Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

username123 · 14-06-2013 04:06PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

It usually is though. Not paranoid at all I can assure you.

My experience has been you guys ask a question and when we answer you go, "oh well if thats the case then..." and twist what we have said.

In any case it is not "unwanted" pregnancies that are being addressed in the legislation, it is pregnancies that pose a real, substantial and probable risk to the life or health of the mother. And I have made my view on that clear - if such a risk exists, I do not have a problem.

That doesnt answer my question. No problem, I was interested to know what you thought. You dont wish to share it - thats fine.

MaxWig · 14-06-2013 04:15PM

username123 wrote: »

There are of course extremists on both sides but the original point that I was addressing was made by a poster who asserted that we have to respect the opinion of people who think that abortion is evil and satanic no matter how deranged we think it is.

.

That's democracy for ya!!

username123 · 14-06-2013 04:17PM

MaxWig wrote: »

That's democracy for ya!!

I know. It sucks. Dont ask me what the answer is though!

OldNotWIse · 14-06-2013 04:17PM

username123 wrote: »

That doesnt answer my question. No problem, I was interested to know what you thought. You dont wish to share it - thats fine.

Your question is irrelevant to the discussion so why would you be interested in my answer?

username123 · 14-06-2013 04:20PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

Your question is irrelevant to the discussion so why would you be interested in my answer?

This has moved off topic and off the original context when I asked you the question. Ive no interest in some kind of "post tennis" on it - I simply asked you a straight question and your first response was to question was I trying to trick you, your second didnt answer what I asked and now youre asking why I asked it.

Lets just drop it eh? I was simply curious, but its not worth the nonsense of the back and forthing.

Gongoozler · 14-06-2013 04:54PM

I went to the table of the anti abortion guys on O Connell St in Dublin just there. I was curious on their stance and as there was one man shouting 'protect innocent women and children' I was also curious to know why women needed protecting. I went to look at the leaflets they were giving out too.

He told me that I should sign their petition because the govt are legalising abortion. I said what,since when, and he went on to question if I follow the news. So I said that what they're legislating for isn't abortion on demand, and he told me it is. I asked where was this information as I'd like to read it, he got flustered and couldn't tell me, and just kept repeating that they are.

So I was looking at the printed leaflets which are actually getting people to sign up to a mailing list, and thought hmmm I wonder where the money is coming from, so I asked him where they get their funding, he said he's not telling me and 'mind your own business'. I looked to the smiley woman that had apppeared to his left, in expectation that she may be embarrassed or apologise for him, but no nothing, all I could say was wow. Im still in shock

That has been typical of the anti abortion side in my experience, ill informed, not making any sense, but loud and determined.

OldNotWIse · 14-06-2013 04:55PM

username123 wrote: »

This has moved off topic and off the original context when I asked you the question. Ive no interest in some kind of "post tennis" on it - I simply asked you a straight question and your first response was to question was I trying to trick you, your second didnt answer what I asked and now youre asking why I asked it.

Lets just drop it eh? I was simply curious, but its not worth the nonsense of the back and forthing.

But you asked me the question in a context where I was actually discussing the legislation...

I assume your "lets just drop it" is an attempt at stopping me from replying.

username123 · 14-06-2013 05:12PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

I assume your "lets just drop it" is an attempt at stopping me from replying.

Youre a very suspicious poster!

You said

I dont (on a personal level) think its ok to travel for one, because I disagree with abortion on a moral level.

Based on the above I asked what you thought the answer to unwanted pregnancy was.

You answered (a) am I trying to trick you (b) didnt answer what I asked and (c) why I was asking you.

I already told you I was simply curious. I am not interested in coaxing a response out of you, Im not your counseller! If you dont want to answer - thats fine.

Now you think Im trying to stop you from replying.

I dont know why you are so suspicious of a straight question, but your responses say a lot more than any answer you could have given to the original perfectly ordinary question.

So once again, lets drop it eh?

clairefontaine · 14-06-2013 05:22PM

Did the girl who this legislation is based on kill herself? What happened to her?

B0jangles · 14-06-2013 05:29PM

She miscarried shortly after the judgement was handed down.

kat.mac · 14-06-2013 06:14PM

OldNotWIse wrote: »

In any case it is not "unwanted" pregnancies that are being addressed in the legislation, it is pregnancies that pose a real, substantial and probable risk to the life or health of the mother. And I have made my view on that clear - if such a risk exists, I do not have a problem.

I have to pick up on this - a risk to the health of the pregnant woman is not included in this legislation. ONLY a risk to her life. An incredibly important distinction.

meeeeh · 14-06-2013 06:16PM

The nut job pro lifers (not all pro life people) are godsend to a debate. More air time they get more damage they do to pro life side. So bring it on.

As for legaslation there is nothing spectacular in it but it is a step in the right direction. I also don't believe that women having an abortion will be treated the same as paedophiles or similar nonsense coming from pro choice side. And hopefully the new legalislation will also leave less space for excuses when there is clear proof of negligence by medical professionals.

Obliq · 14-06-2013 09:56PM

MaxWig wrote: »

Yeah if there's one thing you can say about Ireland, its that society as a whole has a very clear cut, uncomplicated and decisive attitude to abortion

Yeah, that's true. Except it's not "a" clear cut, decisive attitude to abortion, it's a number of clear cut, decisive attitudes to abortion. So what gives?

Will it be the notion of human life "uber alles" - every soul, a voice - Love them both? It goes against nature to kill a tiny human?

Or is it to be the notion that there are many souls, many potentials in nature and not all are kindly treated, but that is nature. Human nature also.

Question: Why not both?

In our constitution at the moment, lies a religiously oriented amendment. If you are educated, then you know how it got in there and the political/social arena at that time (circa 1982/83). As things are today, the same small but influential lobby groups that got the 8th amendment in there on the back of people's votes (before the child abuse scandals were commonly spoken of, and people still agreed with their priests) are giving it a proper go at influencing WHAT WILL BE BROUGHT UP FOR QUESTION. Does that not offend you, as a non-religious person? I think about this more cynically perhaps, but I am a woman. As an Irish woman, I have experience of this RCC control of women and the attempts the church has made to control our reproductive rights.

Are people who hold a more pragmatic but equally moral view also to be catered for in a truly secular country? I understand the reluctance of religious people to give any ground here and make some headway towards allowing abortion in circumstances of great distress, such as rape or TMFR, I actually do (slippery slope, etc.). But when does the middle ground get a say here eh?

Obliq · 14-06-2013 10:01PM

username123 wrote: »

There are of course extremists on both sides but the original point that I was addressing was made by a poster who asserted that we have to respect the opinion of people who think that abortion is evil and satanic no matter how deranged we think it is.

I dont agree with that. I dont have to respect deranged thinking when that thinking impacts me, a woman of child bearing age. Whereas, my thinking, no matter how deranged it may seem to a pro lifer (or indeed may be objectively) - actually has no impact on anyone at all. Im not forcing anyone to have an abortion, they are forcing me to have no choice.

There is a distinct difference there - regardless of whether anyone is being deranged or not.

^^^ That too.

puppieperson · 14-06-2013 10:42PM

Who needs their patronising legislation 1,500 euro an overnight in UK most women will continue to follow this hassle free route as they have done for years. An abortion in this country would be akin to throwing yourself off a bridge.

cdaly_ · 14-06-2013 11:00PM

puppieperson wrote: »

Who needs their patronising legislation 1,500 euro an overnight in UK most women will continue to follow this hassle free route as they have done for years. An abortion in this country would be akin to throwing yourself off a bridge.

Savita needed it. Too late for her though...

spitfireIRL · 15-06-2013 01:35AM

Morag wrote: »

I was listening back to the show last night on 98fm.
There was speakers on from both sides and then people ringing in.
One of them was a guy called Jim and I was staggered by him.
He went on about ripping babies out of bellies and putting them in buckets
and then when one of the other people who had rang in said the word period
he freaked out and called her rude and crude.

That abortion was evil and satanic and it was going against nature, I was gobsmacked by him.
Said that women who have a deliberate abortion prove that there was an EVE!

If anyone wants to listen to it, it's here http://media.98fm.com/listenback/360/thursday/1/

I actually listened to the whole thing. That guy Jim is batsh!t insane.

Obliq · 15-06-2013 07:13AM

spitfireIRL wrote: »

I actually listened to the whole thing. That guy Jim is batsh!t insane.

Very funny though....in a twisted kind of way :P

meeeeh · 15-06-2013 08:55AM

cdaly_ wrote: »

Savita needed it. Too late for her though...

It would be way to simplistic to blame just abortion law for that. It was mentioned on Newstalk that another woman settled with HSE this week. Only in her case same type of complications arose after birth and were not dealt properly. Apparently she needed over ten operations since then. It happened in 2009 in the same hospital.

Don't get me wrong I'm all for the change of law but Savita case shows there are other problems too.

IvyTheTerrible · 15-06-2013 10:44AM

puppieperson wrote: »

Who needs their patronising legislation 1,500 euro an overnight in UK most women will continue to follow this hassle free route as they have done for years. An abortion in this country would be akin to throwing yourself off a bridge.

1500 euro wouldn't be hassle free for me or a lot of women I know.

Justin1982 · 15-06-2013 03:01PM

Just wondering if anyone has some statistics that might answer the below questions. Or where statistics dont exist, maybe have some sort of unofficial estimates or educated guesstimates carried out by womens rights groups in Ireland.

How many Irish women officially travel abroad to have abortion every year?

Is the real number travelling abroad much higher than official records? I would suspect that real number is double the official number.

I suspect that some Irish women are carrying out DIY home abortions or going to underground abortion clinics in the Republic. Any idea of the numbers or how common this is? I suspect that this is a lot more common in Ireland the last ten years due to large amount of immigration from Eastern Europe.

Lingua Franca · 15-06-2013 04:04PM

Off the top of my head: the estimation based on women giving an Irish address in UK clinics is around 4000 a year. Some women use UK addresses to get NHS abortions but those numbers are unknown for obvious reasons. Last year around 1100 doses of the abortion pill were caught and confiscated in the post. No one knows how many slipped through.

IvyTheTerrible · 15-06-2013 04:34PM

Justin1982 wrote: »

Just wondering if anyone has some statistics that might answer the below questions. Or where statistics dont exist, maybe have some sort of unofficial estimates or educated guesstimates carried out by womens rights groups in Ireland.

How many Irish women officially travel abroad to have abortion every year?

Is the real number travelling abroad much higher than official records? I would suspect that real number is double the official number.

I suspect that some Irish women are carrying out DIY home abortions or going to underground abortion clinics in the Republic. Any idea of the numbers or how common this is? I suspect that this is a lot more common in Ireland the last ten years due to large amount of immigration from Eastern Europe.

Genuinely interested: Why would you suspect diy abortion rates are due to a lot of immigration from Eastern Europe?

meeeeh · 15-06-2013 05:42PM

Because we are all dirty feckers without morals.

If I'd need an abortion I'd fly home. It's not overly expensive and it's fairly hassle free. I wouldn't even know where to start looking for a underground abortion clinic. But I'm not from any of the big immigrant communities.

SicklySweet · 15-06-2013 05:56PM

My cousin, albeit 10 years ago, was 17 and pregnant. Learned the baby had anencephaly, which means the baby would be born without a skull. Begged the doctors for an abortion after reading online what would happen to the baba. Refused black and blue. Later on, the babies usually die at birth, this little fighter fought through 12 hours of immense pain before passing on. Which bumholes would seriously allow a mother and a child to go through that amount of pain? This country seriously needs to put up or/and shut up about abortion issues and be there for those who want an abortion. It should be up to the pregnant woman to decide. Being a "Catholic" country shouldn't be the main reason why an abortion should not be allowed.

username123 · 15-06-2013 06:33PM

Lingua Franca wrote: »

Off the top of my head: the estimation based on women giving an Irish address in UK clinics is around 4000 a year. Some women use UK addresses to get NHS abortions but those numbers are unknown for obvious reasons. Last year around 1100 doses of the abortion pill were caught and confiscated in the post. No one knows how many slipped through.

Apparently Denmark, the Netherlands and Germany are also popular destinations but no official records are kept.

Also to add, many Irish women use a UK address in clinics there. The numbers could easily be double.

Lingua Franca · 15-06-2013 11:40PM

I know of women who've had them in Turkey and Spain. Pretty much anywhere to where you can get a regular cheap and fairly short flight, it seems.

meeeeh · 16-06-2013 09:08PM

I don't think numbers overly matter and they are falling in most countries because of the easy availability of contraception and because people are better informed. Tbh if the numbers are very high and if there is high number of teenage pregnancies then the state is doing something wrong.

Morag · 17-06-2013 12:36AM

Justin1982 wrote: »

Just wondering if anyone has some statistics that might answer the below questions. Or where statistics dont exist, maybe have some sort of unofficial estimates or educated guesstimates carried out by womens rights groups in Ireland. How many Irish women officially travel abroad to have abortion every year?

The IFPA have the numbers of women who have traveled to the UK and had abortions in BPAS clinics and gave an irish address from the 80s the numbers are 150,000 women enough to fill the Aviva stadium 3 times over.

http://www.ifpa.ie/Hot-Topics/Abortion/Statistics

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dW0N0w3Pllc

Justin1982 wrote: »

Is the real number travelling abroad much higher than official records?

Yes the IFPA also have some numbers for Holland but, there are Irish women who travel to the UK and give a friends or relatives address in the UK, and then there are women who travel to other countries which we don't have access to those numbers. I know of women who have gone to France and got the abortion pills there.

Justin1982 wrote: »

I would suspect that real number is double the official number.

Honestly I don't know, as it is officially reckoned 12 women a day travel to the UK for abortion, it could it be as high as 20 a day.

Justin1982 wrote: »

I suspect that some Irish women are carrying out DIY home abortions

This is definitely on the rise, with being a choice activist women often tell me they have had an abortion I am open enough about mine and I get people telling me as they've told so few people and feel the need to and they know I am a 'safe' person to be able to tell. These day such women are more likely to tell me they got and used abortion pills then that they have traveled.
It's gone form 1 in 5 women to 3 in 5 women that I encounter.

Justin1982 wrote: »

or going to underground abortion clinics in the Republic.

These are very very rare, it's not worth while doing, the garda and DPP are very strict and it's not worth a medical practitioners lively hood be they a dr or a nurse or midwife to do this.

But there is a type you have not mentioned and that is herbal abortions.
I know of several women who have used those methods, drinking the teas to bring on an early miscarriage. The knowledge is out there among certain communities.

Justin1982 wrote: »

Any idea of the numbers or how common this is? I suspect that this is a lot more common in Ireland the last ten years due to large amount of immigration from Eastern Europe.

I was at the Abortion Papers 2013 symposium last weekend and it was stated that the Dept of Justice has shorted out travel papers for 50 women in the last 12 months who are here as migrants or asylum seekers so that they could travel to the UK for abortions.

But traveling and paying for an abortion is far from cheap and faced wtih it being between 800 to 1,500 and the cost of the abortion pill being less then 100 more and more women are using the pills.

And the proposed legislation for the X Case will means those women can be charged with importing a class A drug and then up to 14 years in prison for the abortion. Anyone who helps them can be also charged and then get up to 14 years.

Which means women who use the pills will be less likely to get the aftercare they need. Be it the 6 weeks health check up or counseling.

These women need to know that, Drs to not have to report to the garda if a woman comes for check up post abortion. http://www.abortionaftercare.ie/abortion-pill
There are clinics and services all around the country, if women are in Dublin I would suggest they go to
femplus http://www.abortionaftercare.ie/find-a-service/femplus-clinic

Tigger99 · 17-06-2013 12:48AM

Morag thank you for all this information. I'm sure it will help some women, in fact will be a lifesaver for them.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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