Advertisement
Help Keep Boards Alive. Support us by going ad free today. See here: https://subscriptions.boards.ie/.
https://www.boards.ie/group/1878-subscribers-forum

Private Group for paid up members of Boards.ie. Join the club.
Hi all, please see this major site announcement: https://www.boards.ie/discussion/2058427594/boards-ie-2026

"Ridiculous beliefs, by definition, deserve ridicule"

  • 25-06-2013 04:34PM
    #1
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    How do,

    Firstly, I may be an asshóle. I really don't want to be an asshóle and I really don't think I am but I can't help feel that if I was vocal to friends and family about my beliefs I would be labelled as such. The way I see it, anyone who has a belief in any established religion is an idiot. There it is, I'm sorry, it's how I feel.

    I have tried searching for intellectual arguments against my belief as I don't want to be so arrogant to label the majority of the world as idiots. Closest I came was listening to John Lennox, a very smart man and doesn't fall into the usual pitfalls of circular arguments (i believe because it's written, etc.) but nonetheless his arguments still breakdown in the usual watchmaker/Pascal fallacies.

    I can't help but see any argument for belief that can't be shot down with any cartoon posted in the funny side of religion thread (although labelled as funny, some really clever points raised in it) or the usual russell's teapot response. It's nonsense, I think we can all agree on that here.

    My main issue though is atheists saying well believe in what you want and I'll leave you be. Now I don't condone forcing someone to believe in something. the entire premise is absurd but why do some people not have an issue with majority of the world believing in a fairytale? Richard Dawkins recently claimed a certain journalist should be discredited due to him believing Mohammed rose to the heavens on a flying horse. He was forced to retract after a response from the general public, with quite a few atheists involved, saying if it doesn't effect his work then it shouldn't be an issue. Yes it should be an issue! The man is insane! How anyone can take anyone seriously after making such a claim is as mad as someone who claims Elvis or John Lennon is still alive (shamelessly robbed from Sam Harris). If someone made this claim, they would be treated differently and rightly so. If someone believes Mohammed split the moon in two, they should be treated equally.

    I don't want to be treated as singling out the Muslim faith though. It's all religions, anything established. When I see a turban, I see no difference between a tinfoil hat, at least the tinfoil brings some pseudo-science to it. when I see a rosary bead, crucifix or a shtreimel I think the same. I see them as no different from having faith in Zeus or Thor.

    Now if it was all harmless, it would be a different issue but it's not. We welcome the local priests from my old school into the house every year for Christmas. I hate them, utterly despise them. When I was in their school, when I was susceptible to them, when I trusted them as you should a teacher, they betrayed me. 13 years old was when science was finally a subject for me. I was taught about evidence, collecting it independently, and forming conclusions based on it. Next class, a man walks on water and any queries were shot down. They fúcked me up mentally for quite a while with that shít. Not to mention the more extreme cases of religious hostility and discrimination which I don't need to mention here. I bring these things up sometimes with friends and family and I'm instantly dismissed and told let them believe what they want to believe and they just have a relatively calm manner about it. Why?

    Their beliefs should be ridiculed, not because I don't believe them, not because I feel everyone should take my beliefs, but because they are completely and utterly absurd and dangerous to boot.

    So, am I an asshóle for thinking this? I'm completely open to correction on everything I've written as I said I never really talk to people about it openly so this little rant has been created in the shower over the last week.


«13

Comments

  • #2
    Manach
    Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 9,871 Mod ✭✭✭✭Manach


    Personally my belief system has never caused me to compose posts in the shower, all that suds and soap around - far to dangerous.


  • #3
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    You're hardly an asshole for thinking it. Chances are you're right, after all. Take care that you don't become as entrenched and irritating and prone to emotional manipulation and bullying as the people who DO believe in all that rubbish. That's the stuff that'll make you an asshole.


  • #4
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    Sarky wrote: »
    You're hardly an asshole for thinking it. Chances are you're right, after all. Take care that you don't become as entrenched and irritating and prone to emotional manipulation and bullying as the people who DO believe in all that rubbish. That's the stuff that'll make you an asshole.

    But it's not just a question of not believing. I know and you know that it's nonsense. the same way we know there's no Zeus and the same way we know there's no teapot orbiting Mars. These beliefs should be ridiculed to the highest degree shouldn't they?


  • #5
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    actuallylike wrote: »
    ..... Next class, a man walks on water and any queries were shot down....





  • #6
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    gctest50 wrote: »

    Finally, the other side offers some proof. I retract everything :)


  • Advertisement
  • #7
    gctest50
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,534 ✭✭✭gctest50


    See, ya don't even have to be a beady git to manage that trick


  • #8
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    actuallylike wrote: »
    But it's not just a question of not believing. I know and you know that it's nonsense. the same way we know there's no Zeus and the same way we know there's no teapot orbiting Mars. These beliefs should be ridiculed to the highest degree shouldn't they?

    Well, yeah. But constantly telling people they're wrong is both tiring and unlikely to win friends or influence people, and life is short.

    We're all prone to irrational behaviour of one sort or another. I firmly believe, for example, that Pacific Rim will be one of the greatest films of all time simply because it involves giant robots punching Lovecraftian monsters from another dimension. Much as I wish otherwise, Michael Bay has shown us that giant robot films can actually be turned into a rancid pile of ****, where once we thought giant robots were objectively awesome. But THIS time will be different. Right?

    Ultimately, people will only change by themselves, you can't just make someone drop their stupid beliefs. That's the thing with belief, it's insidious, it wraps itself into the nooks and crannies of a person, gets them to invest so much in it that they'll hold on to an idea even when reality openly contradicts it. And the most insidious beliefs are the ones where such conflict actually reinforces them. If the bible hadn't contained the caveat "Guys, people will think you're crazy, but that's ok, it's a test of faith", then Christianity may well have been less popular. But it's got that little meme in there; evidence to the contrary will make most believers cling even tighter to their faith because clergy and assorted preachers tell them that even when they're wrong, they're actually right.

    There's very little arguing with that kind of crazy. People have to make their own minds up. By all means point out the dead ends in their path, show them something that challenges this or that belief. But constantly back seat driving will just make them turn the car around and go home.


  • #9
    actuallylike
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 1,468 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    Sarky wrote: »
    We're all prone to irrational behaviour of one sort or another. I firmly believe, for example, that Pacific Rim will be one of the greatest films of all time simply because it involves giant robots punching Lovecraftian monsters from another dimension. Much as I wish otherwise, Michael Bay has shown us that giant robot films can actually be turned into a rancid pile of ****, where once we thought giant robots were objectively awesome. But THIS time will be different. Right?
    But this belief isn't irrational. It's perfectly plausible by evidence. Del Toro is an amazing film-maker especially in visual styles. you've no doubt seen and loved many of his movies. You're making an informed belief based on this but also smartly not cementing your belief by been open to correction, having not seen the film.
    Sarky wrote: »
    Ultimately, people will only change by themselves, you can't just make someone drop their stupid beliefs. That's the thing with belief, it's insidious, it wraps itself into the nooks and crannies of a person, gets them to invest so much in it that they'll hold on to an idea even when reality openly contradicts it. And the most insidious beliefs are the ones where such conflict actually reinforces them. If the bible hadn't contained the caveat "Guys, people will think you're crazy, but that's ok, it's a test of faith", then Christianity may well have been less popular. But it's got that little meme in there; evidence to the contrary will make most believers cling even tighter to their faith because clergy and assorted preachers tell them that even when they're wrong, they're actually right.

    There's very little arguing with that kind of crazy. People have to make their own minds up. By all means point out the dead ends in their path, show them something that challenges this or that belief. But constantly back seat driving will just make them turn the car around and go home.
    You talk about people holding onto ideas even when reality contradicts them and then saying people have to make their own mind up. Very hard to make your own mind up when you've been force fed these beliefs from a young age. Maybe if these beliefs are ridiculed more it might get through to people. If a family member started walking around with a tinfoil hat saying it protects him from aliens, surely you wouldn't 'let him make his own mind up'?


  • #10
    joseph brand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    Sarky wrote: »

    Ultimately, people will only change by themselves, you can't just make someone drop their stupid beliefs. That's the thing with belief, it's insidious, it wraps itself into the nooks and crannies of a person, gets them to invest so much in it that they'll hold on to an idea even when reality openly contradicts it. And the most insidious beliefs are the ones where such conflict actually reinforces them. If the bible hadn't contained the caveat "Guys, people will think you're crazy, but that's ok, it's a test of faith", then Christianity may well have been less popular. But it's got that little meme in there; evidence to the contrary will make most believers cling even tighter to their faith because clergy and assorted preachers tell them that even when they're wrong, they're actually right.

    There's very little arguing with that kind of crazy. People have to make their own minds up. By all means point out the dead ends in their path, show them something that challenges this or that belief. But constantly back seat driving will just make them turn the car around and go home.

    This reminds me of the way some older folks have dedicated so much time and money to their church, that the idea of admitting to others, and themselves, that it doesn't make any sense, is probably quite scary. Poor craters just need an arm around their shoulders to gently coax them out of the closet.


  • #11
    NegativeCreep
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,351 ✭✭✭NegativeCreep


    I think anyone who has a strong belief either way is an idiot. A strong belief in God = idiot and a strong belief that God doesn't exist = idiot!
    No one knows exactly what the story is regarding the existence of a God so to develop a strong opinion about it makes no sense.


  • Advertisement
  • #12
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    actuallylike wrote: »
    But this belief isn't irrational. It's perfectly plausible by evidence. Del Toro is an amazing film-maker especially in visual styles. you've no doubt seen and loved many of his movies. You're making an informed belief based on this but also smartly not cementing your belief by been open to correction, having not seen the film.

    Not really, I'm basing my hopes on this movie purely on the fact that giant robots will be punching things in the face. Del Toro's involvement is entirely secondary. That's not very rational. And I don't care because giant robots :pac:
    You talk about people holding onto ideas even when reality contradicts them and then saying people have to make their own mind up. Very hard to make your own mind up when you've been force fed these beliefs from a young age. Maybe if these beliefs are ridiculed more it might get through to people. If a family member started walking around with a tinfoil hat saying it protects him from aliens, surely you wouldn't 'let him make his own mind up'?

    Oh, I know how hard it is to walk away from a belief you've had since you were a child, believe you me. People are complicated, and generally don't deal well with constant ridicule. Untangling the tendrils of a stupid belief from someone's mind is ultimately something only that person can do. You can help them along every now and then, but... Well, it's like removing a leech. If you just try to yank it off you'll probably do way more damage. It's easier to gently discourage the leech from hanging on. Or to let it eat its fill and then just drop off of its own accord.

    Perhaps look at it this way: You've been Catholic since your parents baptised you, and the ridicule of your non-Catholic peers has only ever reinforced your belief. And then one day you realise it's all bollocks and that many of the people you trusted the most have been lying to you, manipulating you. You're gutted, and angry, and ashamed. Who will you turn to? The guys who've been ridiculing you all your life? They don't seem very nice, they were always mean and telling you how you were stupid, there's nothing at all to say they won't keep doing it.

    I'd sooner turn to the chap who occasionally challenged your belief but never really made a big deal about it, being more interested in what you did as opposed to why you did it.


  • #13
    joseph brand
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,540 ✭✭✭joseph brand


    actuallylike wrote: »
    You talk about people holding onto ideas even when reality contradicts them and then saying people have to make their own mind up. Very hard to make your own mind up when you've been force fed these beliefs from a young age. Maybe if these beliefs are ridiculed more it might get through to people. If a family member started walking around with a tinfoil hat saying it protects him from aliens, surely you wouldn't 'let him make his own mind up'?

    My friend's gf told me a few weeks ago to 'stop pushing my non-beliefs'. This was in relation to me mocking an Irish psychic, who did a show in the Abberley Hotel in Tallaght. A bunch of girls I know, including the girl mentioned, went to see her. All my friends know it's a con, but they chose to keep shtum, but I couldn't hold my tongue.

    These girls are my friends, and because of that, I obviously do not want to see them wasting their money on charlatans. If a person can believe in this crap, what else can they fall prey to?

    Pointing out the total absurdity in someone's beliefs will always anger them, as it's almost like telling them they are stupid. I've discovered a new tactic, which is a little bit more dramatic. It involves grabbing a 'believer' by the shoulders, shaking them abruptly and shouting at them; "WAKE UP WAKE UP!" ;)


  • #14
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,281 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    On the 'mixed marriage' thread and similar, it's always the atheist who has to compromise with their religious partner about kids schools, etc, though, isn't it? There's an element of tolerance of atheism provided it's 'don't ask, don't tell' atheism, or perhaps even 'Uncle Tom atheism' :eek:, where believers expect us to basically shut up and keep our logic and reason to ourselves for the sake of domestic / familial harmony... it's one thing to agree to compromise with your spouse/partner on such matters but to have one's in-laws etc. sticking their oar in is something else!

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #15
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,443 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Hi OP. Every time you find yourself stressed by the silly beliefs of other people, just come on here and talk about biscuits.

    Oh, word of warning.... Jaffa Cakes are not biscuits.


  • #16
    Kivaro
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,105 ✭✭✭Kivaro


    endacl wrote: »
    Oh, word of warning.... Jaffa Cakes are not biscuits.

    Ah, that's just ridiculous.

    Are ye satanists picking on Jaffa Cakes because the initials are JC?


  • #17
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,443 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Kivaro wrote: »
    Ah, that's just ridiculous.

    Are ye satanists picking on Jaffa Cakes because the initials are JC?

    No. Because they're vile.


  • #18
    Hotblack Desiato
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 41,281 ✭✭✭✭Hotblack Desiato


    Lidl do RASPBERRY jaffa cakes. What is the world coming to?

    I'm partial to your abracadabra
    I'm raptured by the joy of it all



  • #19
    endacl
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22,443 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Didn't take long to get back to food!

    :D


  • #20
    IT-Guy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭IT-Guy


    endacl wrote: »
    Hi OP. Every time you find yourself stressed by the silly beliefs of other people, just come on here and talk about biscuits.

    Oh, word of warning.... Jaffa Cakes are not biscuits.

    Oi! Cross-thread contamination! And Jaffa cakes rule...:D

    OP, I've learned to gauge how deeply attached someone is to their beliefs before I decide whether or not to contradict them. Most people can handle a healthy critique/debate but beware those who've tied their beliefs into their identity and way of life. Been there, done that and it ain't pretty!


  • #21
    ShooterSF
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,822 ✭✭✭ShooterSF


    This video popped up in my subscriptions just at the right time for this and he puts it best:



  • Advertisement
  • #22
    Esme Old Couch
    Posts: 13,753 ✭✭✭✭ Esme Old Couch


    I just can't believe that Dawkins retracted such a statement.


  • #23
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    actuallylike wrote: »
    Their beliefs should be ridiculed, not because I don't believe them, not because I feel everyone should take my beliefs, but because they are completely and utterly absurd and dangerous to boot.

    So, am I an asshóle for thinking this? I'm completely open to correction on everything I've written as I said I never really talk to people about it openly so this little rant has been created in the shower over the last week.

    There is nothing wrong in thinking this, thinking is good, unless it becomes obsessive and then thinking is bad. However, you are trivializing a very complex topic, and rather than ridiculing beliefs you should try and understand why people hold religious beliefs or more importantly why they participate in religious practices or rituals.

    Religious practices have been around for at least 300,000 years and perhaps 500,000 years when our brains evolved to roughly their current size. There is even some evidence that species before homo sapiens buried their dead which is a religious ritual. Why religion evolved in humans, why it was selected and retained, and why it is so prevalent across so many different cultures is a highly complex field of study with no consensus theory. Personally I believe that the simplest explanation is the community one, that people who participated in community religious practices were more likely to be part of a social family unit and more likely to procreate. There is a strong fertility element to most ancient religions. In terms of organized religions, there is cave drawing evidence for shamanic rituals going back 80,000 years.

    There is also the suggestion that religious practice just makes people feel good, which in itself becomes a genetic selection criteria based on fitness. There are known benefits from religious practices such as meditation and group rituals that calm the mind and reduce stress, and perhaps this translated to longer lives and greater chance of procreation. In my view this is the main reason people today participate in religion and not because they believe in sky fairies. Sam Harris by the way practices Buddhist meditation techniques although he does not describe himself as religious.

    Keep in mind unless you know someone really well they are unlikely to divulge what they actually believe. Beliefs also constantly evolve, which is one of the reasons people are reluctant to talk about them. Many people, maybe even most, go along with religion because of the feel good factor. If it makes them feel good, calms their minds, and makes some sense of this puzzling life experience of ours, then it is highly rational. It doesn't matter that it is all in people's minds, everything we experience is via our minds.


  • #24
    [-0-]
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,981 ✭✭✭[-0-]


    Deleted User wrote: »
    I just can't believe that Dawkins retracted such a statement.

    Frustrating. But he probably didn't want to be killed.


  • #25
    sephir0th
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 390 ✭✭sephir0th


    nagirrac wrote: »
    If it makes them feel good, calms their minds, and makes some sense of this puzzling life experience of ours, then it is highly rational. It doesn't matter that it is all in people's minds, everything we experience is via our minds.

    So anything I conjure in my head and believe that makes me feel good and calms my mind is rational?

    ra·tion·al
    /ˈraSHənl/
    Adjective
    Based on or in accordance with reason or logic: "a rational explanation".


  • #26
    pH
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,188 ✭✭✭pH


    endacl wrote: »
    Hi OP. Every time you find yourself stressed by the silly beliefs of other people, just come on here and talk about biscuits.

    Oh, word of warning.... Jaffa Cakes are not biscuits.

    http://www.hmrc.gov.uk/manuals/vfoodmanual/vfood6260.htm

    We live in a sad world.


  • #27
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    sephir0th wrote: »
    So anything I conjure in my head and believe that makes me feel good and calms my mind is rational?

    ra·tion·al
    /ˈraSHənl/
    Adjective
    Based on or in accordance with reason or logic: "a rational explanation".

    +1

    Some people don't like the stigma of being called irrational, but still want to believe in all these fanciful things . So they like to pretend that judgement is more fluid and open to interpretation than it really is (for example saying that we experience everything through the mind, which is like saying all painting is a beautiful as any other paint because it is all just painted by fingers.)

    I just ask these people to build a plane using their "common sense" and see how far they get... :eek:


  • #28
    daveyeh
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 774 ✭✭✭daveyeh


    You'd love a good chat with Bono...

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?t=2056977606


  • #29
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    sephir0th wrote: »
    So anything I conjure in my head and believe that makes me feel good and calms my mind is rational?

    ra·tion·al
    /ˈraSHənl/
    Adjective
    Based on or in accordance with reason or logic: "a rational explanation".

    In the context I am using the word rationality I mean based on reason or evidence, but is also involved in solving a problem i.e. the belief or practice gives the desired result. This is the psychological definition of rational.

    Take the example of someone who is highly anxious and struggles to live a normal existence because of it. They embark on a meditation practice daily (something entirely in their head) and it brings enormous benefits. They believe meditation helps reduce their anxiety and allows them live a more normal life. That is an entirely rational belief for them, regardless of what anyone else thinks.


  • #30
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Zombrex wrote: »
    Some people don't like the stigma of being called irrational, but still want to believe in all these fanciful things . So they like to pretend that judgement is more fluid and open to interpretation than it really is (for example saying that we experience everything through the mind, which is like saying all painting is a beautiful as any other paint because it is all just painted by fingers.)

    We experience everything through our mind. You just need to think about it a little more critically. Obviously all our thoughts are in our mind. When you see something it is a mental construct produced in your brain, when you touch something the sensation of touch is created in your brain, pain is produced in your brain, etc. What you think of as solid when you push something with you hand for example is the repulsion between negative charge on your hand and the negative charge on what you push, this is translated by your brain into the sensation of touch.

    The correct painting analogy is if you and I were to look at an abstract painting. You think its horrible and recoil from it and never wish to look at it again, I think its beautiful and stay looking at it and memorize the image as pleasing. Both beliefs about the painting are entirely rational as they are based on sensory evidence.


  • Advertisement
  • #31
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,248 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    nagirrac wrote: »
    We experience everything through our mind. You just need to think about it a little more critically. Obviously all our thoughts are in our mind. When you see something it is a mental construct produced in your brain, when you touch something the sensation of touch is created in your brain, pain is produced in your brain, etc. What you think of as solid when you push something with you hand for example is the repulsion between negative charge on your hand and the negative charge on what you push, this is translated by your brain into the sensation of touch.

    The correct painting analogy is if you and I were to look at an abstract painting. You think its horrible and recoil from it and never wish to look at it again, I think its beautiful and stay looking at it and memorize the image as pleasing. Both beliefs about the painting are entirely rational as they are based on sensory evidence.

    Based on that reasoning, nothing can ever be considered irrational as we can only experience the world through our senses. :confused:

    If you can read this, you're too close!



Advertisement
Advertisement