Eamon Gilmore thinks it's "reasonable" to target Special needs students?

Flex · 21-06-2013 01:26PM

Cuts have to be made, thats the fact of the matter. Taxes also have to raise. We're nearly at the end of the budget correction, 2 more budgets and we should be back to being balanced, with any luck a strong recovery in the global economy may also occur and help pick us up further.

On a side note, I notice that the most vocal critics of the government in this thread for considering cutting spending to close the deficit are for the most part tax evaders. The usual self-righteous hypocrisy; want to be seen to condemn cuts in government services, but under no circumstances are they willing to pay for them. Pay your taxes and perhaps the government will have more room for maneuver regards cutting its spending (awaiting the usual chorus of "Dhe Banks tuk dhe munny! and dhe forrin gamblurs!!!!")

noodler · 21-06-2013 01:34PM

SamHall wrote: »

Jesus wept.

Did he though?

Did he really?

token101 · 21-06-2013 01:35PM

SamHall wrote: »

They have essentially disregarded the Proclamation’s pledge to cherish all the children of the nation equally.

Surely if mainstream students have faced cuts then cutting special needs education would doing exactly that? Treating everyone equally?

conorhal · 21-06-2013 01:35PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Is that the case though? Particularly in respect of the people. I'd consider t really to be largely a matter of acceptance. Most people accept (not like) that public spending must be cut and revenue must be raised to bridge the gap in the public finances.

In my view you can't really get around that, and I have said this before on here, but really, in this country we haven't really seen hardship at a large scale. You should see Greece (I mean actual everyday life in Greece, not media coverage) and see the impact of cuts and tax raising measures there at a large scale.

Times are difficult, there's no doubt about it and even depressing a lot of the time, but really, we aren't doing too bad in general considering the economic environment we are in.

Oh there's no denying that Greece has slid in my opinion into the status of a 3rd world nation.
I, like most rational people, accept that cuts need to be made, but is it too much to ask that the government be honest about the cuts they are making, where they are making them and why? Any government that stands there telling you, bold as brass that black is white is really showing you what absolute contempt they have for you and how stupid they really think you are.

They can't of course be honest because Labour can't come out and honestly say: we're minimizing cuts to protected sectors and our cronies, so we've decided instead to slash servicesrather then implement anything aproaching real reform, basically what we are doing here is nibbling at the edges of the most vunerable in the hope that nobody will notice that our slice of the pie is untouched.

Weevil · 21-06-2013 01:47PM

[QUOTE=conorhal;85187448

They can't of course be honest because Labour can't come out and honestly say: we're minimizing cuts to protected sectors and our cronies, so we've decided instead to slash servicesrather then implement anything aproaching real reform, basically what we are doing here is nibbling at the edges of the most vunerable in the hope that nobody will notice that our slice of the pie is untouched.[/QUOTE]

I agree 100% that this has been the approach from the start of this government, though many will fall into multiple categories of vulnerability and really struggle to continue. Meanwhile, the so-called low hanging fruit we were told was all gone still hangs ripe and in plain view. Labour really should hang their collective heads in shame.

token101 · 21-06-2013 01:49PM

conorhal wrote: »

Oh there's no denying that Greece has slid in my opinion into the status of a 3rd world nation.
I, like most rational people, accept that cuts need to be made, but is it too much to ask that the government be honest about the cuts they are making, where they are making them and why? Any government that stands there telling you, bold as brass that black is white is really showing you what absolute contempt they have for you and how stupid they really think you are.

No denying? Did you see Greeks on the Trocaire box this year did you? Get a grip FFS.

conorhal wrote: »

They can't of course be honest because Labour can't come out and honestly say: we're minimizing cuts to protected sectors and our cronies, so we've decided instead to slash servicesrather then implement anything aproaching real reform, basically what we are doing here is nibbling at the edges of the most vunerable in the hope that nobody will notice that our slice of the pie is untouched.

What cronies??? Do you mean the PS unions??? The ones they've battled for over two years??? What slice of the pie??? What are you talking about??? Are you talking about things like government cars and suit allowances and printer ink? If you're after real reform, the biggest government spend is welfare. There's no avoiding cuts to it. Britain is talking about cutting welfare and they pay what, 50 pound a week as a basic? We pay almost triple that as a basic plus the extras. But that would cutting the most vulnerable, wouldn't it?

Knine · 21-06-2013 01:55PM

token101 wrote: »

Surely if mainstream students have faced cuts then cutting special needs education would doing exactly that? Treating everyone equally?

Cutting the resource hours will mean the difference between attending mainstream school or special needs school for many. Which do you think will cost more in the long run?

Uriel. · 21-06-2013 01:57PM

conorhal wrote: »

Oh there's no denying that Greece has slid in my opinion into the status of a 3rd world nation.
I, like most rational people, accept that cuts need to be made, but is it too much to ask that the government be honest about the cuts they are making, where they are making them and why? Any government that stands there telling you, bold as brass that black is white is really showing you what absolute contempt they have for you and how stupid they really think you are.

They can't of course be honest because Labour can't come out and honestly say: we're minimizing cuts to protected sectors and our cronies, so we've decided instead to slash servicesrather then implement anything aproaching real reform, basically what we are doing here is nibbling at the edges of the most vunerable in the hope that nobody will notice that our slice of the pie is untouched.

As a matter of interest, what sectors and cronies are being protected?

Reform is badly needed across many portfolios and I agree with you on this and I believe reform implementation needs to be stepped up.

However, reform generally, irrespective of the nature and/or sector in which it is to be carried out is a long-term matter and, to be done correctly with long-lasting sustainable benefits needs to be done carefully and in full consultation with stakeholders (and agreement in as much as is possible).

Obviously, the Government have undertaken some reform to date, and more, will hopefully follow as the process develops, but reform while right at the top of the priority list (IMO), does not address shorter term shortfalls that require spending cuts/revenue raising measures immediately.

Anyone · 21-06-2013 01:59PM

SamHall wrote: »

They have essentially disregarded the Proclamation’s pledge to cherish all the children of the nation equally.

I think you need to learn the meaning of equally.

CruelCoin · 21-06-2013 02:33PM

SamHall wrote: »

They have essentially disregarded the Proclamation’s pledge to cherish all the children of the nation equally.

You answered your own question there.

Were we really to cherish all children equally we would have a same hours/teachers-to-staff ratio/expenditure for every child, special needs or not.

That special needs children receive better cases of all of these, it's clearly skewed one way.

Cutting it a little more towards centre actually achieves the proclamations exact words better than leaving it as it is.

CruelCoin · 21-06-2013 02:37PM

FoxT wrote: »

and excludes those at the other end of the spectrum, who are equally as valuable.

-FoxT

I would agree with that.

Gifted children receive little to no support in this country, often having to emigrate to get the schooling their talent cannot avail of here.
And then they don't come back, loss to the country.

allibastor · 21-06-2013 03:09PM

Gerry T wrote: »

Just playing devils advocate, I myself have a child with dyslexia and has resource teacher support and its great that she gets this help.

But the education sector is seeing budget cuts, because the country doesn't have as much money to go around. So everywhere gets cut. My child gets less support now than before so we have ended up paying for out of school education support ourselves, which we struggle to pay.

Just because special needs children need additional help doesn't mean that they can get it. Why don't teachers take a big pay cut, then the school system could pay for additional teachers. Put the school system on a semester system and teachers could work a 9-5 365 with 25 days holiday for the same pay. Then each student would get far more contact hours. I just don't see why a minority group can cry that they are being picked on. They are not -- everyone is being picked on WE DON'T HAVE THE MONEY. I don't think its reasonable to take the position that being a minority group that's a good enough excuse to expect special treatment i.e. you don't get a budget cut.

It would be great to see the education system properly funded, each child deserves the chance to develop to their full potential. Society as a whole will benefit from that. One way of looking is the opportunity is there, but parents are possibly going to have to pay for it themselves.

I would agree with you, being a person that has dyslexia there was not enough done in school to help with it. For years i was branded a trouble maker child. in fact i had genius IQ and was bord all the time in class. But not until I was in third year in secondary school did someone actually cop it. Was asked a maths question and was able to spit out answers with ease, able to do a test with just a pencilwhile others needed calculators. In english was able to read and understand most things before anyone else.
found most of school terrible cause i went so long being able to do everything with ease that i never learned how to study or work for it.

moving to nowadays I see with my own daughter who has very high IQ that she is not challanged at all in school, most nights she does homework a year or three ahead of her now. The class she is in has a full time SNA and a partime one, but no one is there to help the smarter kids. they have 2 VERY disriptive kids in the class with learning problems. they get a good bit of help, but are still a drain on the main class.

There is no help for smarter kids at all.

Boombastic · 21-06-2013 03:52PM

allibastor wrote: »

I would agree with you, being a person that has dyslexia there was not enough done in school to help with it. For years i was branded a trouble maker child. in fact i had genius IQ and was bord all the time in class. But not until I was in third year in secondary school did someone actually cop it. Was asked a maths question and was able to spit out answers with ease, able to do a test with just a pencilwhile others needed calculators. In english was able to read and understand most things before anyone else.
found most of school terrible cause i went so long being able to do everything with ease that i never learned how to study or work for it.

moving to nowadays I see with my own daughter who has very high IQ that she is not challanged at all in school, most nights she does homework a year or three ahead of her now. The class she is in has a full time SNA and a partime one, but no one is there to help the smarter kids. they have 2 VERY disriptive kids in the class with learning problems. they get a good bit of help, but are still a drain on the main class.

There is no help for smarter kids at all.

That has more to do with teachers planning / lack of it. Lessons should be differentiated enough to include material which stretches the more able. All the SNA's in the world will not fix that problem.

Zebra3 · 21-06-2013 04:00PM

Why aren't we drastically cutting pensions of former politicians and only allowing them to collect their pensions at 65 instead of going after these kids?

fishy fishy · 21-06-2013 04:08PM

conorhal wrote: »

Ta, the ability of Gilmore and this whole government in general to talk out of both sides of their mouth enfuriates me, as does the fact that the Irish media and public swallow his BS so unquestioningly. It seems that practicing guile on the Irish people is like stealing candy from disabled babies, the only area in which Glib-more is adept.
He spins so fast in fact, that if we could just find some way to wire that fat fool into the national grid, he may at least finally be of some use to the nation as a source of renewable energy.

I notice that this story about how his spin landed him in trouble yesterday and casued the German negociator to resign from the EU budget negociations seems to have 'disappeared' from the news cycle:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0620/457817-eu-budget-eamon-gilmore/

i can't bear to look at him - he makes my physically sick when I see him and I have to switch channels - and I'm being serious here.

fishy fishy · 21-06-2013 04:09PM

Uriel. wrote: »

Is that the case though? Particularly in respect of the people. I'd consider t really to be largely a matter of acceptance. Most people accept (not like) that public spending must be cut and revenue must be raised to bridge the gap in the public finances.

In my view you can't really get around that, and I have said this before on here, but really, in this country we haven't really seen hardship at a large scale. You should see Greece (I mean actual everyday life in Greece, not media coverage) and see the impact of cuts and tax raising measures there at a large scale.

Times are difficult, there's no doubt about it and even depressing a lot of the time, but really, we aren't doing too bad in general considering the economic environment we are in.

please change the "we" to "I" . You may not be doing too bad but don't talk for the rest of the people in the country. There are plenty who are struggling and going through hell.

allibastor · 21-06-2013 05:07PM

Boombastic wrote: »

That has more to do with teachers planning / lack of it. Lessons should be differentiated enough to include material which stretches the more able. All the SNA's in the world will not fix that problem.

The point is it is hard to plan a class when some students find it hard to keep up with basics. It's all about not being left behind in school, but there is no effort to work with the kids who are far ahead .

The use if a SNA does help with that as the main teacher does not have to debit so much time to kids who have trouble learning the alphabet, the SNA can give them more detailed help and more one to one tuition on the failing subjects

bgrizzley · 21-06-2013 09:23PM

conorhal wrote: »

I don't even think that it's entirely the cuts that are prompting the outrage, but the barefaced manner in which they are spun, cut's? What cuts?.

If Glib-more's pants bust into flame, he'd calmly stand there telling you that they were not in fact on fire, but becoming chemically altered as part of a 'transformation process',and even though his pants were now melted to his lardy arse, the fact that they are still keeping it covered means that they are still effectively functioning as trousers.

I can't understand why we so blithely accept the spin they produce.

im still laughing...

muckisluck · 22-06-2013 04:51PM

allibastor wrote: »

moving to nowadays I see with my own daughter who has very high IQ that she is not challanged at all in school, most nights she does homework a year or three ahead of her now. The class she is in has a full time SNA and a partime one, but no one is there to help the smarter kids. they have 2 VERY disriptive kids in the class with learning problems. they get a good bit of help, but are still a drain on the main class.

There is no help for smarter kids at all.

SNAs are only given to cater for care needs of children- not educational. If your child has a care need I'm sure you can make application for help with this in the same manner as the "2 VERY disriptive kids in the class with learning problems" that you refer to above. No child is entitled to help with their educational school work from an SNA.

Eamon Gilmore thinks it's "reasonable" to target Special needs students?

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