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"Ridiculous beliefs, by definition, deserve ridicule"

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    #32
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Therefore magic.


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    #33
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    koth wrote: »
    Based on that reasoning, nothing can ever be considered irrational as we can only experience the world through our senses. :confused:

    We can only experience the world through our senses, how do you propose experiencing it otherwise? Lots of things are irrational, for example compulsive negative thoughts that become obsessive and lead to negative outcomes for either oneself or in particular others is irrational. Religion can be irrational in this sense and there are plenty examples of it. It doesn't have to be though.

    Unfortunately I have an appointment with Mickey Mouse, as it happens to indulge in some "feel good" fantasy, so will have to return to this. It is a fascinating topic.


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    #34
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Sarky wrote: »
    Therefore magic.

    Is this the right time to introduce, drum roll..... quantum

    What quantum mechanics tells us is that "what we can observe about the world is only a tiny subset of what exists" (Sean Carroll, From Eternity to Here).

    It is a very strange place out there sarky, and very magical.


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    #35
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    Oh dear.


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    #36
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,739 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    nagirrac wrote: »
    We can only experience the world through our senses, how do you propose experiencing it otherwise?
    I never said we have an alternative. Just that your reasoning seems faulty. Just because we experience something through our senses, doesn't means that it means the experience/consequence is rational. Plenty of people hallucinate strange things. I wouldn't consider that rational.
    Lots of things are irrational, for example compulsive negative thoughts that become obsessive and lead to negative outcomes for either oneself or in particular others is irrational. Religion can be irrational in this sense and there are plenty examples of it. It doesn't have to be though.

    Unfortunately I have an appointment with Mickey Mouse, as it happens to indulge in some "feel good" fantasy, so will have to return to this. It is a fascinating topic.

    but you said that if something makes the person feel good, then it's rational. :confused:

    You said:
    If it makes them feel good, calms their minds, and makes some sense of this puzzling life experience of ours, then it is highly rational. It doesn't matter that it is all in people's minds, everything we experience is via our minds.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #37
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    koth wrote: »
    but you said that if something makes the person feel good, then it's rational. :confused:

    ..except the example I used doesn't make them feel good.

    Beliefs that have a negative outcome for the individual or for others in particular are irrational. People who are obsessed about anything, whether religion or anything else they get mentally stuck in, are generally very unhappy. Many fundamentalists for example are very angry and unhappy people, this is highly irrational to allow a belief have such a negative outcome in your life.

    My main point is that religious belief or practice can be rational or irrational, and have a positive or negative effect, depending on how you approach it. Meditation for example is a highly positive experience, for the individual and in many cases for those interacting with the individual.


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    #38
    Stuboyovo
    Registered Users Posts: 46 ✭Stuboyovo


    actuallylike wrote: »
    I see them as no different from having faith in Zeus or Thor.

    Even Zeus and Thor probably have a root in alien visitors, have you not been watching Ancient Aliens on History Channel? It was actually quite a coherent argument. I was surprised.


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    #39
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,739 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    So ridiculous beliefs are rational if the believer is happy, otherwise they're irrational/ridiculous?

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #40
    IT-Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭IT-Guy


    nagirrac wrote: »
    Is this the right time to introduce, drum roll..... quantum

    What quantum mechanics tells us is that "what we can observe about the world is only a tiny subset of what exists" (Sean Carroll, From Eternity to Here).

    It is a very strange place out there sarky, and very magical.

    Just because we don't understand something doesn't make it weird or magical. It's unexplained, no need to adopt mystical affectations!


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    #41
    Turtwig
    Registered Users Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    nagirrac wrote: »
    People who are obsessed about anything, whether religion or anything else they get mentally stuck in, are generally very unhappy. Many fundamentalists for example are very angry and unhappy people,

    This seems interesting. At the risk of derailing of this thread even further, what do you support this claim with? :)


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    #42
    IT-Guy
    Registered Users Posts: 514 ✭✭✭IT-Guy


    Jernal wrote: »
    This seems interesting. At the risk of derailing of this thread even further, what do you support this claim with? :)

    Drum roll...quantum :pac:


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    #43
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Jernal wrote: »
    This seems interesting. At the risk of derailing of this thread even further, what do you support this claim with? :)

    Unfortunately I have to run, but in my experience people who become obsessed with their beliefs are generally unhappy. Most people who visit therapists are there due to obsessive thinking patterns which can have a negative impact on their lives. I don't know many fundamentalists but the ones I have met were generally angry and seemed quite unhappy. I think you have see examples of this in Ireland recently with how irrational some people got on the abortion issue.


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    #44
    sephir0th
    Registered Users Posts: 390 ✭✭sephir0th


    Your definition of 'rational' does not align with the general consensus of what the word means. It allows you to say religious belief is rational, but it's misleading. I've seen so many arguments on this forum where both sides are arguing using different definitions of the word.

    If we go by your definition of: rational = makes you overall happier, then yes, I might agree with you. If I believed that my teddy bear came to life every night, and that made me feel warm and fuzzy inside, then that is rational by your definition right? If so, I'm just going to bow out of this conversation.


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    #45
    Geomy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    Jernal wrote: »
    This seems interesting. At the risk of derailing of this thread even further, what do you support this claim with? :)

    I don't think any one needs to support this claim with any explanation. ..

    If you're obsessed with anything it means you're obsessed, therfore an obsessed person spends more time acting out obsessively.

    Having less time to live a more normal lifestyle because the obsession has taken over their life. ..

    Cognitive therapy is supposed to work well with obsessional behaviour and thinking :-)


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    #46
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    I'm obsessed with giant robots, zombies, pirates, ninjas and puppies, but these things make me obscenely happy. There goes that argument.


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    #47
    PopePalpatine
    Registered Users Posts: 11,869 ✭✭✭✭PopePalpatine


    sephir0th wrote: »
    If I believed that my teddy bear came to life every night, and that made me feel warm and fuzzy inside, then that is rational by your definition right?

    What if that teddy is an alcoholic pothead that sounds like Peter Griffin? :pac:


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    #48
    Geomy
    Registered Users Posts: 1,296 ✭✭✭Geomy


    Sarky wrote: »
    I'm obsessed with giant robots, zombies, pirates, ninjas and puppies, but these things make me obscenely happy. There goes that argument.

    Lol sure you have a nice mixed bag to keep yourself contented....


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    #49
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Sarky wrote: »
    I'm obsessed with giant robots, zombies, pirates, ninjas and puppies, but these things make me obscenely happy. There goes that argument.

    That's not the argument. Do you wake up every morning thinking about zombies? No matter how you try do they continuously invade your thoughts all day? Are you miserable because thinking about anything other than zombies is literally a huge effort?
    That's obsession and it is a very negative mental state and can be dehabilitating for many people.


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    #50
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    sephir0th wrote: »
    Your definition of 'rational' does not align with the general consensus of what the word means. It allows you to say religious belief is rational, but it's misleading. I've seen so many arguments on this forum where both sides are arguing using different definitions of the word.

    If we go by your definition of: rational = makes you overall happier, then yes, I might agree with you. If I believed that my teddy bear came to life every night, and that made me feel warm and fuzzy inside, then that is rational by your definition right? If so, I'm just going to bow out of this conversation.

    The word rational has different meanings depending on the subject. Religious belief or religious practice is best understood in the psychology realm rather than the philosophy realm. What is irrational in terms of logic can be entirely rational in terms of psychology.

    Take the example of the placebo effect. It makes no sense logically and is irrational to believe in yet it works so is rational from a psychological standpoint. The distinction in psychology is that the belief or action is confirmed by the outcome. This is why belief in God can be argued to be irrational from a logical standpoint but is rational from a psychological standpoint. If believing in God and spending say 15 minutes a day in quiet contemplation reduces someones anxiety and improves the quality of their life that is entirely rational. In contrast believing in some religious idea that makes you unhappy and unloads that unhappiness on others is irrational.


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    #51
    equivariant
    Registered Users Posts: 966 ✭✭✭equivariant


    Getting back to (what I think is) the OP's point. I think that we should keep the big picture in mind here. Yes it is annoying to be asked to respect ridiculous religious beliefs, but fortunately the level of respect that is required is decreasing dramatically all the time. 20 years ago there would have been public outrage if the minister of education spoke about the Catholic Church the way that Ruairi Quinn did a couple of days ago. Now, it is considered acceptable.

    It is important to make sure that this trend continues however. We cannot take for granted the fact that reason will triumph over religion. That is why people like Dawkins are very important. They broaden the parameters of the debate and they force people to justify their demands for respect. I have a lot more respect for Dawkins public stance on religion (retractions nothwithstanding) than say, Stephen Jay Gould's 'non overlapping majisteria' idea. Dawkins may on occasion be slightly abrasive but he is a genuine force for positive social change, much more so than NOMA advocates imo.


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    #52
    Kidchameleon
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,482 ✭✭✭Kidchameleon


    Op is no better than your average bible bashing soap box nut on grafton street / outside the gpo


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    #53
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 51,739 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Op is no better than your average bible bashing soap box nut on grafton street / outside the gpo

    I don't see how posting something on an internet forum for Atheism and Agnosticisim is the same as a bible thumper shouting over a megaphone on a public street.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



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    #54
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    nagirrac wrote: »
    The word rational has different meanings depending on the subject. Religious belief or religious practice is best understood in the psychology realm rather than the philosophy realm. What is irrational in terms of logic can be entirely rational in terms of psychology.

    Take the example of the placebo effect. It makes no sense logically and is irrational to believe in yet it works so is rational from a psychological standpoint. The distinction in psychology is that the belief or action is confirmed by the outcome. This is why belief in God can be argued to be irrational from a logical standpoint but is rational from a psychological standpoint. If believing in God and spending say 15 minutes a day in quiet contemplation reduces someones anxiety and improves the quality of their life that is entirely rational. In contrast believing in some religious idea that makes you unhappy and unloads that unhappiness on others is irrational.

    What? :confused:

    Why is the placebo effect logically irrational?


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    #55
    Zombrex
    Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Op is no better than your average bible bashing soap box nut on grafton street / outside the gpo

    Or no better than a 1st century cult leader wanting around telling everyone he is the son of god and that we should all worship him because he is the only one who can grant eternal life to us ....

    Crazy people ay, what is the world coming to ...


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    #56
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    Kidchameleon wrote: »
    Op is no better than your average bible bashing soap box nut on grafton street / outside the gpo

    Not at all. He sounds passionate and rational. Inspirational, almost. I can relate to him.

    I may even become his disciple. ;)


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    #57
    actuallylike
    Registered Users Posts: 1,450 ✭✭✭actuallylike


    old hippy wrote: »
    Not at all. He sounds passionate and rational. Inspirational, almost. I can relate to him.

    I may even become his disciple. ;)

    Donations welcome ;)


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    #58
    old hippy
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 9,441 ✭✭✭old hippy


    actuallylike wrote: »
    Donations welcome ;)

    Joking aside, I've crossed paths with evangelicals who try and shout you down when you point out their lies. Teens and guitar players with fire in their eyes. Preaching that the world is 6 thousand years old. I tried to explain that this was a lie and some of the heavier set posse surrrounded me. "It's all in the Bible" was the mantra. Telling me then to "go home and think about the word".

    Fascinating, scary and yes, dangerous.


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    #59
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Zombrex wrote: »
    What? :confused:

    Why is the placebo effect logically irrational?

    Because from a medicinal or physiological standpoint a sugar pill foe example shiuld have no effect. It is purely a psychological effect. Like religion. That's actually a good way to think about religion, its a placebo effect.


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    #60
    Sarky
    Closed Accounts Posts: 31,967 ✭✭✭✭Sarky


    nagirrac wrote: »
    That's not the argument. Do you wake up every morning thinking about zombies? No matter how you try do they continuously invade your thoughts all day? Are you miserable because thinking about anything other than zombies is literally a huge effort?
    That's obsession and it is a very negative mental state and can be dehabilitating for many people.

    I'm not sure what your point is because I can't stop thinking about Batman :(


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    #61
    nagirrac
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,019 ✭✭✭nagirrac


    Sarky wrote: »
    I'm not sure what your point is because I can't stop thinking about Batman :(

    Then you need help!


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