Hill Start Assist - Opinions?

Pique · 28-05-2013 12:08pm #1

I've just bought a new motor (Alfa 159 JTDm, for anyone interested) and I love it.

BUT, it's got hill start assist (or whatever it's proper name is) and I have to say, I feckin hate it. Had it on a Golf hire car at one point too and hated it then too, so it's not just the Alfa.

Is it just me? I've been driving 20 years now and learned the old fashioned way, with the handbrake, and even without it I'm fairly handy. This system nearly makes me stall the car for the split second while the brakes are still engaged, and I'm trying to move before the car cops on to release the brakes.

Maybe if/when I get fully used to it, I'll change my mind, but till then, aaargh!

What do ye lot think of it?

keithclancy · 28-05-2013 12:12pm

Pique wrote: »

I've just bought a new motor (Alfa 159 JTDm, for anyone interested) and I love it.

BUT, it's got hill start assist (or whatever it's proper name is) and I have to say, I feckin hate it. Had it on a Golf hire car at one point too and hated it then too, so it's not just the Alfa.

Is it just me? I've been driving 20 years now and learned the old fashioned way, with the handbrake, and even without it I'm fairly handy. This system nearly makes me stall the car for the split second while the brakes are still engaged, and I'm trying to move before the car cops on to release the brakes.

Maybe if/when I get fully used to it, I'll change my mind, but till then, aaargh!

What do ye lot think of it?

I like cruise control ... Hill Start and Start/Stop I find a bit unsettling

MuppetCheck · 28-05-2013 12:14pm

Had it in my last car and it's useful on steep hills, but it did have a timeout whereby the car would roll back after 5 seconds or so which I always thought was pointless. If you want to roll backwards all you had to do was flick the accelerator to turn it off. I never noticed it holding the brakes too long, although the Insignia I'm driving at the moment does that all the time to where the car almost stalls. I suppose it's the difference between a good and bad implementation of the system.

b318isp · 28-05-2013 12:14pm

Pointless complexity, technology for technology's sake. Wait for the bill when it goes wrong. Some models also will not allow you to DIY the brake pads, as the rear caliper pistons have to be driven back through software.

Mitch Connor · 28-05-2013 12:17pm

b318isp wrote: »

Pointless complexity, technology for technology's sake. Wait for the bill when it goes wrong. Some models also will not allow you to DIY the brake pads, as the rear caliper pistons have to be driven back through software.

IMO a car should never roll backwards unless it is in reverse gear - hill start tech is an absolute no brainer to have on a car, it should be a standard feature on all cars.

Chippy01 · 28-05-2013 12:17pm

Can you turn it off? How is it set?
My Prius has that feature, and to 'set' it I just press harder on the brake pedal while stopped. That will hold the brakes on until I hit the accellerator. If I don't give that extra push on the pedal, the hill start assist does not engage.

b318isp · 28-05-2013 12:21pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

IMO a car should never roll backwards unless it is in reverse gear - hill start tech is an absolute no brainer to have on a car, it should be a standard feature on all cars.

Handbrakes are a quite handy standard feature on most cars. Cheap, tried & tested and works generally quite well, in my experience.

keithclancy · 28-05-2013 12:24pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

IMO a car should never roll backwards unless it is in reverse gear - hill start tech is an absolute no brainer to have on a car, it should be a standard feature on all cars.

The car should roll backwards if I want it to roll backwards.

Mitch Connor · 28-05-2013 12:24pm

b318isp wrote: »

Handbrakes are a quite handy standard feature on most cars. Cheap, tried & tested and works generally quite well, in my experience.

Ineed - and when you release the handbrake, the car should still not roll backwards without being in reverse. Hill start assist feature should still stop the car from rolling backwards.

I didn't say hill start should replace the handbrake, did I?

mickdw · 28-05-2013 12:24pm

b318isp wrote: »

Some models also will not allow you to DIY the brake pads, as the rear caliper pistons have to be driven back through software.

and you can acquire the software to do this reasonably cheap for many cars, making the rear pads just as easy to diy as your typical wind back job.

Mitch Connor · 28-05-2013 12:25pm

keithclancy wrote: »

The car should roll backwards if I want it to roll backwards.

So put the car into reverse, hardly complicated.

b318isp · 28-05-2013 12:27pm

mickdw wrote: »

and you can acquire the software to do this reasonably cheap for many cars, making the rear pads just as easy to diy as your typical wind back job.

Interesting, can you get it for any model - as it was big money when I last looked into it?

Cheensbo · 28-05-2013 12:29pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

IMO a car should never roll backwards unless it is in reverse gear - hill start tech is an absolute no brainer to have on a car, it should be a standard feature on all cars.

What :eek: why shouldn't it?

IMO if you cannot pull off on a hill without some form of electronic assistance you shouldn't be driving. I rarely (cant remember the last time) use the handbrake for hillstarts... How is it seen as hard to do??

mickdw · 28-05-2013 12:32pm

Well I have a cheap version of vagcom which I have used for many things such as coding changes, diagnosis, resetting lights etc and rear pad changes. This does vw, audi skoda and seat and it cost me well under €100.

I have seen dedicated pad replacement tools too for small money that do many makes of car.

keithclancy · 28-05-2013 12:32pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So put the car into reverse, hardly complicated.

Well that's assuming the car will:
A. Start in the first place (Flat Battery)
B. That the car will go into reverse in the first place.

You can keep that Auto hill starty bollocks ... more rubbish to go wrong.

b318isp · 28-05-2013 12:33pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Ineed - and when you release the handbrake, the car should still not roll backwards without being in reverse. Hill start assist feature should still stop the car from rolling backwards.

I didn't say hill start should replace the handbrake, did I?

This can be done manually quite well, and the hill assist systems are not perfect either.

It's a bit like auto-wipers. I've never had a problem in operating mine manually, and the automatic version we have on one of the cars doesn't operate as I'd like in light rain.

Both are compensators for human fallibility, but not essential for a significant proportion of drivers.

b318isp · 28-05-2013 12:36pm

mickdw wrote: »

Well I have a cheap version of vagcom which I have used for many things such as coding changes, diagnosis, resetting lights etc and rear pad changes. This does vw, audi skoda and seat and it cost me well under €100.

I have seen dedicated pad replacement tools too for small money that do many makes of car.

Cheers. I have the demo version of VAGCOM which doesn't drive back the pads. Good to hear about the other options. Thanks.

Mitch Connor · 28-05-2013 12:42pm

Cheensbo wrote: »

What :eek: why shouldn't it?

IMO if you cannot pull off on a hill without some form of electronic assistance you shouldn't be driving. I rarely (cant remember the last time) use the handbrake for hillstarts... How is it seen as hard to do??

keithclancy wrote: »

Well that's assuming the car will:
A. Start in the first place (Flat Battery)
B. That the car will go into reverse in the first place.

You can keep that Auto hill starty bollocks ... more rubbish to go wrong.

b318isp wrote: »

This can be done manually quite well, and the hill assist systems are not perfect either.

It's a bit like auto-wipers. I've never had a problem in operating mine manually, and the automatic version we have on one of the cars doesn't operate as I'd like in light rain.

Both are compensators for human fallibility, but not essential for a significant proportion of drivers.

I've only once or twice in my 7 years or so of driving had an issue where the car has rolled back when I didn't want it to - and maybe hill assist wouldn't have stopped it on those occassions either. My clutch control or hill starts off the handbrake were 99.99999% exactly what I needed them to be.

That doesn't mean I can't see the sense in stopping a car from rolling down a hill when a mistake has been made - people make mistakes all the time; there really isn't a good reason why a car should roll backwards without some actual input telling it that it should - it is a dangerous circumstance that should be avoided where possible.

I'm sure i'm not the only one here that hasn't quite caught the bite point right and the car has rolled back a bit in their driving history.

For a failsafe you could have some clanky button somewhere to turn the feature off if required but otherwise I think it is stupid that a car in fully working order can roll backwards accidently. The same way I think manual gear boxes are a pointlessly backwards piece of tech for the vast majority of people - autogear boxes make far more practical sense for the majority of people driving. I do like my manual, and i'd pick a manual myself, but an auto does make more practical sense. Having to manually change gears is unnecessary.

Cheensbo · 28-05-2013 12:43pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

Ineed - and when you release the handbrake, the car should still not roll backwards without being in reverse. Hill start assist feature should still stop the car from rolling backwards.

I didn't say hill start should replace the handbrake, did I?

TBH if a driver can't control the car in such a simple, basic state I'd be worrying more about their abilities beyond pulling off on a feckin incline..

Mitch Connor · 28-05-2013 12:50pm

Cheensbo wrote: »

TBH if a driver can't control the car in such a simple, basic state I'd be worrying more about their abilities beyond pulling off on a feckin incline..

So your car has never, ever, rolled a bit backwards on you, ever? even a little?

Fair play.

If someone has to completely rely on it - yes, they have driving problems and should get some more lessons. But as a backup to generally good driving, just in case something goes wrong, i think it should be a standard safety feature.

You should never crash your car either - doesn't mean you'd do away with safety belts and airbags.

Cheensbo · 28-05-2013 12:55pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

So your car has never, ever, rolled a bit backwards on you, ever? even a little?

Fair play.

I'm certain it has but, the whole movement of pulling off tends to counteract it fairly well, also failing that there's a pedal in the middle, and then a handbrake...

I'm just not seeing why rolling back, even a little.. is such a big issue?

Why would one want to ad more electronic crappery to a motor is beyond me,

The electronic handbrake in b6 Passats comes to mind..

Mitch Connor · 28-05-2013 12:57pm

Cheensbo wrote: »

I'm certain it has but, the whole movement of pulling off tends to counteract it fairly well, also failing that there's a pedal in the middle, and then a handbrake...

I'm just not seeing why rolling back, even a little.. is such a big issue?

Why would one want to ad more electronic crappery to a motor is beyond me,

The electronic handbrake in b6 Passats comes to mind..

For the most part - it isn't a major issue - but i don't see why having such a feature to stop it happening is a big deal either. I could live without it very easily (only got this feature on my new car, in April) but even before I got the feature I thought it was stupid that a car, in first gear, would roll backwards.

Cheensbo · 28-05-2013 1:03pm

Mitch Connor wrote: »

If someone has to completely rely on it - yes, they have driving problems and should get some more lessons. But as a backup to generally good driving, just in case something goes wrong, i think it should be a standard safety feature.

You should never crash your car either - doesn't mean you'd do away with safety belts and airbags.

So hill start assist is up there with airbags and seatbelts in terms of essential safety devices in cars?

Mitch Connor wrote: »

For the most part - it isn't a major issue - but i don't see why having such a feature to stop it happening is a big deal either. I could live without it very easily (only got this feature on my new car, in April) but even before I got the feature I thought it was stupid that a car, in first gear, would roll backwards.

The car will only roll backwards in 1st if the clutch is disengaged and the brakes are also disengaged... I'm failing to see the essential need for it, surely the understanding that if there's no resistance applied, gravity will take over, is fairly basic..

I agree there obviously is a market for it, as an optional driver aid, but as a standard feature on all cars, I say Nay..

corktina · 28-05-2013 1:06pm

i had hill-start assist on a Transit and loved it

blingrhino · 28-05-2013 1:09pm

Buy an automatic

Pique · 28-05-2013 1:14pm

Do they put this in your license too that you can only do a hill start when the car does the hard part for you ?

I wish electronic driver 'aids' like this could be turned off via ECU.
Safety-based ones like ABS/EBD and so on (was sorely tempted to use 'etc' but I though that would be too many TLAs) should be locked down and permanent though.

Hill Start assist is (IMO) an example of more fannying about with a car to make it easier for incompetent muppets to drive.
I saw someone on a very slight incline about 4 feet from the car behind almost roll back into it after 3 or 4 failed hill-starts. They were in a new 308 too, so not a banger with a shagged handbrake cable. Atrocious!

Mitch Connor · 28-05-2013 1:16pm

Cheensbo wrote: »

The car will only roll backwards in 1st if the clutch is disengaged and the brakes are also disengaged... I'm failing to see the essential need for it, surely the understanding that if there's no resistance applied, gravity will take over, is fairly basic..

If the clutch isn't fully engaged or engaged to the degree required - which some people have problems with on a hill - which many people have gotten just a little wrong on a hill. Something to stop the car from rolling backwards when you are actively trying to get it going forwards is such a practical thought, not having it on a car is purely about money.

dgt · 28-05-2013 1:32pm

keithclancy wrote: »

Well that's assuming the car will:
A. Start in the first place (Flat Battery)
B. That the car will go into reverse in the first place.

You can keep that Auto hill starty bollocks ... more rubbish to go wrong.

+1

What use is it if I'm on an iced incline and I have no traction what so ever.....? And yes, it happened to me. Full control with a mechanical lever saved me and my car from a huge disaster, not some electronic tat I can't get a proper feel of.

Cheating on a driving test?

It's a gimmick for people who want to do less while driving. Breeds dependability and not the way to go, In My Honest Onion.

It can f*ck right off, I don't want it in any of my cars. Less electronics ftw

Conmaicne Mara · 28-05-2013 1:40pm

Rolling backwards isn't a problem. Rolling backwards and hitting something, or someone is.

Learn to do hill starts properly and that assist faff isn't necessary.

H3llR4iser · 28-05-2013 1:46pm

Pique, I'm not familiar with the specifics of the 159, but I am positive there must be a fuse you can pull somewhere to stop the pesky hill-start-assist thing from bothering you

Honestly I am fiercely against this kind of technology - "assists" that are not meant to improve the safety envelope of the car but promote incompetence through filling in for the driver's laziness.

Hill starts might be tricky to master for a learner driver, but an experienced driver shouldn't rely on an "assist". And if one really couldn't nail a proper slope start, there's the old and trusted handbrake technique

HandsomeDan · 28-05-2013 2:36pm

It's a good idea, but maybe needs some refinement.

I can see it becoming standard on cars in the future.

Maybe they will fit optional mock handbrakes for people who like to pull rods while they drive?

R.O.R · 28-05-2013 2:54pm

There are at least 3 different types of "Hill Start Assist" I can think of.

A lot will briefly hold the brakes on an incline so you don't roll backwards. No idea if this can be turned off. Only noticed this on a a couple of cars (think a new model C4 had it) as I don't usually roll back.

If you have an Electronic Handbrake (and I think that's what's in the 159, but it's been a while) then just driving forwards will release the handbrake without having to touch it. It's usually this system that bogs a car down, and needs more revs to get going than you'd usually require.

Third (and best option in my opninion) is a switchable system that needs activating via a button. Audi/VW and BMW use this system as a suppliment to the electronic handbrake. Activate the system and you don't need to use the electronic handbrake button. Handbrake goes on when you come to a complete halt, and disengages (without noticable resistance) when you drive off. Also stops the auto's creeping forward if you take your foot off the brake.

Valetta · 28-05-2013 3:54pm

I have a pesky foot operated "Parking Brake" so the "hold" function is a godsend not only for steep hill starts but normal stopping at lights etc.

crosstownk · 28-05-2013 4:27pm

R.O.R wrote: »

A lot will briefly hold the brakes on an incline so you don't roll backwards. No idea if this can be turned off. Only noticed this on a a couple of cars (think a new model C4 had it)

I have it on my C4 Picasso. It holds the brakes for 2 or 3 seconds when the car is on an incline. The car also has an electric handbrake but the Hill Start Assist uses the front brakes to hold the car whereas the handbrake holds the rear wheels.

I've never had even a hint of a stall from the Hill Start Assist. I actually find it to be a useful feature. It catches me out when I get into a car that doesn't have it!

However, if I had the hand brake applied and went to pull away quickly then I could see a stall happening.

Cuddlesworth · 28-05-2013 4:39pm

R.O.R wrote: »

There are at least 3 different types of "Hill Start Assist" I can think of.

A lot will briefly hold the brakes on an incline so you don't roll backwards. No idea if this can be turned off. Only noticed this on a a couple of cars (think a new model C4 had it) as I don't usually roll back.

If you have an Electronic Handbrake (and I think that's what's in the 159, but it's been a while) then just driving forwards will release the handbrake without having to touch it. It's usually this system that bogs a car down, and needs more revs to get going than you'd usually require.

Third (and best option in my opninion) is a switchable system that needs activating via a button. Audi/VW and BMW use this system as a suppliment to the electronic handbrake. Activate the system and you don't need to use the electronic handbrake button. Handbrake goes on when you come to a complete halt, and disengages (without noticable resistance) when you drive off. Also stops the auto's creeping forward if you take your foot off the brake.

Fourth.

Suburu forester. If the brake is pressed while the clutch is engaged the brakes remain in position until the clutch is released. Only active when there is a risk of rolling back, not forward.

Tea 1000 · 29-05-2013 1:05pm

I like it actually, particularly the Forester implementation of it. Works well.

Stinicker · 29-05-2013 4:07pm

Automatic cars have had this for years, the fact that it is being implemented in more manual cars shows that the market has eventually copped onto the fact that the day of the manual car is slowly coming to an end especially in more developed wealthy countries.

Hill start assist like this is being implemented because drivers want more of the advantages of automatic cars. Most modern hybrid and electric cars are automatic and the new automatic gearboxes offer greater fuel economy to their manual counterparts. When you think about it the typical manual clutch, brake and accelerator layout has been around for nearly 100 years and hasn't been changed much and with newer better technology eventually comes change. And when you factor in the better fuel economy and lower maintenance of automatics then the trend towards automatics will continue for those with money to spend on cars. Ireland's VRT system and paddy powerty spec econo junk boxes will see to it that the Manual is around for a long time but not in upper to higher end cars.

Mr.David · 29-05-2013 5:17pm

I think its a great feature, surprised at all the negative feedback here!

Have it on the E90. Of course a good driver doesn't "need" it, but if it makes life easier why not?!

The E90 system holds the brakes for 2 secs after you engage a gear and take your foot off the brake. Just makes it easier!

pred racer · 29-05-2013 5:28pm

Op, be careful with your hill start assist on the 159 (i have one too)
It only holds the car if the slope is steep enough, and then not for long.
It took me a while to get used to it but now its handy. Having said that, if it stopped working in the morning I wouldnt really care.

Hill Start Assist - Opinions?

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