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Why do men tend to be submissive in relationships?

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  • 14-06-2013 2:24pm
    #1
    Registered Users Posts: 526 ✭✭✭


    So I have wanted to start a discussion on this for quite a while but have never got round to it until now.

    Before I begin, even though this is posted in The Gentlemen's Club, I would openly welcome women's views with interest as to why they believe this phenomenon occurs. I would also be interested to hear if this trend has changed over the years.

    What I am talking about is what is colloquially referred to as 'wearing the trousers' in a relationship.

    I think most sensible people would argue that the best sort of relationship is one where both partners have equal input into decisions and enjoy a healthy, balanced partnership. However, this in practice often does not occur and in my experience, one person is usually (albeit slightly in some cases) dominant. And among my friends and acquaintances, women I would say would be the ones clearly in charge in around 70-80 percent of cases. I know a few where the man is the dominant figure, but they are much rarer. This is obviously taken from a Western Europe perspective, I can't comment on situations in other countries/continents.

    So, why is this? Is it an evolutionary trend that has held constant over decades to ensure solid relationships in addition to a stable background for the children growing up? Or is it biological or sociological in its essence, or even cultural, we all presumably have seen films/TV shows where the quintessential tough-guy gangster/thug type who fears no one, ends up deferring to his wife when she puts her foot down?

    The lazy stereotype in my view is that the woman decides when to have sex, so if the man wants to indulge, he has to keep her sweet. This is nonetheless a weak argument and ignores all variations in sex drive between individuals, plus paints all men as being pathologically weak and incapable of thinking of anything other than fornication. The annoying 'silent treatment' also derives from and is a result of this belief in my opinion.

    Some of my female friends tell me that it is necessary to manipulate the man into doing what they want, because if they don't, the couple will get nothing done. Now I don't necessarily agree with this, again it's lazy stereotyping in my eyes, but it possibly indicates a greater tendency for men to be laid back and content with the status quo. This theory would also be consistent with men who seek out partners that remind them of their mothers, they enjoy a sort of extended childhood, where the girlfriend takes over the previous role of the mother, doing their washing, planning their daily lives, holidays away and so on. I know a couple of relationships like this.

    But of course all men are not laid-back. Some are extremely driven. If we look at purely traditional roles of the man and the woman, this particular dynamic would be more prevalent in previous generations, where the man went out to work and took care of the family finances, whereas the woman dealt with domestic duties. Again I would be interested to hear from others who remember relationships from many years ago, who was in charge exactly.

    Speaking from a male perspective, things certainly change once in a relationship. Your focus tends to switch from your good friends to your girlfriend/partner. (And back again once you split up but that's another story). So I think there is a certain expectation and instinct, both biological and societal for the man then to look after the woman, to concentrate on her and make sure she wants for nothing. The problem is, one can get dangerously close in this instance to putting them on a pedestal. A happy medium of respect without suffocating the person is ideal, but I have seen only too well how easy it is to cross the line. So doing the latter can potentially turn the nicest individual into someone who can on occasion become diva-like.

    A scenario I have witnessed countless times over the years is when a close friend brings out his girlfriend at night in a group situation, everything is going well, until, because of something that she doesn't like, (presumably fairly innocuous) the girlfriend starts making moody faces, goes a bit quiet, the boyfriend leans over, asks what's wrong, gives a few comforting touches, whispers to her something incomprehensible, she nods and next thing we know it's 'Right, we're off, see you soon.' Which usually leads to people rashly jumping to conclusions that the boyfriend here is 'under the thumb,' which may or may not be true. One thing which is very important to remember is that no one really knows what goes on inside relationships except the two involved, so these are just presumptions, even though they could be to a large degree accurate. Again I want to make clear here this is not an attack on all women, simply that anyone who is indulged a lot will be likely to develop certain 'spoilt brat' tendencies, it is merely the case that men tend to be the cause of this more often, whereas women tend to treat their partner in a more 'grounded' fashion.

    Society also tends to favour the woman being the decision-maker, you see constant indirect references to it, the 'I'll have to ask the wife' scenario. Of course to stick up for females here, no one is ever forced into a relationship with a gun to their head. If there are so many men that defer to their girlfriend or wife, there must be a reason for this, ie, that's what they prefer and where they feel most comfortable.

    Unfortunately I feel that on occasion there is an implication that relationships where the man is the dominant partner are in some way abusive, where he is bullying or battering her into submission, which again I think is quite unfair. I believe it's perfectly feasible to have a respectful healthy relationship where the man makes most of the important decisions, as long as he doesn't conduct himself in a supercilious manner and considers the woman's feelings at all times.

    In my own experiences, I'd like to think that most of my previous relationships have been relatively equal, although maybe that is wishful thinking on my part. One girl I went out with, who was otherwise very charming, was extremely stubborn and if ever we had a disagreement, she would act distant (even if it was her fault) until I relented and apologised or whatever. So I suppose you could argue she held the cards there.

    So I am quite interested as to what everyone thinks are the reasons for this phenomenon.


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Comments

  • Registered Users Posts: 17,495 ✭✭✭✭eviltwin


    Speaking for myself and myself only we both make decisions on the big stuff equally and if we don't agree we come to a compromise where we try and meet in the middle. Sometimes things go my way, sometimes they don't. I don't overthink it. Its not a competition.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,612 ✭✭✭Lelantos


    Its called: Wanting a quiet life :)


  • Administrators, Entertainment Moderators, Social & Fun Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 18,722 Admin ✭✭✭✭✭hullaballoo


    It's part of the game of relationships, no?


    I mean, men might appear to be bendy in most situations so that they can have their way when they need it, e.g. I watch stupid Kardashian's from time-to-time so that I get dibs when there's football on.

    Then again, herself watches football from time-to-time so she gets dibs when there's something she wants to watch.

    Meh, it's pretty equal in my view. People in a proper relationship should be flexible to the other person's wants/needs to a degree. If one side is insistently dominant, the relationship will taper out in time.


  • Registered Users Posts: 228 ✭✭PingO_O


    You made some interesting points op but when you start a thread like why do [insert gender] tend to be [insert adjective] you tend to focus in on a sample you can't quantify, I've seen many threads and posts on boards saying why are irish women this and that (usually negative) and its just not the case.

    I know too many guys that aren't submissive in relationships but I still like some of the observations in your post.


  • Registered Users Posts: 526 ✭✭✭OnTheCouch


    Lelantos wrote: »
    Its called: Wanting a quiet life :)

    I was going to mention this in the original post, knew there was something I had forgotten! ;)
    PingO_O wrote: »
    You made some interesting points op but when you start a thread like why do [insert gender] tend to be [insert adjective] you tend to focus in on a sample you can't quantify, I've seen many threads and posts on boards saying why are irish women this and that (usually negative) and its just not the case.

    I know too many guys that aren't submissive in relationships but I still like some of the observations in your post.

    Fair criticism. I suppose all I can say is basing a discussion around the 15 couples I know/have known plus impressions gleaned from television etc, may not have been as fertile debating material. It may also have arguably been more something suited to Personal Issues than here.

    One of the reasons I tried to make the argument as balanced as possible and used arguments from either side, was to avoid the thread becoming precisely like one of those awful 'all Irish women are bitches' rants, which quickly turn farcical. Although I will acknowledge that when one takes such a broad sample as you say, it is nearly impossible to not use generalities at times, even if the overall tone of the entry is reasonably fair and objective.


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  • Registered Users Posts: 4,070 ✭✭✭Xenophile


    As the book says "Men are from Mars, women are from Venus". Mars of course is the warrior planet, Martian fiery forces and all that. On the other hand Venus the planet of love, beauty and harmony.

    So as many songs go "All you need is Love", "Love changes everthing" etc.


    Maybe women are just better at loving and men at fighting.

    To quote Virgil.

    Love conquers all things — let us yield to Love.
    Love conquers all; let us, too, yield to love.
    Love conquers all things: let us too give in to Love.
    Love conquers all things; let us too surrender to love.

    Let me say very well done to the OP on such an interesting opening post.

    The Forum on Spirituality has been closed for years. Please bring it back, there are lots of Spiritual people in Ireland and elsewhere.



  • Registered Users Posts: 219 ✭✭Woodward


    A lot of it has to do with the fact that men are primarily raised by mothers and are raised with a deference towards women. A wife merely takes the place of a mother subconsciously


  • Registered Users Posts: 526 ✭✭✭OnTheCouch


    Woodward wrote: »
    A lot of it has to do with the fact that men are primarily raised by mothers and are raised with a deference towards women. A wife merely takes the place of a mother subconsciously

    Going on the above logic, would you therefore argue that men who grew up with a strong father figure then become in turn more dominant in their own relationships?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 7,484 ✭✭✭username123


    Cant say Ive noticed it being a particularly male or female phenomena to "wear the trousers". Some individuals are just more dominant than others, regardless of gender.

    I know couples where the man "wears the trousers", couples where the woman "wears the trousers", couples that seem to equally share a pant leg each, female couples where one female "wears the trousers", male couples where one male "wears the trousers". Its a mixed bag really.

    Whatever works for each individual couple. For some of the cliched examples used I could offer similar observations with the gender switched (the one that particularly comes to mind is the one with the girl with a face on her when out with the BFs friends - as a woman I see the opposite gendered story all the time!).

    My husband and I tend to be very equal, I would say we share a pant leg each.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,390 ✭✭✭clairefontaine


    Married men often appear as eunuchs to me but that could be because of cultural expectations of what masculinity is. So I do see what you are saying but I don't know if it's due to the men or because of my prejudicial expectations that are violated.


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  • Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 2,713 ✭✭✭eireannBEAR


    Lelantos wrote: »
    Its called: Wanting a quiet life :)

    100% correct i would of thought this post would of got more thanks.

    as this issue is that simple. since beating women is out of fashion these days we have no choice but to shut up. :D


  • Registered Users Posts: 372 ✭✭The Pheasant




  • Registered Users Posts: 8,392 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    A happy wife is a happy life! It's quite simple really....


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 25,848 ✭✭✭✭Zombrex


    A lot of men are lazy and just want a replacement mother who will make house hold decisions for themselves, I guess.

    Wouldn't be my cup of tea, I like to discuss things and have input. But if you are focused on things like work you might be perfectly happy to be just minded at home without have to worry about it.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,743 ✭✭✭blatantrereg


    Might be true with younger people. They say girls mature faster than guys. I don't think it's true overall. Personally I tend to fall into a dominant role, though in most ways I prefer things to be balanced.


  • Registered Users Posts: 3,963 ✭✭✭Meangadh


    Are they submissive though? I'd like to think that they are just being mature and considerate enough to realise that they can't live their lives the same in a relationship as they would have when they were single. They have someone else to consider. Submissive suggests that they are being hounded and nagged by the woman to the point where the men just have to give in, "for the quiet life". It shouldn't take that though. I know in reality women often do end up having to nag, but it genuinely shouldn't be necessary. (Now having said that, I do know some women who are overly critical of their men, and why the men put up with that either I don't know.) Perhaps though people say that men are submissive in relationships because for so long women were the ones who had to just go with whatever their husbands wanted, and now that things are different (thankfully), men can get a hard time (mostly from other men) about being "whipped" if they do what their wives/girlfriends ask of them.

    I would like to think though that we're living in an age where neither sex has to "submit" to the other and that it's more a compromise thing. That's the way it should be anyway, I think.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 12,449 ✭✭✭✭pwurple


    This winds me up with my husband. He says things like, "must ask the boss", and "dunno if I will get a permission slip" when his buddies are asking him to go drinking. I am more than happy to see him going out with his friends, I do the same. We even keep our calendars synced to our phones to see if we are overlapping and need a babysitter. The reality is that he is cutting back on booze as part of a health kick and uses me as an excuse!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Legs.Eleven


    A few observations:


    - I have noticed the phenomenon you're talking about, OP, where the woman takes the lead but I've also noticed that the men are happy as pig in shyte to take that role generally speaking. The woman takes charge with all the organisational stuff and he just goes along with it. Personally I'd hate to be a woman like that or a fella like that but if they're happy....

    - I've come across genuine naggy women in my life but again they've been enabled to carry on that way by the boyfriend remaining passive. Not justifying her behaviour but often with these kinds of relationships you're going to find a certain kind of man. It's up to you whether you want to remain in a relationship or not and obviously they do. Perhaps all the good stuff balances it out.

    - I find men as they get older are happier than women to give up their friends and social life. That's why men are often more isolated and lacking friends as they get much older. I see it with my dad and my step-mam. She has a massive group of friends whereas he's got one or two good mates but is happy to spend most of time either with her or alone. My own boyfriend is the same. He's 10 years older than me (43) and since meeting me, he's become less social. I'm the one who has try and convince him to get off his hole (in the nicest possible way) and meet his friends or else he'll lose them.

    I find often men use the woman as an excuse for not going out when it often comes down to them preferring to stay in themselves. I hate that. I hate the idea that a man portrays a woman as a nag and has him under his thumb because the stereotype about women exists so people believe it. Horrible way to portray your girlfriend when it isn't the case at all (this isn't my situation but an observation of other couples).

    -I've noticed the phenomenon too of couples in a group where the girl gets stonky and wants to go home. I personally wouldn't take that from anyone and I can never understand why the man does. Uncomfortable for everyone involved including the friends.

    - Overall though, most couples I know have the balance. I most definitely have that in my own and couldn't stand it any other way. I'm not the dominant type but I'm not a walk-over either and he'd be the very same. Most, if not all, of my friends are the same.

    I do see the couples you're referring to, OP but I wouldn't presume they're not happy. As you said yourself, you've no idea what's going on between two people and we only get to see a fraction of their time together when they socialise and even then they're probably not being how they'd normally be. Women are all too often portrayed as nags in the media etc which I hate and it's often not justified in the slightest - people with no back bone pulling out the stereotypes. Many women often become that in a relationship and it's horrible to see but often men become passive and child-like in relationships allowing this to happen and letting the woman sort out his mess (metaphorically and literally) Whatever floats your boat, I suppose.


    I will say though: don't take your friends' word for it when they say their girlfriend won't allow them to do something - often it's just an excuse.


  • Registered Users Posts: 23,457 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    As stated before , I also like an easy life. Fight the good fight, let all others slide bye


  • Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 21,654 Mod ✭✭✭✭helimachoptor


    An easy life is acceptable up to a point tbh using that as a reason to get yourself walked all over isn't justifiable IMO


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  • Registered Users Posts: 23,457 ✭✭✭✭ted1


    An easy life is acceptable up to a point tbh using that as a reason to get yourself walked all over isn't justifiable IMO

    Big difference between living an easy life and being walked over. As I said fight the good fight.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭illuma


    I've noticed that with a lot of Irish couples alright. I've never seen it with the Polish or any of the foreign couples here where the roles tend to be more traditional.


  • Registered Users Posts: 5,560 ✭✭✭Slutmonkey57b


    I think that instead of "the quiet life", it's the case that there are many things that a woman has strong opinions on which the man simply couldn't give a toss about. I know for me that there are occasions when I'm expected to come up with a decision on things which are so insignificant it's not even worth firing up the brain to respond, much less think about it or form an opinion. So in that case, "whatever you think" is the thing to go along with.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Legs.Eleven


    But you've also got men who won't make a definitive decision about anything knowing the girlfriend will. That's infuriating. Even thing like deciding where to go to have a drink - "I don't mind". Yeah that's cool but a decision, no matter how small, has to be made or we'll be stuck walking the streets the whole night. Sheer laziness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭illuma


    But you've also got men who won't make a definitive decision about anything knowing the girlfriend will. That's infuriating. Even thing like deciding where to go to have a drink - "I don't mind". Yeah that's cool but a decision, no matter how small, has to be made or we'll be stuck walking the streets the whole night. Sheer laziness.

    Surely something as trivial as where to go for a drink shouldn't be just left to the man to decide?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Legs.Eleven


    illuma wrote: »
    I've noticed that with a lot of Irish couples alright. I've never seen it with the Polish or any of the foreign couples here where the roles tend to be more traditional.


    This might be true alright. My observations here in Spain is that although the women like to give the impression that they wear the pants, they don't. Men absolutely wear the trousers here, even among younger generations. A recent study among young people stated that young women wouldn't mind getting hit by their boyfriends as it'd prove to them they were loved :confused: Ehhh....

    Interesting with myself and my Spanish boyfriend although he'd be exceptional in that he's not your typical macho Spaniard at all. If he tried to boss me about, I wouldn't put up with it at all.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,628 ✭✭✭Ando's Saggy Bottom


    If a man is overly submissive in a relationship with a women I usually find theyre likely to be the type to suffer from low self esteem.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,987 ✭✭✭Legs.Eleven


    illuma wrote: »
    Surely something as trivial as where to go for a drink shouldn't be just left to the man to decide?


    No I mean that often these organisational decisions are left solely to the woman and not just deciding where to go to have a drink. Surely it's a decision to come to together? Decide on a place to go to together instead of always leaving it up to one person?

    My point is, I've seen men leave the organising to the woman ALWAYS. Some men would discount these decisions as being trivial but they have to be decided.

    Some men are happy to let their life be decided by women and I believe a lot of it is down to laziness.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 69 ✭✭illuma


    No I mean that often these organisational decisions are left solely to the woman and not just deciding where to go to have a drink. Surely it's a decision to come to together? Decide on a place to go to together instead of always leaving it up to one person?

    My point is, I've seen men leave the organising to the woman ALWAYS. Some men would discount these decisions as being trivial but they have to be decided.

    Some men are happy to let their life be decided by women and I believe a lot of it is down to laziness.

    Yeah I see what you mean, although if you ask them what sexual position they want, I'm sure they will be a lot more decisive.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Some women nag. Some men nag (I presume). Some don't. Some do a lot. Some do only a little. Some have good reason. Some do so out of neurosis.

    If a guy is going out drinking and coming home late half-cut five nights a week, then his wife or partner probably has good cause to nag. She's concerned about his health, and about how this will effect their relationship or family and out of frustration turns to nagging as a means to deal with the problem.

    Of course, nagging probably isn't the best way to deal with such a problem, there are more effective and diplomatic approaches, but when people are frustrated they'll often turn to the approach that seems most direct and/or allows them to unload their frustrations.

    On the other hand, consider a couple that share housework. She feels that the bathroom should be cleaned, top to bottom, every day. He feels that once a week is more than sufficient. Nagging is far less justifiable in such a situation as cleaning the bathroom, top to bottom, every day is an exaggeration to most people and so the nagging becomes one person's attempt to bully the other into accepting their standards, without compromise.

    The passive approach to nagging by men is just one of those things that has evolved over the millennia (read some Roman plays) to deal with being in a relationship with someone who uses this for problem resolution. There are rational reasons for this strategy, even though I agree it is not an ideal approach - any more so than nagging is in the first place. For example:

    There's no point reasoning. With women who are 'naggers' there is generally absolutely no point in trying to reason with them. As with the above example, the woman in question will never accept that cleaning the bathroom, top to bottom, every day is an exaggeration; so attempting to reason with her will ultimately get you nowhere - she'll just become more entrenched in her view and the row will escalate.

    Nagging episodes are temporary. A man will get chewed out of it, nagged, shouted at, whatever. If he rides it out, she'll get it out of her system and things will go back to normal. Then he can just do whatever he likes anyway.

    Beware escalation. Stay silent and the nagging will just stay at that level and pass. Object, attempt a counter argument or argue back and the nagging will become a full-fledged row. Stick to your guns and it'll continue escalating; to what level depends upon the woman in question, but all I'll say from experience is do not have such a row in a kitchen - way too dangerous.

    Ultimately, men do want a quiet life. We already have stress issues to deal with without inviting more. Standing up for yourself will simply be rewarded with a heart attack or stroke before you're fifty.

    Pick your fights. If you fight back too often, then - other than ending up in a relationship where you have screaming rows three times a week - she'll become desensitized to your opposition. If you pick your fights, then she'll be more likely to back down when she realizes that a topic is important to you enough that you're ready to escalate the disagreement and this will more likely back down in some face-saving manner designed not to make her look as if she's backing down.

    I've used the 'passive' approach in the past, as well as a more communicative one - it really depends on the woman I'm with and ideally the latter is better. Of course, you can't always control the one's you fall in love with.


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