enough on this planet to power even a minority of the amount of vehicles used worldwide. 20,000 Tonnes of lithium are refined every year, compare that to 1.4 million tonnes of Nickel.

2. Most of worldwide lithium production is already required for the electronics industry. This makes lithium extremely expensive. A huge increase in demand with no additional supply available is going to push prices through the roof. Electric cars are already struggling to produce cheap batteries, if they became mainstream (their is 1 billion vehicles worldwide) the price could easily be $50,000 - $100,000 per car just on the lithium batteries

3. Lithium degrades over time, meaning the battery can hold less charge, and range decreases over time

4. Charging times are ridiculous for an average individual, fast charging isn't a solution because it severely damages the batteries with regular use

5. Lithium has a low energy to weight ratio, making large range capabilities impossible to achieve in a passenger vehicle.

6. Lithium batteries are explosive when a cell is punctured, I wouldn't be too comfortable driving one


http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf


Electric vehicles will never be a success with these batteries, no conspiracy about it.

There are alternatives out their which are viable, although not without some problems, so theirs no danger that the car will become a piece of history once oil prices sky rocket

Nonsense.

1. There is in excess of 2000 years supply based on current extraction.

2. The US, among others, has untapped (but known) reserves that they don't extract due to it being cheaper to import. Point being that given such huge untapped global reserves price cannot rise in line with demand.

3. Yes, lithium batteries degrade. So does every lead acid starter battery in every petrol car. We do what we've always done with them and recycle them to make new batteries.

4. Charge time will probably never beat petrol. But it doesn't have to. Most people don't commute more than a few tens of kilometres. That's no problem for batteries, just plug the car in overnight like you do your phone.

5. Eh... Tesla car? 300km?? Range will only get better too. Right now it's half what a large full petrol tank, that's already beyond what most people need. Rent a petrol car for those occasional long journies until range improves.

6. Ah hahahaha! You drive a petrol car? Damn things are highly tuned fuel air bombs! Don't go saying lithium is any more dangerous. I ride a petrol motobike, I know what 17L of petrol feels like with my crotch resting on it.


I'm not saying that electric cars will take over, or are better than competing technologies. Just that they are viable, and viable right now for the vast majority.

TheBikeGuy

fleet wrote: »

Nonsense.

1. There is in excess of 2000 years supply based on current extraction.

2. The US, among others, has untapped (but known) reserves that they don't extract due to it being cheaper to import. Point being that given such huge untapped global reserves price cannot rise in line with demand.

3. Yes, lithium batteries degrade. So does every lead acid starter battery in every petrol car. We do what we've always done with them and recycle them to make new batteries.

4. Charge time will probably never beat petrol. But it doesn't have to. Most people don't commute more than a few tens of kilometres. That's no problem for batteries, just plug the car in overnight like you do your phone.

5. Eh... Tesla car? 300km?? Range will only get better too. Right now it's half what a large full petrol tank, that's already beyond what most people need. Rent a petrol car for those occasional long journies until range improves.

6. Ah hahahaha! You drive a petrol car? Damn things are highly tuned fuel air bombs! Don't go saying lithium is any more dangerous. I ride a petrol motobike, I know what 17L of petrol feels like with my crotch resting on it.


I'm not saying that electric cars will take over, or are better than competing technologies. Just that they are viable, and viable right now for the vast majority.

Nothing nonsense about it i'm afraid,

1. You've overestimated world reserves by roughly 70%. furthermore you've based your theory on current extraction which would be unable to provide enough to manufacture a significant number of vehicles.

2. The US does not have large reserves of lithium, they have about 3% of worldwide lithium reserves

3. Yes but a lead acid battery does not power a car, if a lead acid degrades by 50% it will still start a car and no range or performance issues will result. If a lithium battery degrades by 50% in an electric car the range will be halved.

4. Yes they are no problem for urban commuters within reasonable distances, but there not robust enough imo for the average user, hence while there not popular. People will not want to rent a car anytime they want to go for a long drive with the kids or visit relatives down the country.

5. Yes the Tesla is an amazing car, but its beyond the average consumer and its stated range is a myth, its more like 150 - 200 miles. Still very acceptable, but once again, its not a solution for the average driver

6. By point about lithium being dangerous is that all it takes is for one cell to be pierced to start a chain reaction, imo this is much more likely to occur in a EV, like the tesla which is packed with 450 kg of lithium, than in a normal car during a crash, as petrol requires ignition to become flammable. Two cars colliding will do serious structural damage and piercing would be more like to occur then ignition! Just something to note that EVs aren't without there own hazards.

Believe me or not I am a proponent of EV tech, but I don't think mollycoddling the technology will get us anywhere. We need to be demanding as consumers and not accept trade downs in performance or convenience.

Heres a video showing what can happen to lithium batteries, note this is just a laptop with a few hundred grams of lithium, imaging a car with 450 kg of the stuff!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pizFsY0yjss

Tzar Chasm

i don't see where you get the idea that the average driver requires more than 150 km for a daily driver, especially here in ireland. 80% of the populations transport needs could easily be accommodated with EV's

in most normal situations people drive to a destination and have some time span before departure, this can range from 8 hours for a work commute to 30- 45 minutes for just nipping down to the shops, so in most normal situations there is ample time to recharge the car.

the other 20% will be better suited to petrol/diesel engines, but as I said earlier I would expect to see most familys who currently run 2 or more cars to switch one of them to electric initially, then as the technology improves more and more people would switch to all electric.

some people will still drive petrol tho, classic enthuseasts being one example.

there does seem to be a common theme on threads such as these for people to focus on the limitations of current technology as an attempt to discredit the very concept of electric vehicles, rather than look at the advances which have been made in the last few decades, the ford modelT does not stack up well in comparison to a modern diesel focus, however that's where most manufacturers ar at the moment, maybe Tesla can be compared to Rolls Royce or caddilac of the era, but a 1913 Silver Ghost , impressive as it is, stacks up poorly to a 2013 Ghost

BloodBath

Their are massive untapped Lithium supplies in Afghanistan and Bolivia estimated to be higher than the rest of current production and known reserves combined. Combined with future improvements to battery tech supply shouldn't be a problem.

Your living in fairyland.

Not one of them is capable and viable to power and electric vehicle. There simply experimental technologies with absolutely no certainty of being proven. You may as well be saying all cars will soon be powered by nuclear fusion.. saying so doesn't make it so.

It's called science and there is massive money to be made in batteries with many new technologies being held back by the lack of good battery tech. There are hundreds of scientific teams working on it and many have had breakthroughs on current tech.

Another break through.

http://www.greencarcongress.com/2013/04/king-20130420.html

Their paper

http://www.nature.com/ncomms/journal/v4/n4/full/ncomms2747.html

No the range isn't measured at 55mph, your wrong. The range is reduced by roughly 50% at these speeds.

Where did you get that info. Here are how the calculations are based. You can even play around with the settings to see how they affect the range. The multiple good reviews back up these ranges.

http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric#range

I'd have my doubts about the electronics and build quality of an American upstart car company but that is also a risk with any car. If the likes of BMW and Mercedes start making ev's that shouldn't be an issue. We should be thankful to Tesla and the early adopters for pushing this tech forward. The early infrastructure is being placed so by the time it goes mainstream there will be plenty of options for charging.

So lets say im going down the motorway at 80 miles an hour in an EV with my AC on fuel blast, how far do you reckon the Leaf will go? The official range is 117km, would it even go 40km at them speeds and with the AC? Oh and then theres the small matter of going home again

The leaf is intended to be a cheap city car and is perfectly fine in that role. Your reasoning on what a car is and what purposes it serves is not the same as everybodys. For someone who lives in a big city (the majority of the worlds population) then it's a perfectly viable car. Most middle class families in the developed world have at least 2 cars anyway. There's no reason why at least 1 shouldn't be an ev.

And the charging points are never blocked by other vehicles?

The number of spaces is proportionate to the number of ev's. With improvements in battery tech it will become a redundant issue anyway.

Do you drive an EV?

Your bias is outstanding

No I don't but I am open to the technology and know that current tech is at a level where ev's should be adopted more widely than they are. The choice of cars is also limiting it's growth. The leaf and Tesla aren't going to be suitable for everyone. The model x will open up more markets. A lot of car companies are slow to transition with a well built up fossil engine industry already in place. The ones that are too slow will be left in the dust.

6. By point about lithium being dangerous is that all it takes is for one cell to be pierced to start a chain reaction, imo this is much more likely to occur in a EV, like the tesla which is packed with 450 kg of lithium, than in a normal car during a crash, as petrol requires ignition to become flammable. Two cars colliding will do serious structural damage and piercing would be more like to occur then ignition! Just something to note that EVs aren't without there own hazards.

450kg of lithium? Really? You assume the entire battery weight is made up from lithium? The lightest metal on the periodic table which each battery only contains a small amount of. Your issues with the cars do not exist. They are safer than petrol cars in accidents.

Superchargers wreck the batteries as stated earlier

No they don't The battery damage associated with rapid charging is from the heat generated in the batteries. The model S has an active battery cooling system that keeps the battery temp's down to extend battery life.

Heres a video showing what can happen to lithium batteries, note this is just a laptop with a few hundred grams of lithium, imaging a car with 450 kg of the stuff!

Here's what can happen with petrol. This makes about as much sense in relation to that video and as I've pointed out already there is nowhere near 450kg's of lithium in the batteries and those kinds of reactions cannot happen in a road accident. If you have better proof then please provide it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RYp3O9fyfSE

MonkieSocks

SAO PAULO,(UPI) -- Latin America is poised for a lithium boom as mining companies seek deposits of the mineral for urgent and large-scale development.
Lithium-ion batteries are critical to computers and smartphones and are seen as the ultimate solution in the auto industry's quest for a clean, environmentally friendly battery-powered car.


More than 70 percent of the world's salt lake lithium deposits are in South America and investors are eyeing untapped or undeveloped lithium sources outside Chile, the current major producer, in Argentina, Mexico and Bolivia.


U.S. Geological Survey data indicate Bolivia contains almost half of the world's lithium reserves, which remain untapped.


But Mexico is seen as the next hotspot because of its easier investment climate, close ties with the United States and free trade environment.


China and other international investors see Mexico as a favored destination for low-cost lithium extraction and manufacture of lithium-based products for distribution across the Americas and the Pacific.


Lithium markets in Latin America are set to explode as demand rises for new technologies from Apple iPads to electric cars, Green Technology Solutions mining subsidiary GTSO Resources said.


GTSO Resources said it would focus on Chile.


Deposits of lithium are found throughout the Andes Mountains and both Chile and Argentina recover lithium from brine pools.


Lithium is poised to rise in value dramatically as demand grows globally. China, a major producer of batteries, is tapping markets to find and secure more lithium resources for itself.


Despite Bolivia's large lithium reserves, the country's mercurial politics have put off investors.


GTSO said lithium mining in Chile could pay off handsomely if lithium prices continue to rise as expected.


"We're moving aggressively to increase shareholder value by acquiring new projects and sourcing joint venture partners to expand the scope and diversify the risk of our exploration efforts in Chile," GTSO Chief Executive Officer Paul Watson said.
Traditional mining isn't the only path to potential profits with Chilean lithium, it said. GTSO is in talks with CCI Capital SpA for assistance to develop and implement urban mining deals in Chile.


It said the country's mining infrastructure and growing e-waste stream make it an ideal environment for sustainable minerals investment.


New research has shown that sustainable urban mining practices could help dramatically reduce the world's carbon emissions.


By recycling a ton of steel, carbon emissions can be reduced by 2.1 tons. A ton of recycled aluminum eliminates 7.9 tons of emissions and a ton of recycled computers reduces emissions by four tons.



As concern over pollution and climate change grows around the world, demand for recycled materials is rising, the research indicates.

Read more: http://www.upi.com/Business_News/Energy-Resources/2012/08/09/Latin-America-poised-for-a-lithium-boom/UPI-68411344553106/#ixzz2XnpCIh8T

rubadub

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

1. Lithium is an extremely rare metal,

Some TV program about the forming of continents was on the other day saying how Boliva have held off letting corporations come in to mine, fearing they will take advantage. Presenter was saying how they could be the new saudi arabia.

I am surprised electric bicycles have not taken off more for rush hour commuters.

Cookie_Monster

rubadub wrote: »

I am surprised electric bicycles have not taken off more for rush hour commuters.

Well people who already cycle will cycle proper bikes and people who don't will continue to hold the negative image that the state and meadia do their best to portray. (ie cycling is slow, wet and dangerous)

TheBikeGuy

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

I did my thesis on a lot of this subject area and i have no hesitation in saying the electric car, while being powered by lithium batteries has absolutely no chance of replacing fuel powered vehicles.

You think that battery cars have no chance of replacing fuel powered cars ?

Would you like to bet on that ? say 100,000 Euro's that within the next 10 years that battery cars will not sell as well or possibly over take the sale of ICE cars ? 100,000 Euro's ?

Electric bicycles have overtaken car sales in the E.U which is substantial because we have a much larger population than the U.S and Canada combined.

This is one example of battery vehicles coming of age. Not comparable to cars ? maybe not but it shows that there are interests in alternative modes of transport.

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

1. Lithium is an extremely rare metal, there isn't enough on this planet to power even a minority of the amount of vehicles used worldwide. 20,000 Tonnes of lithium are refined every year, compare that to 1.4 million tonnes of Nickel.

You're joking, right ? there are vast reserves of lithium that haven't even begun to make full production. Refined amount does in no way reflect the available reserves.

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

2. Most of worldwide lithium production is already required for the electronics industry. This makes lithium extremely expensive. A huge increase in demand with no additional supply available is going to push prices through the roof. Electric cars are already struggling to produce cheap batteries, if they became mainstream (their is 1 billion vehicles worldwide) the price could easily be $50,000 - $100,000 per car just on the lithium batteries

Maybe it is but the major auto makers are starting to buy lithium mines and Toyota has already acquired one, and I guarantee Toyota, the worlds largest car maker wouldn't do it if they didn't believe Lithium would power cars for the future.

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

3. Lithium degrades over time, meaning the battery can hold less charge, and range decreases over time

Yes , but it'f far more complicated than that.

Sacrifices have to be made to for safety reasons.

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

4. Charging times are ridiculous for an average individual, fast charging isn't a solution because it severely damages the batteries with regular use

Some batteries can charge in 5 mins to 80% but again safety is the primary focus, and the facelift Nissan Leaf can charge from a home 32 amp supply in 3 hours form 0%, so for most people this will be 2-3 hours charging. Most cars sit far longer when not in use. So I don't see the problem plugging in ? Maybe people are too lazy ?

fast charging a Leaf can take 30 mins to 80% from 0, so most fast charging will be 5-20 mins depending on what you need to get home, the Renault Zoe can fast charge in the same time but it makes better use of all the public chargers, the non fast chargers will charge Zoe in 1 hour from all ESB public chargers, so plenty of time for a bit of lunch as again it will take less than an hour to bring to 100%. Zoe has a built in 44 kw charger only needing 3 phase power.

Your home electricity supply can not charge Zoe that fast so that's a limitation of infrastructure and not the car. A note to new home builders to get a 3 phase supply.

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

5. Lithium has a low energy to weight ratio, making large range capabilities impossible to achieve in a passenger vehicle.

Is that right ? so what about the Tesla model S with it's 300-350 miles range ?

Lithium air is the next step and has theoretical densities of gasoline, however most would except 3 times the range of a Leaf. i.e 240 miles.

The greatest thing needed for electric cars is faster charging and longer lasting batteries. If you can charge to 80%in 5 mins or less why do you need a very big heavy expensive battery if most of your driving is 80 miles a day or less ?

A Boards.ie member (natural blue) soes significant weekly mileage by driving his Leaf to the City West Luas and the car is charged for his return trip giving potential real life range of 140 miles, and that's not using fast charging which is not recommended for the Leaf daily.

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

6. Lithium batteries are explosive when a cell is punctured, I wouldn't be too comfortable driving one

nails have been shot into the Leaf's battery and pretty much most batteries of automotive quality, and guess what ? yes nothing happened, the Leaf, Zoe Tesla have all undergone the same tests as any other car, so that is mis informing the public as to their safety.


http://www.evworld.com/library/lithium_shortage.pdf

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

Electric vehicles will never be a success with these batteries, no conspiracy about it.

That link is dead ? so that's gospel then is it ? I guess he can tell the future ?

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

There are alternatives out their which are viable, although not without some problems, so theirs no danger that the car will become a piece of history once oil prices sky rocket

Let me guess , hydrogen ?

Hydrogen is probably less likely than batteries to be successful because of the expensive of the materials to make fuel cells, and the huge amount of energy needed to make hydrogen, it can be done but we need lots of Nuclear power for this kind of economy. But the energy is much more efficiently put into charging batteries.

Charging ev's can make current power generation much more efficient by charging at night, because the power stations have to be kept burning to be ready for demand wasting huge amounts of energy.

E.V's can also store some of the excess wind energy at night when they have to be turned off sometimes because the fossil fuel stations have to be kept burning because you can't just turn off a power station and expect it to be fully operational at the flick of a switch.

I'm truly shocked you did a thesis on this subject! :eek:

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

the in-efficiency inherent to batteries and charging time is killing the electric car, not some conspiracy.
when batteries or capacitors become cheaper and viable then it'll take off, not until then though

E.V's are more efficient than ice cars even counting charging losses.

They can make use of the energy wasted by power stations that have to be kept burning fuel to be ready for instant demand, as a result wind energy has to be taken from the grid and ev's can use some of that energy.

But I agree with you on the expense part, only time will cure that.

Charge time is part of the issue, most cars sit at home doing nothing in time for 2 charges or more.

The facelift leaf can charge in 3 hours from a home 32 amp supply, or less considering you'll never arrive home at 0%.

The first gen leaf took 6 hours and less.

The renault Zoe can charge in 1 hour from a 3 phase supply so we're already at the point where your house supply is the limitation, and it didn't take 10 years to get that far did it ?

Fast charging takes 30 mins from 0% so most fast charging will be 5-20 mins depending on what you need to get home.

Tesla's super chargers can replace 300 miles in 1 hour.

Zoe can charge in less than 1 hour from every ESB public non fast charger, plenty of time for lunch.

Electric cars are good enough for the majority of people, however it will take time to adapt, when people know friends, relatives etc that have them and know they work for them then others will buy them.

They won't work for some, of course.

Cookie_Monster

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Time to charge car 6-10 hours
Time to fill with petrol 2 mins

Are you having a laugh or just talking for the sake of running e.v's down and misinforming people ?

The Leaf facelift model can charge in 3 hours, 3 for the first gen and that's from 0%, so your car never sits at home for more than 3 hours ?

The zoe is limited by house wiring, so house supply is the limiting factor now and not the car, it will charge in under an hour, or 30 mins form a fast charger.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

Range of elec maybe 100-150km
Range of petrol car 600km+

This is true, but a larg part of the population wouldn't use more than this a day, naturalblue who is on boards, covers significant weekly mileage by using the City West charger with the potential to cover 140 miles a day and that's not even using a fast charger. why would he need 600 kms range ? that would nearly be his weekly total mileage.

Cookie_Monster wrote: »

charge required every day, if not more often. Petrol once a week or less.

Not practical at all...

Not practical at all to plug in at home ?

Petrol once a week or less ? it's hardly too much effort to plug in a cable is it ? too complicated perhaps ?

Penn

Penn wrote: »

Tone it down, Bloodbath. Don't make personal comments.

But he's absolutely correct!!

Just because he did his thesis doesn't mean he's right ?

Clearly he hasn't done his research, it's a bit like journalism today.

the_syco

NIMAN wrote: »

THE UPDATED DOCUMENTARY;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4_7c9kPncnk

Don't worry about the heading being in some foreign language; it's narrated in english.

TheBikeGuy

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

P.S My friend was telling me a story of when he was driving his EV against a strong wind and he said the range dropped off massively!!!

You obviously listen to a lot of stories, seems that's what your Thesis was based on too.

The Tesla range is 250-350 miles range for the 85 kwh and that's been verified and available on public forums by actual owners, the Toyota Rav 4 EV 150 miles good average.

I haven't the time to reply to all the comments now, but I thought I'd comment on this before I've to go.

getz

shedweller wrote: »

I remember when i was in NZ this news article came up once...once...that featured this lad that modified his car to include water, or more specifically, steam as part of the combustion process. The aim was more mpg and although i don't remember the exact increase, it was quite a bit. The news channel even had a short interview with him and showed us the engine with more than a bit extra pipework going on!

My point is that we heard of this lad and his invention once and once only. Rest assured that other similar ideas are shelved for future reference. Be they batteries etc.

I wanted a electric car but I could not get a long enough lead,[joke] but it is interesting to note that the UK government has set up a charging power data base,-water based engines [not steam]was invented over 20 years ago by a Manchester engineer,he said he would not sell out to a oil companys ,the problem he had was that then he could not get investment to develop his engine.another UK engineer has won funding to continue building his cars that are running on just air, the prototype is already on the road.

the_syco

TheBikeGuy wrote: »

Electric vehicles will never be a success with these batteries, no conspiracy about it.

As shown in the doc "Who Killed the Electric Car", GM bought got the company who made better batteries to stop making them. The conspiracy is that the businesses who get kick backs from the oil companies will try to ensure that the oil companies stay in business.

I'd wonder where'd we'd be if the electric car had taken off in 1910?

seamus

the_syco wrote: »

I'd wonder where'd we'd be if the electric car had taken off in 1910?

This is the thing. People tend to forget that the reason IC engines work as well as they do is because they've had the guts of 100 years of massive funding to make themselves better at what they do.

The first model T, considered the first affordable consumer vehicle (EVs are only beginning to enter the affordable level now) had a top speed of 80km/h for a range of around 200km.

So judging them for poor range is not judging on level terms. The difference is that the technology underpinning EVs is making up ground much faster. Within ten years mid-range EVs will easily do 500km on a single charge and fast charge in less than 5 minutes.

I don't think "conspiracy" really covers the current attitude towards EVs, because nobody's making a secret of it. Car manufacturers are facing massive resistance to EV plans from oil companies. Tesla for example, is fighting the law in a number of US states for the right to sell their vehicles without a dealer. Dealers are refusing to stock Tesla due to pressure from other manufacturers, and Tesla are legally prohibited from just selling direct because the dealers have a cartel.
The media outwardly lie and falsify information to make electric cars appear bad. The most famous being the Top Gear test where they ran the batteries down, drove around in circles and avoided driving to a nearby charge station just so they could get a shot of the vehicle dying and claim the range was too small.

So I don't see any reason to believe there's a "conspiracy theory" in relation to EVs at all. There's an unashamed and public anti-EV agenda, which has been sold for quite a long time.

seamus

seamus wrote: »

Tesla for example, is fighting the law in a number of US states for the right to sell their vehicles without a dealer. Dealers are refusing to stock Tesla due to pressure from other manufacturers, and Tesla are legally prohibited from just selling direct because the dealers have a cartel.

One of the reasons Tesla can't sell direct to the consumer is because there must be a warranty system, if not for the dealer who would you bring the car back to ?

So it's not unreasonable to expect this as being law.

Unless Tesla opens a nationwide service network I can't expect that law to change.

Would you import a 80,000 Car with no dealer network or anywhere you can take the car for repair ?

Tzar Chasm

tesla want to open their own show rooms and dealerships, cutting out the middleman
this is where the law stymies them, at the moment a manufacturer is not allowed to sell directly to the public, they must go through a third party dealer who gets to put a markup on the vehicle.

seamus

The car has to come from somewhere, it can go back there. If Tesla deliver the vehicle, surely they can pick it up again if there's a warranty or service issue? I don't see the need for a bricks and mortar building.

If you buy a luxury vehicle in Ireland they will not only pick it up when it needs servicing, they will leave you a courtesy car.

Looks like some of us are getting chastised by the mods for being naughty

I didn't intend to offend TheBikeGuy, and I'm sorry if you were offended, but I think you need to do a lot more research. I think someone who comes out of college with a degree/masters etc should have all the facts and should be at least open minded. we need people with degrees/masters because this technology will progress and improve it is the future and we are witnessing it's birth. In 30 years we'll be able to tell the young ones that yeah there was such thing as an electric car that would do 75 miles, but you know what ? we had to start somewhere and it was good enough, not perfect but good enough for a lot of people.

An E.V has a lot of potential for many people, and sure enough the Germans won't like the Leaf at 140 kph on the Autobahn wouldn't be too good for range. But for many people on a small island like ours they are suitable for a lot of people who don't need more than 140 odd miles a day range. Even for the Germans a lot of them won't drive more than 140 odd miles a day either and

There are many who can commute to the Luas stops, Naturalblue being one example of a high mileage EV driver, but we need work place chargers for those who need to use them such as high mileage commuters and apartment owners who can't install chargers or people who park on street, but we need the Government to address this issue and it isn't even on their minds at all.

Electric cars are not perfect nor is an ice ae ice car can go for many miles, it needs a lot more maintenance, that can work out quiet expensive over the life of the car.

It's unknown yet how long the battery will last in the Leaf before it's unusable, but the thing is every manufacturer will use a different chemistry in their battery and so if the Leaf lasts 150,000 miles doesn't mean the Zoe won't last 300,000 miles etc etc.

There are a few things you can do to prolong the life of the battery such as in the case of the leaf only using the charge to 80% function and not discharging below 30%, don't keep it at 100% for more than a few hours. Never leave the car fully charged on a hot day, never leave the car fully charged for days or fully discharged for days.

Don't fast charge every day, not full fast charges while on a road trip is ok, you need it use it. You need all the range ? use it.

That seems like a lot of effort to many ? but given time it would be 2nd nature, the leaf does a good enough job to protect the battery but the simple fact is the more of your battery you use the shorter it's life, using the middle part will greatly extend it's cycle life.

If Nissan said that they would exchange the battery at 70% capacity and buy your used pack that would be terrific but it won't happen the best you will get is 70% repaired pack maybe more but the guarantee is 70%.

Only time will tell as to how long the battery will actually last.

heat is the biggest problem and fortunately Ireland's climate is very kind to batteries.

If there is a change to the tax system again or some mandate that all cars must be xxx emissions by xxxx you'd be surprised how many people will change to electric if the system favours them over Diesel.

Currently there is no incentive for anyone that only pays 20-30 Euro's in petrol or diesel a week and less to change to an electric car as fuel is affordable and so can people afford to maintain their cars, some people anyway. And a lot if not all these people do not care in the slightest what gets them from A to B as long as it gets them there and they can afford it, and they have no interest in electric because what they got now does them fine. So you see it's not just the technology isn't good enough there are more factors involved.

ScumLord

I think the Tesla S shows that electric cars are now viable even on current battery technology.

I think the future is electric, they are superior cars in every way except fuel tank capacity. Current batteries won't cut it and that's the end of the story when it comes to what's stopping us all from buying electric cars.

I've been following the Tesla reviews online and the travel range on the top of the range car would be plenty for Ireland, if we had the fast charging stations I could drive to Dublin, have lunch and drive back to Galway without a problem.

BloodBath

if we had the fast charging stations I could drive to Dublin, have lunch and drive back to Galway without a problem.

-edit- Sorry I got the distance wrong. You may well need to charge depending on conditions. If you could charge while parked in Dublin though it wouldn't be a problem.

You wouldn't need to with a 300m/480km range battery. Even with reduced range with CC on, increased motorway speeds and low temps it would still be enough. Assuming a max round trip of 300km which gives plenty of room for city travelling and traffic conditions. Obviously that's the high end model and it's not cheap.

The multiple near future developments in Lithium battery tech will bring those ranges to the affordable mainstream market though. It shouldn't take more than 5-10 years for at least 1 of those developments to hit the market offering 10 times the capacity of current Li-Ion batteries. The energy density is going to far exceed fossil fuels.

The revolution is happening right now. EV's in every driveway is coming in the near future.

monkeysnapper

I've always loved the electric car idea and I've just spent hours watching the 2 documentrys , and I'm glad some people hate them and some see them as the way forward . I for one want to be a part in making them become the future.

The thought that my children will be driving petrol and diesel cars scares me as that will mean 14 years from now were not making any progress.

The boss of Nissan said it better than me, he said the car isn't for everybody . He's right. But hopefully it's the stepping stone.

the_syco

BloodBath wrote: »

You wouldn't need to with a 300m/480km range battery. Even with reduced range with CC on, increased motorway speeds and low temps it would still be enough. Assuming a max round trip of 300km which gives plenty of room for city travelling and traffic conditions. Obviously that's the high end model and it's not cheap.

Maybe not here, or in europe, but in the states, it will. And it's in the states that they make or break.

BloodBath wrote: »

The multiple near future developments in Lithium battery tech will bring those ranges to the affordable mainstream market though. It shouldn't take more than 5-10 years for at least 1 of those developments to hit the market offering 10 times the capacity of current Li-Ion batteries. The energy density is going to far exceed fossil fuels.

Pretty sure such a battery already exists, but is owned by GM.

copeyhagen

pitty its the burning of fossil fuels that generates the leccy for these charge points