Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

RDM_83 again · 23-06-2013 02:51AM

Justin1982 wrote: »

You are refering to the possibility that the father of the foetus suffers some sort of mental stress due to the loss of the foetus? Possibly there is some men like that. I'd be of the opinion that they should pay more attention and have sex with a woman who would keep the baby if she got pregnant rather than whining about a woman not keeping a child that she most likely was trying to prevent happening in the first place. I think the risks to the mother and sacrifices she makes have much more weight than any risk to the father.

Well I was referring more so to the financial costs of supporting a child and the corresponding reduction and stresses related to child support e.g your argument can be reversed to state "a woman that would keep an accidental pregnancy should only have sex with a man that would also favour keeping the child".
Also you do not know that abortions occur in married couples where they have had other children (link to a letter in tGC thread about exactly that case). I am not arguing that woman are would generally be more impacted, I am arguing that the issue is not of irrelevance to men.

Justin1982 wrote: »

As for gendercide, a mother who would keep having an abortion (possibly multiple times) when she finds out she is having a girl or a boy (as happens quiet a lot in China) would test the conscience of even the most liberal minded person. I know chickens are killed for me to eat but I dont see a need to kill more chickens than I can eat. And creating a large imbalance in both genders is probably a recipe for a large chunk of society thats pretty damn depressed with neither a single male or a single female in a village. I've grown up in a village where there was a major excess of men over women in my age group. It doesnt make for a happy upbringing

I'm sorry but thats BS, you can use the argument for restrictions on abortion for wider social reasons and I would agree with you, but if you do your not truly pro-choice. If a woman is forced to carry a child against her will in certain circumstances due to the wider pattern of other woman making similar choices, even if for the best reasons, you are still restricting her personal freedoms.

Justin1982 wrote: »

Yes men should shut up and shouldnt be allowed to vote on the topic or be allowed to shape the laws around abortion. I'd be happy to leave the vote only to women. When it comes to shaping the laws via government, as is happening at the moment, men will generally sway the law in their favour as they have the monopoly on power. Even pro choice men like myself shouldnt be allowed into making the laws or be allowed to vote.

Men having a monopoly on power is a point I would debate, we do live in a fully franchised democracy after all! And where does this logic end, presumably woman that are post menopausal or infertile should also be excluded? And does the corresponding also apply, should woman be excluded from voting on issues that only apply to men?

lazygal · 23-06-2013 06:13AM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Pro choice are pro choice till they reach their 12 week cut off. Then they are as anti choice as anyone else.

Is this sarcasm?

I'm 'prochoice'. Later term abortion makes me uncomfortable but I don't think it
should be illegal, particularly in Ireland when detailed anomaly scans showing fatal foetal abnormalities are done at 20 weeks. There's also plenty of women who don't know they're pregnant for several months. I know of a woman who got pregnant using IVF with her first baby, only to get a shock when the baby was six months old to find out she was three months gone, no signs and no 'missed periods' because she supposedly wasn't ovulating. 12 weeks is a very restrictive rule.

meeeeh · 23-06-2013 10:48AM

Justin1982 wrote: »

Yes men should shut up and shouldnt be allowed to vote on the topic or be allowed to shape the laws around abortion. I'd be happy to leave the vote only to women. When it comes to shaping the laws via government, as is happening at the moment, men will generally sway the law in their favour as they have the monopoly on power. Even pro choice men like myself shouldnt be allowed into making the laws or be allowed to vote.

That is unworkable. Should we start excluding those of non-school age from the debate about education because it doesn't affect them? Woman should have the final say but men should have say to. After all woman's decision could depend on how much support the father is supposed to offer. There are plenty of countries with fairly liberal abortion laws and as far as I know men had a say in all of those. Men in general are not a problem in this debate. The bible thumping nut jobs are. And they are represented by both genders and all age groups.

Btw I have no problem being called pro abortion. The names don't overly matter and they are not accurate anyway or pro-life group wouldn't be called pro life.

ted1 · 23-06-2013 11:16AM

Sorry Justin, you couldn't be further from the truth. Men have every right to make a decision. They contributed the sperm, a termination may be wanted because the women doesn't want a baby, isn't ready for one etc, but the man may be and could be willing to raise the child on his own.

You appear to defranchise yourself from the baby making period and want to ignore your responsibilities which is a pretty poor trait to have and I really do pity and woman that you may get pregnant as it doesn't sound like you would be supportive or take an interest in the pregnancy

GalwayGuy2 · 23-06-2013 12:48PM

I wonder what people think about it being put to a referendum? I like the democratic part of it, but I also think it would finally drag people out to vote.

Although, I don't have hopes for it being passed. Maybe I'm just cynical.

iwantmydinner · 23-06-2013 01:42PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I wonder what people think about it being put to a referendum? I like the democratic part of it, but I also think it would finally drag people out to vote.

Although, I don't have hopes for it being passed. Maybe I'm just cynical.

A referendum on what though? Two referenda have already been passed on the issue of whether a risk to life includes a risk of suicide. What question do you think should be put the voters now?

I'm not being ársey here, by the way, in case it comes across that way.

GalwayGuy2 · 23-06-2013 02:25PM

A referendum on what though? Two referenda have already been passed on the issue of whether a risk to life includes a risk of suicide. What question do you think should be put the voters now?

I'm not being ársey here, by the way, in case it comes across that way.

Both pro-choce and pro-life TDS are trying to get the new bill put to referendum by having the President refuse to sign the bill.

Tbh, when I first hear it I thought it was going to be abortion on demand or not, but apparently it's just the new bill.

FouxDaFaFa · 23-06-2013 02:48PM

They'll never get enough TDs and Senators for it to be brought to a third referendum. Seems to be a bit of a stunt. It screams "I'm so eager to keep my seat I'll force a referendum so I can blame "the people" for the result, rather than look like I'm endorsing it myself".

meeeeh · 23-06-2013 03:46PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I wonder what people think about it being put to a referendum? I like the democratic part of it, but I also think it would finally drag people out to vote.

Although, I don't have hopes for it being passed. Maybe I'm just cynical.

I'm not a fan of referndums in general. The pro life demographic is a lot more likely to vote (older, better organized, conservative...). While I guess you deserve it if you don't bother voting but unfortunately it would also affect younger generations who have no right to vote yet.

clairefontaine · 23-06-2013 04:50PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

I wonder what people think about it being put to a referendum? I like the democratic part of it, but I also think it would finally drag people out to vote.

Although, I don't have hopes for it being passed. Maybe I'm just cynical.

Does it really matter?

With Ireland's cycles of emmigration nothing will change, it's why nothing has changed.

iwantmydinner · 23-06-2013 05:19PM

GalwayGuy2 wrote: »

Both pro-choce and pro-life TDS are trying to get the new bill put to referendum by having the President refuse to sign the bill.

Tbh, when I first hear it I thought it was going to be abortion on demand or not, but apparently it's just the new bill.

IIRC the President can only refer a bill he/she has concerns about to the Supreme Court, under Article 26 of the Constitution. I'm open to correction but the President's refusal to sign a Bill into legislation doesn't lead to a referendum.

Justin1982 · 23-06-2013 11:59PM

ted1 wrote: »

Sorry Justin, you couldn't be further from the truth. Men have every right to make a decision. They contributed the sperm, a termination may be wanted because the women doesn't want a baby, isn't ready for one etc, but the man may be and could be willing to raise the child on his own.

You appear to defranchise yourself from the baby making period and want to ignore your responsibilities which is a pretty poor trait to have and I really do pity and woman that you may get pregnant as it doesn't sound like you would be supportive or take an interest in the pregnancy

As I say, its the woman who takes the risk and its her body so as far as I'm concerned its her final decision. To a certain extent I'm shooting my mouth when I say men should shut up. Men should be allowed to offer support to woman, offer to bring up the child if she has it, try persuade a woman to keep the baby. But your never going to convince me that any man should be allowed to force a woman to have a baby against her will. Men also have the ability to bully a woman into having a baby she doesnt want by either using psychological pressure, physical pressure or being involved in manipulating the law to prevent pregnant women having the option of abortion. For that reason I believe women have to be given the chance to be largely responsible for abortion laws.

Giving my girlfriend the final decision is not passing off the responsibility. Personally I'm not into having my own children but I'd be slow to consider abortion. My girlfriend has made it clear she would definitely have an abortion at this current point in time. I'm fine with that. I'll absolutely **** my pants if she tells me she is pregnant and is keeping it in the end but I'd support her decision. I wont be involved in forcing here hand either way. And yes, god help any child of mine. My father was absolutely useless. And he's passed his lack of paternal instinct on to me. I feel absolutely no need to define my life by being a father. Today, if you take all the precautions then the risk of having an unwanted baby is pretty damn small. If your taking the male pill properly, she's taking the female pill properly and your using condoms properly, all at the same time, then you want to be the most unlucky fcuker on the planet to end up with a child.

ted1 · 24-06-2013 12:49AM

You talk about risk, but realistically there is very very little risk bodies were designed to give birth and carry babies to term, I think you just cowarding out of making a desicion and if your not capable of making a desicion or having a say you shouldn't be having sex.

TireeTerror · 24-06-2013 01:02AM

How about a woman being able to have an abortion without any suicide risk, without any risk to their health and without any panels deliberating if any procedure should go ahead.

How about an abortion clinic where someone can go and have an abortion with a reasonably quick consultation period with a qualified nurse, where the only reason for the abortion is because they dont want to have a child for ANY reason they choose.

There is a weird attitude to abortion in Ireland. People going mental about things, acting as if a foetus has legal rights, as if some innocent life is being murdered. People really need to get a grip on things. The planet is becoming more and more over-populated, so I think we can lay off the drama about an abortion. Its absolutely nothing. Its not like they are murdering babies that have been born, its an embryo/foetus, a squidgy substance resembling nothing with conscience.

B0jangles · 24-06-2013 01:04AM

ted1 wrote: »

You talk about risk, but realistically there is very very little risk bodies were designed to give birth and carry babies to term, I think you just cowarding out of making a desicion and if your not capable of making a desicion or having a say you shouldn't be having sex.

I think you need to do some reading on the risks women face in going through pregnancy and giving birth; humans are surprisingly ill-designed for it.

Consider the fact that most mammals move around with their spines horizontal, thus the birth canal is also horizontal, with no danger of the baby falling out. When the time comes to give birth, they can have some fairly gentle contractions and pop out the baby.

Humans on the other hand started to move around vertically. Our babies essentially float above their eventual exit. An exit that has to adapt from being a watertight seal to being an exit capable of ejecting a seven to twelve pound baby in a matter of hours.

Fun times for everyone.

TireeTerror · 24-06-2013 01:08AM

Did you know that in the US, having an abortion is 14 times safer than actually giving birth!

ted1 · 24-06-2013 01:55AM

B0jangles wrote: »

I think you need to do some reading on the risks women face in going through pregnancy and giving birth; humans are surprisingly ill-designed for it.

Consider the fact that most mammals move around with their spines horizontal, thus the birth canal is also horizontal, with no danger of the baby falling out. When the time comes to give birth, they can have some fairly gentle contractions and pop out the baby.

Humans on the other hand started to move around vertically. Our babies essentially float above their eventual exit. An exit that has to adapt from being a watertight seal to being an exit capable of ejecting a seven to twelve pound baby in a matter of hours.

Fun times for everyone.

Rather than dramatise pregnancy please give some proven facts and figures.
As a percentile how many 12 pound babies are there ? You far more likely to get a premature baby at 5 lbs or less were the risk is on the baby.

In the western works there is currently very little risk to the mother.

ted1 · 24-06-2013 01:58AM

TireeTerror wrote: »

Did you know that in the US, having an abortion is 14 times safer than actually giving birth!

And in the US looking left before you cross the road is a hundred times safer, but the issue isn't what is safer ( although you havn't given a citation do its hard to believe you)
It's about the right to an abortion.

Obliq · 24-06-2013 10:28AM

ted1 wrote: »

Rather than dramatise pregnancy please give some proven facts and figures.
As a percentile how many 12 pound babies are there ? You far more likely to get a premature baby at 5 lbs or less were the risk is on the baby.

In the western works there is currently very little risk to the mother.

Is there a reason you now want to literally "weigh up" the risk of childbirth? What's that all about? Nobody is fcuking dramatising pregnancy - here's a fact though. Giving birth is the most god-awful, unforgiving (up to, and more) 36 hours of your life (until you do it again), and it's only redeeming feature is the (healthy, we hope) baby. The biggest risks to women AFAI remember, are hemorrhaging and infection.

There are many ways you can die in childbirth even now, but modern science is great and you're right, it's very low. Maternal deaths rates here are not counted in the same way as other countries though, so you're probably better off checking another country's rates for a rough idea.

What has your question got to do with the fact that we need abortion services in Ireland and we haven't got them?

smiley_face400 · 24-06-2013 10:38AM

ted1 wrote: »

In the western world there is currently very little risk to the mother.

Very little, not zero. There should at least be protocols in place that look after the life of the mother as well as that of the child meaning that in some cases an abortion should be allowed. The current extreme pro life crowd sometimes seem to forget that the mother is a living person too and her life is just as important as that of the child.

At the end of the day it's another person's body and they should be able to do what they want with it. Although that doesn't mean I totally agree with it (before I get flamed for that statement)

dharma200 · 24-06-2013 10:39AM

Women should be able to access termination. However I have to respond to your fact that childbirth "is the most god-awful, unforgiving (up to, and more) 36 hours of your life (until you do it again)"

Having given birth three times, twice on the bedroom floor with no pain releif whatsoever, I have to say that this is not the case in all births. Infact I had little or no what I can decribe as pain in my two home births due to well managed and informed practice. I just wanted to mention that childbirth does not have to be the excruciating experience we witness on the tv etc.

Apart from that, I should imaging the most painful and traumatising experience for any woman is to be forced to carry a child that she does not want. Forced pregnancy is inexcusable, the fact over 5000 women per year travel to the uk for terminations, like irelands dirty little secret and the fact these terminations place women into poverty etc. The bill in ireland does not go far enough for women, I feel if you dont beleive in abortion then dont get one, but what I or anyone else choses to do in the case of unwanted pregnancy.

lazygal · 24-06-2013 10:41AM

Pregnancy is risky. Labour is risky. Childbirth is risky. The aftermath of all three is risky. Which is why its something that should never be forced on any girl or woman. The physical and mental side effects can appear years later. I know women still suffering physically years later after bad tears during labour, or who don't want to have a second child because of the crippling post natal depression suffered after a birth. In fact, of the women I know who've had children, non escaped with zero side effects. Even my mother only told me of some of the things she went through during and after childbirth after I had my own child.

ted1 · 24-06-2013 10:46AM

Obliq wrote: »

Is there a reason you now want to literally "weigh up" the risk of childbirth? What's that all about? Nobody is fcuking dramatising pregnancy - here's a fact though. Giving birth is the most god-awful, unforgiving (up to, and more) 36 hours of your life (until you do it again), and it's only redeeming feature is the (healthy, we hope) baby. The biggest risks to women AFAI remember, are hemorrhaging and infection.

There are many ways you can die in childbirth even now, but modern science is great and you're right, it's very low. Maternal deaths rates here are not counted in the same way as other countries though, so you're probably better off checking another country's rates for a rough idea.

What has your question got to do with the fact that we need abortion services in Ireland and we haven't got them?

I am not sure what happened but thr post I was replying to was changed, the original post went on about carting babies that weigh 4 to 12 lbs

Obliq · 24-06-2013 10:51AM

dharma200 wrote: »

Women should be able to access termination. However I have to respond to your fact that childbirth "is the most god-awful, unforgiving (up to, and more) 36 hours of your life (until you do it again)"

Having given birth three times, twice on the bedroom floor with no pain releif whatsoever, I have to say that this is not the case in all births. Infact I had little or no what I can decribe as pain in my two home births due to well managed and informed practice. I just wanted to mention that childbirth does not have to be the excruciating experience we witness on the tv etc.

Apart from that, I should imaging the most painful and traumatising experience for any woman is to be forced to carry a child that she does not want. Forced pregnancy is inexcusable, the fact over 5000 women per year travel to the uk for terminations, like irelands dirty little secret and the fact these terminations place women into poverty etc. The bill in ireland does not go far enough for women, I feel if you dont beleive in abortion then dont get one, but what I or anyone else choses to do in the case of unwanted pregnancy.

Totally fair enough! Yeah, I suppose saying it's a harsh experience was in response to Ted speaking about it as if it's nothing - a mere walk in the park. My two experiences of childbirth were welcome, so the pain (also no pain relief whatsoever) was less traumatic (but still overwhelming - it IS an overwhelming physical experience, no two ways about that). I can't imagine how a woman would feel in being forced to go through it.

Obliq · 24-06-2013 10:58AM

ted1 wrote: »

I am not sure what happened but thr post I was replying to was changed, the original post went on about carting babies that weigh 4 to 12 lbs

Whatever. Believe me, pregnancy and giving birth is quite a dramatic experience. Please don't belittle it. It's something that a woman MUST be given the CHOICE to experience.

eviltwin · 24-06-2013 11:07AM

Pregnancy is natural but that doesn't mean it comes risk free. In fact it can be argued that our western lifestyle is actually making pregnancy more of a risk than ever before for some women.

I had relatively easy pregnancies, I had pre eclampsia on both of them so was constantly being monitored and in both cases ended up having to have inductions because the risk to my health was so great. I consider myself one of the lucky ones.

My sister had SPD for her pregnancy and was on crutches for most of it. She's fine now but there are some women who never fullly recover from that.

Even my easy pregnancy wasn't without its issues, constant heartburn from 5 months on that made it impossible to sleep, carpel tunnel syndrome for the last month that meant I could barely hold a pen, I couldn't even sign my own admission forms when I went to give birth, pelvic damage that means I now suffer from stress incontinance....

Its hard enough to reconcile those things when the baby you are carrying is wanted and you have the knowledge you will have a baby at the end of it to get you through. When you have to deal with that knowing you are in that position because you can't access abortion is cruel.

It upsets me greatly how little we think of women that we can just dismiss nine months of their live in this way.

Obliq · 24-06-2013 11:13AM

eviltwin wrote: »

It upsets me greatly how little we think of women that we can just dismiss nine months of their live in this way.

...AND the rest. That's including the women who perhaps did not want to add to their already existing family, but were forced to by financial (or other) constraints.

eviltwin · 24-06-2013 11:19AM

Obliq wrote: »

...AND the rest. That's including the women who perhaps did not want to add to their already existing family, but were forced to by financial (or other) constraints.

I can't my head around it. You listen to people and the comments are so patronising. I'm sick hearing "you'll never regret having a baby" or "once you hold it you'll fall in love". Bull. I'm the product of a mother who never wanted children but who had four because it was the norms of the time. We grew up bearing the brunt of her resentment and it made for a very difficult childhood.

What really bothers me is there is no suggestion or desire from groups like YD to expand pregnancy counselling or to bring in any kind of system that will help women who are forced by the current system to have babies they don't really want. If as a State we force women to have babies they don't want don't we have an obligation to give them access to any kind of support they need to help them deal with the mental trauma that will cause?

Obliq · 24-06-2013 11:25AM

eviltwin wrote: »

What really bothers me is there is no suggestion or desire from groups like YD to expand pregnancy counselling or to bring in any kind of system that will help women who are forced by the current system to have babies they don't really want.

Well, this is nice :mad: Here's the latest suggestion from a YD supporter.

Helpful, aren't they?

TireeTerror · 24-06-2013 11:38AM

Obliq wrote: »

Well, this is nice :mad: Here's the latest suggestion from a YD supporter.

Helpful, aren't they?

That really is the most ridiculous thing Ive seen. Likening abortion to murder. Abortion means nothing to me, I dont think of it any different than going to have a gall stone removed.

Its not got a conscience.

Next they will be wanting to make masturbation illegal, think of all the millions of baby sperm dying for personal gratification!!! Horror, murderers, how could you!

What I think is even more disgusting than all of this, is that a Government of a country, or other people, think they have any right to decide what someone does with their body. They should mind their own business.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

Comments