Discussion thread for those who've read all the books?

Witcher · 18-06-2013 01:27AM

Brian? wrote: »

I can't see any other ending. The whole series is building towards a confrontation between fire and ice. It is called "A Song of Fire and Ice" after all.

On one side we have The Others and opposing them there's who? The dragons were brought back for a reason, it seems obvious to me it was to fight the Others, i.e. be the fire.

It's too obvious, the Dany/dragon storyline is too much of a red herring for it to be the endgame.

Brian? · 18-06-2013 01:52AM

Blay wrote: »

It's too obvious, the Dany/dragon storyline is too much of a red herring for it to be the endgame.

I can't agree. If the series has a central character it's Dany.

The 2nd tier would be Bran, Jon, Arya and Tyrion.

These 5 will all be involved in the endgame.

The endgame isn't taking the Iron throne, it's defeating the ancient enemy of men: The Others and whatever power is behind them.

Paddy Cow · 18-06-2013 01:59AM

Gbear wrote: »

Tyrion could be given Casterly Rock for serving Dany. So the Lannisters would endure, to a degree at least.

I agree that if that happened they would endure to a degree but they would be nowhere near as powerful as they are now.

Blay wrote: »

Too much of a 'happy Targaryens together' ending. Can't see Dany ever making it to Westeros, her army is too big to survive the coming winter and that situation only sets up another Dance of the Dragons scenario.

Dany won't make it to Westeros? :eek: Of couse she will. She is one of the strongest characters along with Arya. No matter how wrong things have gone, she has always found a way to comeback.

Blay wrote: »

Wouldn't be a good idea for her to align herself with someone that's a known kinslayer and an admitted kingslayer albeit incorrectly.

It's highly likely that she meets Tyrion long before she makes it to Westeros and has to worry about how people will percieve her alliance with him. Her father was known as the mad king and was hated by many before he was killed, yet she is still hell bent on making a claim to the throne so I doubt she is worried about what the people of Westeros think. She is not as naive as Viserys to think that she will be welcomed with open arms and is astute enough to know that connetions are just as valuable as armies (something Robb missed which cost him his life).

Dany's saving grace will probably be that by the time she reaches Westeros the whole place will be in the middle of winter, starving and war torn and perhaps overrun with white walkers. She might be the one who can restore law and order, with a little help from her dragons.

Witcher · 18-06-2013 02:07AM

Paddy Cow wrote: »

Dany won't make it to Westeros? :eek: Of couse she will. She is one of the strongest characters along with Arya. No matter how wrong things have gone, she has always found a way to comeback.

It's highly likely that she meets Tyrion long before she makes it to Westeros and has to worry about how people will percieve her alliance with him. Her father was known as the mad king and was hated by many before he was killed, yet she is still hell bent on making a claim to the throne so I doubt she is worried about what the people of Westeros think. She is not as naive as Viserys to think that she will be welcomed with open arms and is astute enough to know that connetions are just as valuable as armies (something Robb missed which cost him his life).

Dany's saving grace will probably be that by the time she reaches Westeros the whole place will be in the middle of winter, starving and war torn and perhaps overrun with white walkers. She might be the one who can restore law and order, with a little help from her dragons.

You wouldn't be welcomed on Westeros.org:pac: Dany's chances of ever coming to Westeros are almost universally dismissed on the forum there, I can't help but agree with them really. Dany swooping in with her fancy dragons to save the day is too straighforward and 'nice' for ASoIaF. GRRM doesn't really do 'obvious' storylines..Dany and her dragons arriving to save the day would be just that.

There's a good quote from GRRM that addresses how he runs with expectations etc;

"It was always my intention: to play
with the reader’s expectations. Before I was a
writer I was a voracious reader and I am still,
and I have read many, many books with very
predictable plots. As a reader, what I seek is a
book that delights and surprises me. I want to
not know what is gonna happen. For me, that’s
the essence of storytelling and for this reason I
want my readers to turn the pages with
increasing fever: to know what happens next.
There are a lot of expectations, mainly in the
fantasy genre, which you have the hero and he
is the chosen one, and he is always protected
by his destiny. I didn’t want it for my books."

Sleepy · 18-06-2013 09:25AM

Brian? wrote: »

I can't see any other ending. The whole series is building towards a confrontation between fire and ice. It is called "A Song of Fire and Ice" after all.

On one side we have The Others and opposing them there's who? The dragons were brought back for a reason, it seems obvious to me it was to fight the Others, i.e. be the fire.

And since when has a song been composed of instruments clashing rather than harmonising?

The Ragnarök theory is the one that makes most sense to me as an overall arch at this stage: http://gameofthronesandnorsemythology.blogspot.ie/2013/05/ragnarok-song-of-ice-fire.html

This would split the characters into "good" and "evil" as such:

Gods
Odin - Aerys Targaryen
Thor - Robert Baratheon
Tyr - Jaime Lannister
Freyr - Walder Frey
Heimdallr - Samwell Tarly
Frigg - Cersei Lannister
Freyja - Margaery Tyrell
Idunn - Sansa Stark
Njördr - Theon Greyjoy
Kvasir - Jojen Reed
Baldr - Joffrey Baratheon
Vidarr - Tommen Baratheon

Giants
Loki - Bloodraven
Fenrir - Bran Stark
Jormungandr - Danaerys Targaryen
Hel - Melisandre
Surtr - Jon Snow
Hati - Arya Stark
Fafnir - Tyrion Lannister
Garmr - Rickon Stark
Hrym - Victarion Greyjoy

Tom.D.BJJ · 18-06-2013 10:02AM

I think we'll see Jon travel north of the wall, meet Bran and claim the sword Dark Sister from Bloodraven. Longclaw will be given back to the Mormonts, hopefully Jorah symbolising his honour.

Maybe Jon will end up facing Aegon who possesses Blackfyre, but i doubt it.

PS: According to the known chapters from TWOW,

Aegon has already taken Storms End.

Mr Freeze · 18-06-2013 10:07AM

Re: Jon Snow's stabbing.

It said, he didn't feel the 4th knife.

That leaves us with a few options:
1. He was dead, and never felt the 4th knife, and they continued stabbing him.
2. He passed out, and never felt the 4th knife, and they kept stabbing, and is dead.
3. He never felt the 4th knife because there wasn't one.
4. Didn't feel it, because he warged into Ghost.

I honestly hate the warging idea, but it is the most likely with all the foreshadowing of warging on death.

I would prefer if there wasn't a 4th knife, and that Tormund and co, jumped in and saved him, slaughtering the Nights Watch in the process. And Jon survives.

stevenmu · 18-06-2013 11:44AM

Brian? wrote: »

My theory is that Dany has 3 Dragons, she needs 2 other Targaryens to ride them; Jon and Aegon will do nicely.

That does seem to be the generally held theory alright, but I don't think it's going to be Jon and Aegon. For one thing it seems to be far too obvious, and we all know how big a troll GRRM is. For another thing, I think that there's more Targaryens out there to use.

There is a rumour that Tywin's wife Joanna was raped by Aerys Targaryen, and some people think this could mean Tyrion is actually a Targaryen. But, I think it becomes very clear in the books that Tyrion is much more like Tywin than the others. I think it's far far more likely that Jaime and Cersei are in fact Targaryens, especially when you consider the incest, and doubly so that the incest produced another mad king in Joffrey. There are tons of references to a madness in the Targaryen line that pops up every generation or two, and Joffrey definitely fits the bill.

So IMHO, Jaime and Cersei are both Targaryens, but are they ready to be two of the main heroes of the story? They both started out nasty, spiteful and self-absorbed and were more likely to commit atrocities than to help someone else.

Jaime, has largely been redeemed. He started out by throwing Bran out of a window, but through various trials and tortures he has undergone a transformation. I think it's clear now that GRRM intends to use him as a heroic figure, but obviously he didn't want it to be completely straightforward, he wanted someone complicated who grew and developed into a hero. I think he's a clear fit to ride a dragon against the white walkers and save the realm.

Cersei is less straightforward. I can't remember exactly how things were left with her in the last book, but IIRC it's a bit unclear still if she is going through the same kind of redemption Jaime did. Maybe there isn't much time left and it'll be rushed through, or maybe she won't fully be redeemed but will still ride a dragon to protect her children. It's a bit hard to say what's going on there.

zl1whqvjs75cdy · 18-06-2013 11:56AM

Cersei as a hero? I don't know if I could swallow that. Jamie yes. its been built over three/four books. I know Cersei does everything for her children, or so she claims, but I do not see her bending the knee to Dany and riding Dragons against the white walkers, especially since that would involve probably allying with Stannis since he is currently the main man at the wall.

WE seem to have five large or growing military forces. Dany, Aegon, Stannis, Kings Landing and Dorne. I suppose you could throw the northmen in there but I suspect they will align with Stannis. Dorne seems to be against kings landing, but dragons melted the young Dornish princes face, but maybe Dorne and Dany will align. Even thinking about the various combinations that could happen hurts my head.

I think the war for the throne needs to be sorted first before the final battle with the white walkers. O and what'll happen with the nights watch, and bran and arya? I am so glad I am not writing this book, GRRM has a lot of balls in the air, getting them all sorted in time is going to be tough. Sorry for the ramble, everything on the books is just at a crossroads at the moment so its difficult to know what to focus on.

Mr Freeze · 18-06-2013 12:10PM

stevenmu wrote: »

So IMHO, Jaime and Cersei are both Targaryens, but are they ready to be two of the main heroes of the story? They both started out nasty, spiteful and self-absorbed and were more likely to commit atrocities than to help someone else.

I really don't like that Rape/Targaryen theory, I hope its not the case, and Cersei meets her end sooner rather than later.

donkeyoaty0099 wrote: »

but maybe Dorne and Dany will align. Even thinking about the various combinations that could happen hurts my head.

Looks like Dorne & Aegon/Conningtons armies could align first, and who knows what might happen to them.

I am assuming that the Lannister strength is mostly spent, and their numbers greatly diminished now, and the Tryells make up most of the Kings Landing armies.

Could Kings Landing & Dorne/Aegon/Connington clash long before Danny gets near Westeros? I think so, Meeren is looking like a total disaster at the moment, with a war/siege about to erupt from all sides. Can't see Dany making it back in the next book either.

December2012 · 18-06-2013 12:58PM

If Jamie and Cersei are Targaryans, then it's possible that Myrcella or Tommen could in fact be the one of the heads of the dragon.

Myrcella could also be the young queen to challenge Cersei, and Cersei will be too fixated on Margarey that shell never see it coming!

chickenboy · 18-06-2013 01:17PM

My call for a hidden Targaryen is Varys. The story of his castration didn't really make any sense, why would a wizard pay a large sum of money for a kid to cut when it seems that slaves and orphans are in plentiful supply, particularly across the Narrow Sea. The most obvious explanation is that he was aware of the power of kings blood, and somehow either knew Varys was a Targaryen bastard or else managed to get hold of a legitimate Targaryen somehow.

It would also give some explanation as to why he's been working so hard to get the Targaryen line back onto the throne.

Gbear · 18-06-2013 01:22PM

Blay wrote: »

Wouldn't be a good idea for her to align herself with someone that's a known kinslayer and an admitted kingslayer albeit incorrectly.

Unless they're just going to kill Tyrion (in which case, what was the point?) then I can't see what else is going to happen. She'll take him on as an adviser (and he's a bloody good one).

December2012 wrote: »

If Jamie and Cersei are Targaryans, then it's possible that Myrcella or Tommen could in fact be the one of the heads of the dragon.

Myrcella could also be the young queen to challenge Cersei, and Cersei will be too fixated on Margarey that shell never see it coming!

I'd say she's probably too young. Isn't she only about 9?

I don't think there'll be 3 dragon riders. I reckon 1 dragon will die relatively early doors. Maybe outside Meereen. Wouldn't be massively surprised if Viseryon and Rhaegal went on a rampage killing both the Slavers and Dany's folk. Then Barristan kills 1 and dies in the process.

One of the recurring themes in the books is that things are seldom as they appear - Maybe dragons aren't good and white walkers aren't evil but both are forces of destruction. The same might be said of Rhllor and the Great Other.
The people involved attribute good and bad to each side but the Kings and Lords are to the supernatural forces as peasants are to Kings and lords. Ultimately they're just getting caught in the middle of something way beyond their understanding.

Prophecies are treacherous and not only could they be misinterpreted. They also might just be bull**** on occasion. Having all the prophecies come to pass would be boring.

Sleepy · 18-06-2013 01:37PM

chickenboy wrote: »

My call for a hidden Targaryen is Varys. The story of his castration didn't really make any sense, why would a wizard pay a large sum of money for a kid to cut when it seems that slaves and orphans are in plentiful supply, particularly across the Narrow Sea. The most obvious explanation is that he was aware of the power of kings blood, and somehow either knew Varys was a Targaryen bastard or else managed to get hold of a legitimate Targaryen somehow.

It would also give some explanation as to why he's been working so hard to get the Targaryen line back onto the throne.

That's a great theory. Not sure it will happen but wouldn't be disappointed if it was.

Mr.Prodston · 18-06-2013 01:37PM

Gbear wrote: »

One of the recurring themes in the books is that things are seldom as they appear - Maybe dragons aren't good and white walkers aren't evil but both are forces of destruction. The same might be said of Rhllor and the Great Other.
The people involved attribute good and bad to each side but the Kings and Lords are to the supernatural forces as peasants are to Kings and lords. Ultimately they're just getting caught in the middle of something way beyond their understanding.

Prophecies are treacherous and not only could they be misinterpreted. They also might just be bull**** on occasion. Having all the prophecies come to pass would be boring.

This is my school of thought on the matter. We view the dragons as "good" because Dany is their mother and we have followed her trials and tribulations. The dragons have been wreaking havoc and destruction killing innocents and Dany has little control over them. Look at what happened Quentyn (I still think that was hilarious in a Ramsey way of thinking :pac: ) This fabled horn is the only way they can be tamed for certain (or Bran, but I haven't thought enough about that plus not sure if they'd even be on the same side) and that could be a myth too.

We are not familiar with the Others and the few times we have seen them they have been up to no good. However as we have seen/know so little we really can't make an informed decision on them yet. I really believe TWOW will fill us in to some degree on their motives or at least just spend a little time with them. Perhaps the reason they kill humans/mankind is because they have been trapped against their will way up North of the wall and just don't simply want to be there (slaves to the north? :pac:). Sam was doing well tracing their history before Jon sent him to Oldtown so somebody will probably see a few strands of paper and put it together of Sam will find someing himself down there.

Duckworth_Luas · 18-06-2013 01:48PM

So Aegon, Tyrion, Jon Snow, Jaime, Cercei, Varys, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are all Targaryens!

Are there any non-Targaryens in Westeros?

18-06-2013 01:49PM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

So Aegon, Tyrion, Jon Snow, Jaime, Cercei, Varys, Joffrey, Myrcella and Tommen are all Targaryens!

Are there any non-Targaryens in Westeros?

Hodor

Duckworth_Luas · 18-06-2013 01:53PM

Deleted User wrote: »

Hodor

I was going to suggest Hodor but then who is Hodor's father? Obviously a Targaryen!

18-06-2013 01:55PM

I'll probably die laughing if by some amazing outside chance all the answers are somehow connected to Hodor.

Tom.D.BJJ · 18-06-2013 01:59PM

Duckworth_Luas wrote: »

I was going to suggest Hodor but then who is Hodor's father? Obviously a Targaryen!

Old Nan doing the giddy-up with a Targ, maybe Bloodraven on his way to the wall :pac:

Son0vagun · 18-06-2013 05:13PM

Hodor is obviously a descendant of Ducan the Tall.

December2012 · 18-06-2013 06:07PM

chickenboy wrote: »

My call for a hidden Targaryen is Varys. The story of his castration didn't really make any sense, why would a wizard pay a large sum of money for a kid to cut when it seems that slaves and orphans are in plentiful supply, particularly across the Narrow Sea. The most obvious explanation is that he was aware of the power of kings blood, and somehow either knew Varys was a Targaryen bastard or else managed to get hold of a legitimate Targaryen somehow.

It would also give some explanation as to why he's been working so hard to get the Targaryen line back onto the throne.

Where do you think Varys has been during Book 3 and Book 6?

username123 · 18-06-2013 06:46PM

Son0vagun wrote: »

Hodor is obviously a descendant of Ducan the Tall.

No, Hodor has giants blood in him. Brienne is a descendant of Ser Duncan the Tall.

Paddy Cow · 18-06-2013 08:47PM

Blay wrote: »

You wouldn't be welcomed on Westeros.org:pac: Dany's chances of ever coming to Westeros are almost universally dismissed on the forum there, I can't help but agree with them really. Dany swooping in with her fancy dragons to save the day is too straighforward and 'nice' for ASoIaF. GRRM doesn't really do 'obvious' storylines..Dany and her dragons arriving to save the day would be just that.

There's a good quote from GRRM that addresses how he runs with expectations etc;

I don't think Dany will arrive and save the day but I do think she will make it to Westeros. I wouldn't be surprised if she didn't survive the wars but she will have a big part to play.

kksaints · 18-06-2013 09:15PM

Kinda hope Jon is actually dead after being attacked and doesnt come back. Didnt really like the fact that a few characters have come back from the dead. I also think it would be funny if Jon wasnt the Rhagars son and was actually the son of the Three Sisters fishwoman.

Brian? · 19-06-2013 01:07AM

December2012 wrote: »

Where do you think Varys has been during Book 3 and Book 6?

There's only 5 books isn't there?

Did they split one up for later editions?

December2012 · 19-06-2013 01:19AM

Brian? wrote: »

There's only 5 books isn't there?

Did they split one up for later editions?

I meant As in the end of Book 3 and the start of Book 6 (or the end of Book 5).

SK1979 · 19-06-2013 08:01PM

kksaints wrote: »

Kinda hope Jon is actually dead after being attacked and doesnt come back. Didnt really like the fact that a few characters have come back from the dead. I also think it would be funny if Jon wasnt the Rhagars son and was actually the son of the Three Sisters fishwoman.

I actually think John will be dead. He was one of my favourite characters at one stage but I can't warm to him anymore. Besides I just think martin will let him die to piss people off. I'd imagine he reads all the various fan sites and is week capable of changing his plans for the coming books.

Personally I really hope that Arya gets to kill loads of the horrible people in westeros.

Gbear · 19-06-2013 08:56PM

SK1979 wrote: »

Personally I really hope that Arya gets to kill loads of the horrible people in westeros.

I hope she learns her trade but sets out on her own with her own motives (vengeance). I don't want her to be some random assassin.

December2012 · 19-06-2013 10:29PM

I think Bryndyn Tully might show up in The Vale / Alayne storyline.

Discussion thread for those who've read all the books?

Comments