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Pepper Spray

124»

Comments

  • #92
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    joushikijin wrote: »
    His car is not a public space! This sounds like another hear say story without validity.

    Where do you think the car was stopped. But on a public place. By that logic no one could be convicted of drink driving in a public place because they are in fact in their car. He is in possession of both the car and it contents. It was an appeal from Cork District Court to Cork Circuit court. I was in court waiting a number of my own cases when my ears picked up at mention of pepper spray. Unless you feel I am making up the story.

    BTW I am in Galway Circuit Court tomorrow, God I hate the road to Galway when are we going to have a motorway from Cork to Galway, its a bloody pain.


  • #93
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    I think any court would split themselves laughing at any Garda who brings a person before the court under the firearms act for possession of a can of lynx. While some teenage boys would kill ya with the over use of same I do not believe they are manufactured with the intention of causing harm. While some deodorants might be nasty they are not noxious.

    The definition of "noxious"

    Noxious
    1. poisonous or harmful
    2. harmful to the mind or morals; corrupting

    Deodorant is a noxious substance due to its composition and can compared to other, also noxious substances result into irreparable and long term damage, if abused!


  • #94
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    joushikijin wrote: »
    The definition of "noxious"

    Noxious
    1. poisonous or harmful
    2. harmful to the mind or morals; corrupting

    Deodorant is a noxious substance due to its composition and can compared to other, also noxious substances result into irreparable and long term damage, if abused!

    A tooth pick can result in irreparable damage if abused and pushed into someone's eye. There is no court going to accept that because an otherwise inert product can be abused it suddenly becomes noxious. Pepper spray has been held to be covered under the act I am not aware lynx has also been so described.

    From UK law similar to here


    Regina v. Hawkes (Attorney-General's Reference No 68 of 2007)

    "The Court of Appeal, Criminal Division (Lord Phillips of Worth Matravers, Lord Chief Justice, Mr Justice Davis and Mr Justice Simon) so stated on October 22, 2007 when allowing an application by the AttorneyGeneral, under section 36 of the Criminal Justice Act 1988, for leave to refer, as being unduly lenient, a prison sentence of two years imposed on Clayton Hawkes by Judge Rucker at Truro Crown Court on May 18, 2007, following his conviction for conspiracy to supply a controlled class A drug and two counts of possessing a prohibited weapon, a stun gun and a pepper spray, for which he received concurrent sentences. The total sentence was increased to four years."

    UK Act is the Firearms Act 1968 the relevant section is S.5

    "(b)any weapon of whatever description designed or adapted for the discharge of any noxious liquid, gas or other thing; and"

    BTW the Irish legislation "the expression “prohibited weapon” means and includes any weapon of whatever description designed for the discharge of any noxious liquid, noxious gas, or other noxious thing, and also any ammunition (whether for any such weapon as aforesaid or for any other weapon) which contains or is designed or adapted to contain any noxious liquid, noxious gas, or other noxious thing;"

    Kinda the same.


  • #95
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    Where do you think the car was stopped. But on a public place. By that logic no one could be convicted of drink driving in a public place because they are in fact in their car. He is in possession of both the car and it contents. It was an appeal from Cork District Court to Cork Circuit court. I was in court waiting a number of my own cases when my ears picked up at mention of pepper spray. Unless you feel I am making up the story.

    This is exactly what I mean by hear say! You might have "picked up" a conversation without knowing the full context first hand.


  • #96
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    joushikijin wrote: »
    This is exactly what I mean by hear say! You might have "picked up" a conversation without knowing the full context first hand.

    Wha???

    You realise this was in a court where the rules of evidence would apply.


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  • #97
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    joushikijin wrote: »
    This is exactly what I mean by hear say! You might have "picked up" a conversation without knowing the full context first hand.

    I'm a barrister in Court listening to a court case, it was not a random person talking on the street, I think its not difficult to get a person was convicted in DC for possesion of pepper spray and appealed the severity of a sentence, I think listening to court cases being part of the job I should get the facts right.


  • #98
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    I'm a barrister in Court listening to a court case, it was not a random person talking on the street, I think its not difficult to get a person was convicted in DC for possesion of pepper spray and appealed the severity of a sentence, I think listening to court cases being part of the job I should get the facts right.

    I am not interested in believes but facts only. Unfortunately do I have not much but an excerpt from an act that seems to be predestinated for arbitrary abuse and several individuals subjective opinions!

    Your help is much appreciated and I am sure the Garda will also have an answer for me.


  • #99
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    joushikijin wrote: »
    I am not interested in believes but facts only. Unfortunately do I have not much but an excerpt from an act that seems to be predestinated for arbitrary abuse and several individuals subjective opinions!

    Your help is much appreciated and I am sure the Garda will also have an answer for me.

    I can't work out if you're a troll or you really don't understand how this works. I'm assuming the latter.

    Gardai don't make the law, judges (common law) and the legislature (statute law) do. Judges interpret statutes. An act (statute) can't contain every possible outcome otherwise every time lynx brought out a new deodorant it would need to be put in to the act.

    You need to engage a solicitor to get a proper answer. If you're insistent they might get a legal opinion off a barrister.


  • #100
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    joushikijin wrote: »
    I am not interested in believes but facts only. Unfortunately do I have not much but an excerpt from an act that seems to be predestinated for arbitrary abuse and several individuals subjective opinions!

    Your help is much appreciated and I am sure the Garda will also have an answer for me.

    I have also posted a case which sets out that under similar uk law pepper spray was a weapon. Pepper spray is a prohibited weapon under Irish law and lynx is not. It's that simple, AGS will tell you the same, if you don't believe me or them then by all means carry pepper spray. Enjoy the conviction under the firearms act.

    By the way the case I was in court for was fact and the UK case quoted is fact.


  • #101
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    LowKeyReturn wrote: »
    I can't work out if you're a troll or you really don't understand how this works. I'm assuming the latter.

    Gardai don't make the law, judges (common law) and the legislature (statute law) do. Judges interpret statutes. An act (statute) can't contain every possible outcome otherwise every time lynx brought out a new deodorant it would need to be put in to the act.

    You need to engage a solicitor to get a proper answer. If you're insistent they might get a legal opinion off a barrister.

    I am in search of a clear answer. I am from Germany and I am used to have a clear law written down. If the act that is being recited the only legal document defining the legality or non-legality of pepper spray or other substances than there is a lot of work that needs to be done because this is asking for abuse from lawyers and judges.
    I hope that I am very wrong because it would scare me very much if this very vaguely phrased act is the only document defining what should be clearly written out.
    I dont think a barrister or lawyer should be needed to understand the law, every citizen should be able to grasp it. Again this reminds me a lot of countries in which governments are corrupted and not a modern democracy.


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  • #102
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    I have also posted a case which sets out that under similar uk law pepper spray was a weapon.

    Thank you, I have seen it but this is Ireland and not the UK, therefore it is not much help to me.


  • #103
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    joushikijin wrote: »
    I am in search of a clear answer. I am from Germany and I am used to have a clear law written down. If the act that is being recited the only legal document defining the legality or non-legality of pepper spray or other substances than there is a lot of work that needs to be done because this is asking for abuse from lawyers and judges.
    I hope that I am very wrong because it would scare me very much if this very vaguely phrased act is the only document defining what should be clearly written out.
    I dont think a barrister or lawyer should be needed to understand the law, every citizen should be able to grasp it. Again this reminds me a lot of countries in which governments are corrupted and not a modern democracy.

    Germany is a civil law country and has a different ethos in its laws. I'm not going to debate which is superior. Ireland shares much of it's legal system with the UK, more precisely England and Wales as Scotland is a hybrid Common/Civil law system. I would however suggest if you are that scared of our legal system, and possibly people given the need for pepper spray, perhaps a return to more familiar surroundings?

    On grasping the law - many lay people have grasped the law on pepper spray. Possible that it's not us but...


  • #104
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    joushikijin wrote: »
    I am in search of a clear answer. I am from Germany and I am used to have a clear law written down. If the act that is being recited the only legal document defining the legality or non-legality of pepper spray or other substances than there is a lot of work that needs to be done because this is asking for abuse from lawyers and judges.
    I hope that I am very wrong because it would scare me very much if this very vaguely phrased act is the only document defining what should be clearly written out.
    I dont think a barrister or lawyer should be needed to understand the law, every citizen should be able to grasp it. Again this reminds me a lot of countries in which governments are corrupted and not a modern democracy.

    Germany has the criminal and civil code, Ireland has the common law legal system. Did you read the bit of the case from the UK which I posted it clearly said the person was convicted under their firearms legislation almost the same as ours for having pepper spray. In Irish and English and Welsh law certain words in law have certain meanings, any lawyer with 5 seconds in practice could tell you pepper spray is noxious and covered under act lynx is not.

    http://www.code3tactical.com/pepper-spray-oc-spray.aspx

    As you can see Germany goes into some detail about pepper spray,

    "In Germany privately owned pepper spray may fall into two different categories. Sprays that bear the test mark of the Material prÃüfungsanstalt may be owned and carried solely for the purpose of defense against animals. Such sprays are not legally considered as weapons. Sprays that do not bear this test mark are classified as prohibited weapons. It is nevertheless strictly prohibited to carry pepper spray at (or on the way to and from) demonstrations - whether it bears a test mark or not."

    Ireland and other common law countries allow more freedom to the judges to decide on things with in the legislation.
    Pal so from the Department of Justice (The Guards are part of that department)

    http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Firearms_and_Ammunition_FAQ


    8. What about CS gas spray, pepper spray and stun guns?
    These are all totally prohibited in this country. Importation or possession of any of these items is illegal.

    Or are they not good enough either, they drafted the law, they employ the judges and the Guards so I think they may have got the issue correct.


  • #105
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    LowKeyReturn wrote: »
    Germany is a civil law country and has a different ethos in its laws. I'm not going to debate which is superior.

    Ireland shares much of it's legal system with the UK, more precisely England and Wales as Scotland is a hybrid Common/Civil law system.

    I would however suggest if you are that scared of our legal system, and possibly people given the need for pepper spray, perhaps a return to more familiar surroundings?

    I always love the "go home foreigner" card, it never gets old! I am a EU and Irish citizen, I am home ;)


  • #106
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    joushikijin wrote: »
    I always love the "go home foreigner" card, it never gets old! I am a EU and Irish citizen, I am home ;)

    I'm not Irish. You seem very frightened was my only concern.


  • #107
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    Germany has the criminal and civil code, Ireland has the common law legal system. Did you read the bit of the case from the UK which I posted it clearly said the person was convicted under their firearms legislation almost the same as ours for having pepper spray. In Irish and English and Welsh law certain words in law have certain meanings, any lawyer with 5 seconds in practice could tell you pepper spray is noxious and covered under act lynx is not.

    How do they come to this conclusion? Lynx is clearly a more dangerous substance than pepper spray.
    I cant find anything in the act, how to they decide that one is legal, and the other one isn't?


  • #108
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    joushikijin wrote: »
    Thank you, I have seen it but this is Ireland and not the UK, therefore it is not much help to me.

    Ireland and the English and Welsh legal system are very similar, English case law is persuasive in Ireland, the legislation uses the same words, I use English cases in Ireland in a daily basis, if there is no irish case on point. So yes English case law is important in the Irish legal system.


  • #109
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    joushikijin wrote: »
    How do they come to this conclusion? Lynx is clearly a more dangerous substance than pepper spray.
    I cant find anything in the act, how to they decide that one is legal, and the other one isn't?

    It called using common reason. Pepper spray is manufactured to cause harm lynx is not. I can not figure out are you just trying to get a rise or you really don't get it. Either way I have given you personal experience, legal experience and quoted case law, if that's not good enough nothing will convince you.


  • #110
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    joushikijin wrote: »
    How do they come to this conclusion? Lynx is clearly a more dangerous substance than pepper spray.
    I cant find anything in the act, how to they decide that one is legal, and the other one isn't?

    Can you point out in German law where Sure for men 24 Hr is allowed? Is the 48Hr and 72Hr allowed?

    I like Old spice after-shave, I know, I know but someone has to smell middle aged - Can I carry around the light blue one in Germany or is it only the one in the red bottle? Where would each of these be listed?


  • #111
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    Am I right in thinking if Lynx was sprayed in someone's face it might be considered under the relevant legislation? (Not sure if it's still the 1925 Act.)


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  • #112
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    It called using common reason. Pepper spray is manufactured to cause harm lynx is not. I can not figure out are you just trying to get a rise or you really don't get it. Either way I have given you personal experience, legal experience and quoted case law, if that's not good enough nothing will convince you.

    Pepper spray is manufactured to defend, it is not even a weapon as it is made out of natural peppers and oil. It is designed to defend and not as an offensive tool or weapon.
    Yes I do seem to have problems in understanding any logic in your explanation but appreciate your attempt and time spent on it.


  • #113
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    LowKeyReturn wrote: »
    Am I right in thinking if Lynx was sprayed in someone's face it might be considered under the relevant legislation? (Not sure if it's still the 1925 Act.)

    I doubt it the person would be done under sections 2,3 or 4 non fatal offences against the person Act.


    Assault.

    2.—(1) A person shall be guilty of the offence of assault who, without lawful excuse, intentionally or recklessly—

    (a) directly or indirectly applies force to or causes an impact on the body of another, or

    (b) causes another to believe on reasonable grounds that he or she is likely immediately to be subjected to any such force or impact,

    without the consent of the other.

    (2) In subsection (1) (a), “force” includes—

    (a) application of heat, light, electric current, noise or any other form of energy, and

    (b) application of matter in solid liquid or gaseous form.


  • #114
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    joushikijin wrote: »
    Pepper spray is manufactured to defend, it is not even a weapon as it is made out of natural peppers and oil. It is designed to defend and not as an offensive tool or weapon.
    Yes I do seem to have problems in understanding any logic in your explanation but appreciate your attempt and time spent on it.

    Again the Department of Justice

    http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Firearms_and_Ammunition_FAQ

    "8. What about CS gas spray, pepper spray and stun guns?
    These are all totally prohibited in this country. Importation or possession of any of these items is illegal."

    I can find no mention of lynx or other product on the site or case law.


  • #115
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    LowKeyReturn wrote: »
    Can you point out in German law where Sure for men 24 Hr is allowed? Is the 48Hr and 72Hr allowed?

    I like Old spice after-shave, I know, I know but someone has to smell middle aged - Can I carry around the light blue one in Germany or is it only the one in the red bottle? Where would each of these be listed?

    I dont understand your first sentence, could you rephrase that for me.

    I am sure there is no law against smelling middle aged in Germany (don't pin me on it). You can carry your Old Spice in any colour as long as you do not carry it with the intention of using it to commit a crime. You find it all in the StGB!


  • #116
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    Again the Department of Justice

    http://www.justice.ie/en/JELR/Pages/Firearms_and_Ammunition_FAQ

    "8. What about CS gas spray, pepper spray and stun guns?
    These are all totally prohibited in this country. Importation or possession of any of these items is illegal."

    I can find no mention of lynx or other product on the site or case law.

    Thank you, that is what I was looking for ;)


  • #117
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    joushikijin wrote: »
    I dont understand your first sentence, could you rephrase that for me.

    I am sure there is no law against smelling middle aged in Germany (don't pin me on it). You can carry your Old Spice in any colour as long as you do not carry it with the intention of using it to commit a crime. You find it all in the StGB!

    From my little understanding of German law pepper spray is allowed as long as it is classed as for the use in defence against animals. But if any pepper spray is carried to or from a demonstration that is illegal even if it is designated as for defence against animals. That's German law all very logical and I assume if I found the bit of the Criminal law it would give me a definition of pepper spray. But in Ireland its different, it may be strange to you as a non lawyer, but it clearly is the law, I have also pointed out the law that would be breached if a person sprayed lynx on a person.


  • #118
    LowKeyReturn
    Closed Accounts Posts: 934 ✭✭✭LowKeyReturn


    joushikijin wrote: »
    I dont understand your first sentence, could you rephrase that for me.

    I am sure there is no law against smelling middle aged in Germany (don't pin me on it). You can carry your Old Spice in any colour as long as you do not carry it with the intention of using it to commit a crime. You find it all in the StGB!

    I'm looking for where all these are listed, by name, as legal to possess.

    Watch that document RW linked it's a product of the corrupt law and government!


  • #119
    ResearchWill
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,111 ✭✭✭ResearchWill


    joushikijin wrote: »
    Thank you, that is what I was looking for ;)

    The joys of the Internet all the answers are there if you can find them.


  • #120
    joushikijin
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 22 ✭joushikijin


    ResearchWill wrote: »
    From my little understanding of German law pepper spray is allowed as long as it is classed as for the use in defence against animals. But if any pepper spray is carried to or from a demonstration that is illegal even if it is designated as for defence against animals. That's German law all very logical and I assume if I found the bit of the Criminal law it would give me a definition of pepper spray. But in Ireland its different, it may be strange to you as a non lawyer, but it clearly is the law, I have also pointed out the law that would be breached if a person sprayed lynx on a person.

    In Germany it is the intend, you can own and carry a gun to a shooting range but on a public transport (or demonstration) you show intend of misuse.
    Pepper Spray is legal to every child 14 and above to be purchased, carried and used to defend themselves. The reason it has to be labeled "to defend from animals" is a political that reaches a few years back but it is there to give individuals the option to self defend.
    The reason I was inquiring is that I noticed that violence has been increased and I was subject to a robbery within my own car (broad daylight in Galway). Gladly I worked for several years in close protection and had no problems fending of my attacker without any weapons. Unfortunately did my local Garda station did not help me in any way despite that I had the registration of the perpetrators car. I have been told it was a case of road rage?
    Clearly I rather rely on myself than on the local Garda when it comes to self preservation and therefore wanted to see what my resources are. I guess I have to live with a bottle of Lynx in my car.
    Thanks again for your patience and help, much appreciated ;)


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