Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

silentrust wrote: »

I'm afraid you're guilty of the Prosecutor's fallacy here -35 convictions for false allegations does not mean there were no more than 35, any more than 5,651 rape convictions means that there could have been no more than this.

I am a member of FACT (Falsely Accused Carers and Teachers), who in the twenty years they have been operational have helped to exonerate over 12,500 people falsely accused of rape and other forms of assault.

Note, these aren't people where there has been insufficient evidence to secure a conviction - the figure of 12,500 is where a person's innocence has been established beyond reasonable doubt e.g if it can be proven the accused was elsewhere at the time the accuser states they were victimised.

The reason we talk about false allegations is that they're very real and children in particular are naturally precocious and less likely to take responsibility for their actions.

Sometimes they lie about being assaulted as a bizarre way of expressing affection towards the accused, who may have rebuffed their advances previously.

Sometimes it is to draw attention to some very real abuse in their life e.g from a relative as they don't feel able to name the abuser themselves.

At other times it's simply a hysterical overreaction - in one case a colleague of mine attempted to pat a girl on the shoulder but she walked forward and his hand accidentally brushed her left breast and she falsely claimed it was a deliberate assault. Fortunately CCTV footage exonerated my colleague on that occasion but he quit teaching shortly afterwards because of all the hassle.

This is an issue more easily likened to fear of pedophillia accusations. I would argue it's a different one to that which has come up in this thread, brought on by the relationship between vunerable groups and those charged with their care, and societies view on it. I think the cited report is also valid in this instance as it notes that malicious intent isn't a core issue, rather third party reporting, the difficulty children and those requiring care have in stopping an accusation getting out of hand, and personal issues on the part of the accuser. I really don't see how it can be translated as support for the myth that sex between two consenting adults is likely to result in a regretful woman crying rape to save face.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

To be fair this particular argument was mainly coming from Millie, and no offense to her whatsoever but her attitude to it is extremely rare and unusual. Still waiting for an answer from her actually about how any guy would be able to hit on her without offending her, based on her posts here it seems downright impossible and if everyone had the same views as her the human race would never reproduce and we'd all be extinct.

There's no call for singling anyone out. Most people don't like unwanted sexual touching as described by Leggo. That's not a rare view. Millie and I among others were talking about Leggo's friend who habitually "grabs girls for unwelcome back hugs." that is a very specific type of situation and it is disingenuous to suggest that we are saying friends should not have any physical contact.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

for a lot of women (not all, a lot) the difference between a guy being labelled "creepy" or "cute/romantic" by his forwardness and actions is whether or not she's attracted to him, which he has absolutely no way of knowing before he tries it on.

No. This is a common and rather offensive notion. What makes a guy creepy is acting like a creep.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

so many women don't want to be up front and direct about these things, guys must continue to fly blind.

How would you suggest a guy psychically tells the difference?

Please stop pretending that guys are the victims here. We are being upfront and telling you not to grab girls from behind and instead of listening you're dismissing everything we say. This thread is full of posts explaining exactly why Leggo's friend's behaviour is creepy. He is doing what he wants to do without any regard for the girls' boundaries and that is creepy. Yet instead of taking on board the message you are complaining that it's up to the girls to stop him. Based on the reactions in this thread do you really not see how a lot of girls would not feel comfortable voicing their disapproval? Because the chances are instead of actually trying to understand why the girls don't want to be grabbed from behind, the lads will simply label them as hysterical, overreacting prudes.

If you are really concerned about coming off as creepy, just don't do creepy things. There is a vast number of advice websites etc that you can consult if you really don't understand the difference between chatting up a girl and being a creep. It's hard to have sympathy for your "I don't know how to behave with women" plea when it's so easy to learn.

starling wrote: »

There's no call for singling anyone out. Most people don't like unwanted sexual touching as described by Leggo. That's not a rare view. Millie and I among others were talking about Leggo's friend who habitually "grabs girls for unwelcome back hugs." that is a very specific type of situation and it is disingenuous to suggest that we are saying friends should not have any physical contact.

Some people were saying that. I actually agreed about Leggos particular incident, although I do take issue with not telling the guy that he's upsetting people and instead talking about it behind his back. That helps no one.

No. This is a common and rather offensive notion. What makes a guy creepy is acting like a creep.

And as this thread has demonstrated, what counts as creepy differs wildly from person to person. Did you read the part in which a close female friend of mine actually deliberately acts uninterested to play hard to get and then asks, baffled, why she's not being chased? This happens more often than you might think. Now in my case I just take signs of not being interested as actually not being interested, and a couple of times it's come back to me later that the girl was hoping I'd persist. Where's the logic there? I keep things simple by going for people who are upfront about how they feel but to deny that this kind of thing goes on is ridiculous.

Please stop pretending that guys are the victims here. We are being upfront and telling you not to grab girls from behind and instead of listening you're dismissing everything we say.

I'm not dismissing it. I already said I agreed about it, I was taking issue with not saying it to the guy's face and expecting him to realize it was upsetting someone.

This thread is full of posts explaining exactly why Leggo's friend's behaviour is creepy. He is doing what he wants to do without any regard for the girls' boundaries and that is creepy.

For the bajillionth time, I agree about that specific case, you're acting like Leggo's friend is the only example in this entire thread, it isn't.

Yet instead of taking on board the message you are complaining that it's up to the girls to stop him. Based on the reactions in this thread do you really not see how a lot of girls would not feel comfortable voicing their disapproval? Because the chances are instead of actually trying to understand why the girls don't want to be grabbed from behind, the lads will simply label them as hysterical, overreacting prudes.

Well maybe some douchebags would, I certainly wouldn't. If they cited it as an example of some kind of wider 'rape culture conspiracy' though I'd find that OTT, sure. They're two separate issues here, I have no problem with anyone having boundaries, I actually have them myself you know!

If you are really concerned about coming off as creepy, just don't do creepy things. There is a vast number of advice websites etc that you can consult if you really don't understand the difference between chatting up a girl and being a creep. It's hard to have sympathy for your "I don't know how to behave with women" plea when it's so easy to learn.

How many times have I said that I personally DON'T have a problem with any of this? Among my friends I seem to be one of the lucky few. That's all I'm saying. And it's absolutely true that some girls actually want to be chased while others don't, and there's no way for a guy to tell the difference until he's tried. It may be anecdotal evidence but I have a lot of girl friends who behave as the one I referenced above, playing hard to get and then expecting a guy to persist. That's complete BS, no guy is going to do that when the other distinct possibility is being labelled a creep. You can't have your cake and eat it.

You've basically misrepresented just about everything I've been saying in this thread. I never said Leggo was being unreasonable, I said not telling the guy was unreasonable. Nobody can read minds. If something bothers you, say so. Why is that such a complicated concept? It couldn't be any more simple. If you've never told someone that they're bothering you, don't go on the internet to tell others that they are. If I have a problem with someone I tell them to their face and we sort it out, talking about people and then pretending everything's ok when you're actually with them is utterly pointless and a complete waste of energy.

silentrust wrote: »

You also mention that women do often live in fear of violence, even if someone's behaviour isn't overtly threatening. We can accept this as an axiom and sympathise with this insofar as you have the right to feel safe when going about your business, socialising etc.

Nevertheless it's been commented earlier that women have an exaggerated fear of being raped by a stranger in that it's actually quite a rare crime. It's also unlikely that a man who touches a woman inappropriately in a public place will then proceed immediately to rape her

It is not uncommon for men who grope women or hassle them in public to react with aggression when challenged.
Women are constantly being given advice that paints all men as rapists, and now you're saying it's offensive when we try to guess who might be a rapist?
The fact is that you don't know whether a man is a rapist until he rapes you. There's no way to tell for sure which is why women need to be wary of the signs that someone might not respect your boundaries. Inappropriate touching is an example of ignoring someone's boundaries and is a big warning sign so it's not fair to criticise women for being suspicious of someone who does it.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

 
And as this thread has demonstrated, what counts as creepy differs wildly from person to person. Did you read the part in which a close female friend of mine actually deliberately acts uninterested to play hard to get and then asks, baffled, why she's not being chased? This happens more often than you might think.

Yeah I read that part but that's an entirely different situation in that the guy is just phoning her or not phoning her. If she is ignoring his calls and hasn't told him outright to stop calling her then it's no fair to call him a creep.
But most women don't play stupid games like that and tbh if I were a bloke I'd avoid any girl who tries to make me guess what she's thinking instead of just talking things out.
There are plenty of ways to educate oneself about what is and is not likely to ring warning bells in a woman's head so that you can have a reasonable idea of what will or won't get you labelled a creep. 
 

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Now in my case I just take signs of not being interested as actually not being interested, and a couple of times it's come back to me later that the girl was hoping I'd persist. Where's the logic there?

Their loss. You probably had a lucky escape.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Some people were saying that. I actually agreed about Leggos particular incident, although I do take issue with not telling the guy that he's upsetting people and instead talking about it behind his back. That helps no one.

Agreed. But the issue is waiting for the girls to do something about it rather than just saying "A lot of people don't like being grabbed from behind for unwelcome back hugs and you should stop doing it because everyone knows you as that guy" The Men Can Stop Rape campaign has loads of examples of how men can influence their peers to change their attitudes towards women, but many people refuse to contemplate the idea that one of their friends could be capable of rape or sexual assault. They stick to thinking about rapists as some kind of boogeymen in dirty macs hanging around alleys when the truth is that most women are raped by someone they know and trust, someone who has a job, friends, all that stuff and seems like a totally normal guy except that he doesn't respect women's boundaries.


Well maybe some douchebags would, I certainly wouldn't. If they cited it as an example of some kind of wider 'rape culture conspiracy' though I'd find that OTT, sure. They're two separate issues here, I have no problem with anyone having boundaries, I actually have them myself you know![/quote]
The way Leggo's friends actions illustrate rape culture is that Leggo and his mates are watching a bloke disregarding girls' boundaries and laughing it off. Normalising unwanted sexual contact and refusing to admit it's sexual assault is part of rape culture because it allows people to take women's boundaries less seriously.