Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

nacho libre · 27-05-2013 02:44PM

Obliq wrote: »

Hold your horses! In the context of the OP? "Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?" No, not if it was a female rapist, is what I meant. Rape is always rape, and the rapist IS always to blame.

i suspect not all men agree with that statement. consider the following hypothetical situation, if i told a group of male friends i was raped by a woman, they'd likely laugh with disbelief at the notion, their view would be i should be just thrilled something like that happened. you might say with that kind of response, what sort of friends are these to have, but i'd wager a lot of men viewing this thread would not see a woman having sex with you while your passed out a violation, especially if she was deemed to be very attractive.

Rosy Posy · 27-05-2013 02:46PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

This is bullshit. There is no rape culture in Ireland. No decent person in this country advocates or supports rape. Nobody is blaming the victim. Nobody is trivialising it.
"Slut-shaming" as you call it, is largely carried out by other women. As for jokes about rape, I dont know if you're referring to people talking amongst their friends or comedians. In the case of the formers, thats an issue of personal taste among friends, in the case of the latter, comedians have a right, if not a duty, to take about any and all issues.
Rape culture is a bullshit term that cannot be applied to this country and attempting to do so only mocks the experiences of women in other countries where there is this problem.
It seems we cannot have a sensible discussion on this because writing anything other than "rape bad, grrr" gets you labelled as some sort of pro-rape nutcase.

No, this is bullish!t.

Rape culture is being fearful of calling a rape a rape lest you be branded a false accuser.

Rape culture is people saying it wasn't really rape because you had previously had a one night stand with the perpetrator, because you passed out drunk, because you wore short skirts, because you weren't ashamed of your sexuality.

Rape culture is the community casting aspertions on the validity of the rape because you didn't report it.

Rape culture is being told that the guy who raped you actually really liked you and wanted to be your boyfriend, as if that would make you feel better about it.

All these things happened in Ireland. If you think there's no rape culture in Ireland then you've got your head in the sand.

hatrickpatrick · 27-05-2013 02:48PM

starling wrote: »

What incident are you talking about?
Many people have a false perception of the frequency of false accusations of rape. They are rarer than you think. Trying to accuse your rapist is hard enough when you were actually raped, very few people do it frivolously.

Nobody is expecting men to take responsibility for others' actions. We need them to take responsibility for their own actions.

This wasn't a false accusation - under that state's laws (in the US), if you were drunk at the time your consent is irrelevant and it's entirely the guy's fault for "taking advantage". They make no distinction between actual rape, which is if you're incoherent or passed out, and drunken consensual sex between two people who actively participate and then wake up the next day wishing they hadn't. And as always, since "rape" is defined as penetration instead of just intercourse, it's always the man's fault. I'm not talking about false accusations here, I'm talking about the fact that at the moment, technically speaking, being drunk is an excuse for withdrawing consent after the fact but only if you're female. Whereas any other action you take while drunk is your own stupid fault, such as getting into a fight and punching someone.

That definition itself annoys me as well. Penetration is irrelevant, rape should be defined as having sex with someone without their consent, period. A guy can have a hardon and still not actually want to have sex, the idea that sex = penetration effectively means that under the wording of the law, it's physically impossible for a guy to be raped unless by another guy.

bacon n eggs · 27-05-2013 02:51PM

Rape culture is being fearful of calling a rape a rape lest you be branded a false accuser.

Rape culture is people saying it wasn't really rape because you had previously had a one night stand with the perpetrator, because you passed out drunk, because you wore short skirts, because you weren't ashamed of your sexuality.

Rape culture is the community casting aspertions on the validity of the rape because you didn't report it.

Rape culture is being told that the guy who raped you actually really liked you and wanted to be your boyfriend, as if that would make you feel better about it.

All these things happened in Ireland. If you think there's no rape culture in Ireland then you've got your head in the sand.

Is this all steming from what happened to you is it all one event or in general?

Obliq · 27-05-2013 02:57PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I think the confusion is from you saying "depending on" rather than "regardless of whether..."

Former sounds like you're saying they may not be to blame depending on their gender!

Thanks! My phrasing is a bit iffy today for some reason.... sorry for any confusion

"regardless" is a good word.

starling · 27-05-2013 02:58PM

leggo wrote: »

We nicknamed one guy 'Back Hugs' because of how, when he gets drunk, he'll sometimes grab the girls for unwelcome back hugs for example.

Do you call that unacceptable?

Jfc, yes, that is unacceptable. He gives them "unwelcome" hugs??? That's sexual assualt. If you walk up to a woman in the street and start groping her you will be done for sexual assault. Why do you think it's okay for your friend to do it just because he's drunk?

leggo wrote: »

I mean, there are two ways of looking at it: one is that he can come across a bit creepy at times and show little regard for if they want his affection.

So he forces sexual contact on people when he's drunk...

leggo wrote: »

The other is that he could just be a sensitive guy who wants a hug from a friend when he's drunk.

....and doesn't GAF if the friend actualy wants him hugging them....

leggo wrote: »

If it's the latter, which is extremely possible, we can't accuse him of being rapey out straight or tell him his behaviour is unacceptable.

Why not?

leggo wrote: »

It's not unacceptable if there's no malice behind it and no harm done, ultimately.

So it's ok to assualt someone if you don't mean it in a bad way....WTF
You're not the one who gets to decide "no harm done".

leggo wrote: »

I'm also not in any position of authority over him. I can't tell him what is or isn't acceptable behaviour and expect to be listened to. The girls could, though, since it's their boundaries being breached.

No. No no no no no. You can stop enabling him. You can tell him you don't actually think it's okay. You can stop making a joke of it with nicknames.

Why is it up to the girls to stop him when he's much more likely to listen to his
male peers?

You are doing exactly what all the posters arguing against you have been trying to tell you about. You are putting all the responsibility on the victims to stop this happening to them and thereby absolving yourself of any responsibility for doing anything to make the situation better. You are focusing on the relatively rare boogeyman rapist in the alley and ignoring the guy right in front of you who doesn't care about women's boundaries.

Your friend does this because he knows he will get away with it, because you laugh his behaviour off. You could be changing that but instead you are letting it go on and leaving it up to his victims to stop him. How is that working, so far?

starling · 27-05-2013 03:00PM

bacon n eggs wrote: »

Is this all steming from what happened to you is it all one event or in general?

Don't start trying to imply she has a personal bias, please. All of the things she described are the norm when a rape occurs in this country, not the exception.

bacon n eggs · 27-05-2013 03:01PM

I realise it's the norm I was curious.

ahnowbrowncow · 27-05-2013 03:02PM

starling wrote: »

Don't start trying to imply she has a personal bias, please. All of the things she described are the norm when a rape occurs in this country, not the exception.

Really, do you have proof or just more anecdotal evidence?

Obliq · 27-05-2013 03:02PM

nacho libre wrote: »

i suspect not all men agree with that statement. consider the following hypothetical situation, if i told a group of male friends i was raped by a woman, they'd likely laugh with disbelief at the notion, their view would be i should be just thrilled something like that happened. you might say with that kind of response, what sort of friends are these to have, but i'd wager a lot of men viewing this thread would not see a woman having sex with you while your passed out a violation, especially if she was deemed to be very attractive.

Don't know why they wouldn't agree with the statement, but I imagine you're right about the possibility of it not being taken seriously enough. It comes down to consent in the end. It probably doesn't happen to many men, but if consent is not given, then it's rape.

Lyaiera · 27-05-2013 03:03PM

bluewolf wrote: »

I think the confusion is from you saying "depending on" rather than "regardless of whether..."

Former sounds like you're saying they may not be to blame depending on their gender!

Yeah, the "depending on" totally threw me. I see you meant something else by it.

Crooked Jack · 27-05-2013 03:16PM

Rosy Posy wrote: »

No, this is bullish!t.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Rape culture is being fearful of calling a rape a rape lest you be branded a false accuser.

Surely that's for the courts to decide

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Rape culture is people saying it wasn't really rape because you had previously had a one night stand with the perpetrator, because you passed out drunk, because you wore short skirts, because you weren't ashamed of your sexuality.

I would be shocked/appalled if the average Irish person held this opinion.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Rape culture is the community casting aspertions on the validity of the rape because you didn't report it.

That is understandable. Sure people are going to be confused if you claim you were raped but do not report it regardless of your reasons for not reporting it.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Rape culture is being told that the guy who raped you actually really liked you and wanted to be your boyfriend, as if that would make you feel better about it.

No it isnt, that's just a level of dickheadedness I cant even think of a name for.

Rosy Posy wrote: »

All these things happened in Ireland. If you think there's no rape culture in Ireland then you've got your head in the sand.

All these things happen in Ireland. They are, however, the actions and opinions of individuals and/or an extreme minority of people, they are in no way indicative of the Irish mentality when it comes to rape. There is no "rape culture" in Ireland and I find the suggestion that there is personally offensive.
There are scumbags who rape people. They do not represent Ireland and the vast majority of Irish people would love to see them locked up (personally in the case of repeat offenders I'm in favour of chemical castration.)

There is a serious problem with the way courts deal with rapists. Again, that is a fault within our justice system that needs to be addressed, it is not indicative of rape culture.

There is a problem with rape in Ireland and everything that can be done to wipe it out should be. However, using hysterical terms like "rape culture" where they obviously do not apply is not helpful and only ends up causing arguments like this, thereby distracting from the real issue.

Similarly, branding all men rapists in waiting (as some posters on here, not you specifically, seem to be doing) does not help, especially as there is another side to this argument with consequences that are just as serious.

For example, falsely accusing someone of rape has the potential to ruin someone's life and contrary to what you said about a community casting doubt on someone's claim of being raped, I have seen the effects of a false claim. Whether it's reported or not all it takes is the suggestion that someone has done something like that for them to be completely shunned by a community.

I am also very unsettled by some of the attitudes to people's alcohol consumption here. Two drunk people going to bed together and then one of them later regretting it is a bad decision, it is not rape. There seem to be a few people on here insinuating otherwise.

kunst nugget · 27-05-2013 03:18PM

Rosy Posy wrote: »

Rape culture is the community casting aspertions on the validity of the rape because you didn't report it.

Not wanting to sound bad here but naturally people are going to wonder about the validity of a rape claim if it has never been reported.

Crooked Jack · 27-05-2013 03:20PM

starling wrote: »

So he forces sexual contact on people when he's drunk...

This type of attitude, more than anything I have read on this thread, trivialises rape. How do you expect people to take rape and rape claims seriously when you're calling a drunken hug "forced sexual contact?"

B0jangles · 27-05-2013 03:27PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

This type of attitude, more than anything I have read on this thread, trivialises rape. How do you expect people to take rape and rape claims seriously when you're calling a drunken hug "forced sexual contact?"

Ok consider this, if someone said we had "a Culture of Violence" where all kinds of violence happened a lot, all the way from lower level acts like a slap all the way up to murder; would you respond to someone saying "slapping someone across the face is part of a culture of violence" with:

"This type of attitude, more than anything I have read on this thread, trivialises murder. How do you expect people to take murder and murder accusations seriously when you're calling a slap in the face "part of a culture of violence"?"

Obliq · 27-05-2013 03:28PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

I am also very unsettled by some of the attitudes to people's alcohol consumption here. Two drunk people going to bed together and then one of them later regretting it is a bad decision, it is not rape. There seem to be a few people on here insinuating otherwise.

Two drunk people going to bed together, all goes as it normally does and perhaps one or both regret it later is not rape, no.

Two drunk people going to bed together, man goes further in some way than woman wishes. Woman says stop and he refuses to stop, that's rape. Drunk or not, that's rape.

starling · 27-05-2013 03:28PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

This type of attitude, more than anything I have read on this thread, trivialises rape. How do you expect people to take rape and rape claims seriously when you're calling a drunken hug "forced sexual contact?"

Leggo says the actions are unwelcome. He realises the women's boundaries are being ignored but doesn't think there's any harm being done, and if the girls have a problem it's up to them to put a stop to it.
It's unwelcome therefore it's forced. And from what Leggo says this guy doesn't go around doing to the men, just the women. He's sexually assaulting women but nobody is taking it seriously because he's drunk and because those around him don't understand consent issues.
It's leggo and the guy's other friends who are trivialising sexual assault. I'm not calling the guy a rapist. I'm calling what he does sexual assaut because that's what it is.

wonderfulname · 27-05-2013 03:31PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Not wanting to sound bad here but naturally people are going to wonder about the validity of a rape claim if it has never been reported.

No they're not. I certainly wouldn't. No cases I personally know of have been reported, and I would never question them, quite the opposite in fact, I've reinforced the validity of the victims feelings as I am aware of the level of misplaced guilt and societal pressures in such cases.

I don't know why I read this thread, it's another topic where I find many common responses quite downheartening, particularly the focus on the victim and their apparent role, and the lack of interest or compassion regarding the impact of rape on a person. That's a general observation btw, and not aimed at the quoted poster.

kylith · 27-05-2013 03:33PM

leggo wrote: »

You see, they haven't done anything but arouse suspicion. The way I'd tend to highlight these awkward issues myself, and have done, is to bring it out in the open through joking or slagging. We nicknamed one guy 'Back Hugs' because of how, when he gets drunk, he'll sometimes grab the girls for unwelcome back hugs for example.

Do you call that unacceptable?

Yes. If the hugs are unwelcome then it is unacceptable to be grabbing people.

I mean, there are two ways of looking at it: one is that he can come across a bit creepy at times and show little regard for if they want his affection. The other is that he could just be a sensitive guy who wants a hug from a friend when he's drunk. If it's the latter, which is extremely possible, we can't accuse him of being rapey out straight or tell him his behaviour is unacceptable.

Yes you can, you're supposed to be his friends so if you can't tell him he's being creepy who can? Take him aside and say 'Mate, I understand that you get kind of handsy when you're drunk and just want a hug, but you're creeping people out. The people you're grabbing don't want you to and, well... you come across as a bit rapey when you do it. Try not to do it in future, ok?'

It's not unacceptable if there's no malice behind it and no harm done, ultimately. But it is worth noting for the future and taking precautions about.

So if I got in a fight with someone, hit them in the head, and they died do you think that'd be no harm done because I hadn't meant to kill them?

Just because someone doesn't mean to do something doesn't mean that it's then OK if they do it. Your doesn't mean to come across as rapey and creep people out, but he does, and it's not ok that he does and it means that you need to tell him when he's being like that.

I'm also not in any position of authority over him. I can't tell him what is or isn't acceptable behaviour and expect to be listened to. The girls could, though, since it's their boundaries being breached.

You can tell him what behaviour is or isn't acceptable in your social group. If you tell him to knock it off and he doesn't, or he makes jokes about it, then you can't force him to behave but you can tell him that you're not going to be known as the mate of the guy who gets creepy-handsy when he's drunk and you won't be hanging around with him any more. Trust me, he will listen to you more than he will listen to the women.

It is very intimidating for a woman when she is grabbed by a man and has unwelcome attention forced on her; if she kicks up a fuss then she's a 'prude/frigid/no fun' according to his mates (mates just like you) because he's 'harmless' and 'he just gets handsy when he's had a few', or maybe the guy who's grabbed her will get aggressive if she tries to get rid of him so she just goes quiet and hopes he'll leave her alone without too much of an assault.

Cop yourself on, and tell your mate to cop himself on too.

Links234 · 27-05-2013 03:35PM

This thread is an example of rape culture for crying out loud :mad:

all threads like this make my blood boil, seriously...

kunst nugget · 27-05-2013 03:38PM

wonderfulname wrote: »

No they're not. I certainly wouldn't. No cases I personally know of have been reported, and I would never question them, quite the opposite in fact, I've reinforced the validity of the victims feelings as I am aware of the level of misplaced guilt and societal pressures in such cases.

I don't know why I read this thread, it's another topic where I find many common responses quite downheartening, particularly the focus on the victim and their apparent role, and the lack of interest or compassion regarding the impact of rape on a person. That's a general observation btw, and not aimed at the quoted poster.

So what happens when a false claim is made against somebody?

Obliq · 27-05-2013 03:39PM

For what it's worth, I've seen plenty of women getting "a bit handsey" in an unwelcome fashion around fellas in bars too. I'd have little difficulty in telling a woman she's way over the top, making a show of herself and him, and he's only being polite by not having a go at her about it.

kunst nugget · 27-05-2013 03:42PM

Links234 wrote: »

This thread is an example of rape culture for crying out loud :mad:

all threads like this make my blood boil, seriously...

That's a ludicrous claim.

Lyaiera · 27-05-2013 03:48PM

kunst nugget wrote: »

Not wanting to sound bad here but naturally people are going to wonder about the validity of a rape claim if it has never been reported.

Tangential story time. I'm transgender. As a teenager I was doing typical teenage boy things and wondering why it wasn't working for me and why I was miserable. Typical boy things included having a girlfriend. I was 15, I didn't want sex but I enjoyed the emotional closeness of kissing and cuddling. I had never really felt sexual attraction to anyone so I didn't know that it was considered normal for a guy to move from kissing to sex and other stuff. I didn't know/couldn't accept I was trans and I just thought that some day I would want sex (very innocent, but so what.) My girlfriend did want sex but we never really talked about it. We were in a friend's room one time kissing, she straddled me, unzipped my pants and took my quite flaccid penis out and started stuffing it into her vagina. I had previously stopped her and buttoned up my pants, but she kept going (in the end she half unbuttoned my pants and pulled my penis out between buttons which hurt like hell and I didn't know what to do.) I had told her to stop and that I didn't want to do this but I didn't even consider unwrapping her legs and pushing her away because violence isn't really my thing. Eventually I wriggled away and left (and suffered a battery of questions from inquisitive friends.)

I've only figured out my gender issues in the past year or so. Thinking back to being a teenager I was quite messed up because I couldn't understand who or what I wanted. I did know I wasn't ready for sex. Theoretically I wanted to have sex as I considered myself a normal person, I just knew I wasn't ready for it at the time. I did all I was supposed to do, I made clear that I didn't want to have sex, I told her to stop, I said, "No." I didn't think much about it for years. When I did I thought there was something wrong with me, that it was my fault for being weird and not wanting sex. I calm to terms with what happened recently and spoke to my mother about it and her reaction was instant, "You said, 'no.' No means no, she should have stopped, I'm sorry that happened to you." It's a simple statement that's quite direct but it's not always clear. No does mean no, but there are so many variations and situations, there's so much underlying reasoning and thought about how someone deals with something like that that you saying "No" doesn't immediately link up with the idea of rape. I felt guilty that I had let my girlfriend down, that I had done something wrong never even considering that she should have respected my wishes.

We broke up a few days after that and it's taken me 13 years to even think about it with any clarity. People don't always know what to do about something that happened to them, let alone telling someone else about what something that is hugely personal and embarrassing.

starling · 27-05-2013 03:48PM

Obliq wrote: »

For what it's worth, I've seen plenty of women getting "a bit handsey" in an unwelcome fashion around fellas in bars too. I'd have little difficulty in telling a woman she's way over the top, making a show of herself and him, and he's only being polite by not having a go at her about it.

It's not the kind of thing you can really compare by simply saying "if it were the other way around...."
The men you're talking about have probably not spent their whole lives being constantly warned about the danger of being raped. They're probably not afraid the women are going to rape them. They're probably physically stronger than the women and well able to defend themselves.
When a man completely ignores your boundaries that's a pretty big warning sign that he's going to keep on ignoring them. If he puts his hands on you without even looking for permission he's probably not going to stop when you say "no."

Obliq · 27-05-2013 03:49PM

Links234 wrote: »

This thread is an example of rape culture for crying out loud :mad:

all threads like this make my blood boil, seriously...

I can't agree with this. Talking about rape does not make it "rape culture". There's some folk have commented and I don't agree with them, but there isn't one comment afaik that downplays the seriousness of the issue. Some seem to be confused about how much a woman should have to try and protect herself, but all have agreed that rapists are to blame, no matter how few clothes someone is wearing.

leggo · 27-05-2013 03:49PM

On the phone now, so can't address this as thoroughly as I'd like to. But just to point out that people are adding extra elements to my own story that simply aren't there:

• He's not 'grabbing randomers' and forcing them to hug. He's hugging female friends who are just as likely to be happy to hug him at other times. As far as I can see, it's just that he misjudges situations sometimes.

• He's also not grabbing people when he knows they don't want it. Like I said, it's just as likely that they might be well up for a hug at the time. I think he's just not very self-aware in reading the situation, especially while drunk.

So for people to call this all 'sexual assault' is ridiculously unhelpful. Perhaps there is scope for doing more, however when you consider that you've arrived at the sexual assault conclusion by embellishing several crucial elements into my story, then I'm sorry but I can't take your point as seriously as I would if you'd dealt with the story at face value.

vitani · 27-05-2013 03:50PM

Leggo, you and your backhugging friend weren't in a club in Temple Bar last weekend, were you? Some random guy grabbed me from behind and wrapped his arms around me. I think he thought he was being friendly, and one of my friends couldn't understand why I told him where to go. Apparently he was goodlooking. :rolleyes:

Aside from that, I can understand the point you've been making and I don't think it's victim-blaming. It's actually coming across to me like quite a balanced viewpoint.

A few years back, I accepted a lift home from someone I didn't know very well. It didn't end pleasantly, although I consider myself lucky that he eventually did stop. I put the blame for his actions well and truly at his feet.

However, I do recognise that accepting a lift from him was not a wise choice and I've avoided putting myself in similar situations since.

I can't control what rapists do. I can't make them not rape. However, I can control what I do and I can try and limit how vulnerable I am, depending on the choices I make. It's not about blame or avoiding it, for me. It's about trying to keep myself safe.

Victim blaming drives me up the wall. When my mother heard about that poor girl who was murdered in Japan, her first reaction was 'why do young girls go off with blokes they don't know?' I hate that this kind of attitude exists. However, there's a difference between advising 'don't walk down that alley' and saying after the fact 'why did you walk down that alley when you knew it wasn't safe?' I think the first is acceptable, but the second isn't. The second is blaming.

starling · 27-05-2013 03:55PM

Lyaiera wrote: »

words

I'm sorry that happened Lyaiera. Your mum was right. And none of it was your fault. Fair play to you for speaking up about it.
Nobody who understands anything about the nature of rape, or how it affects its victims, really finds it surprising that a lot of people don't report or that they feel like they can't call what happened 'rape' because it didn't fit in with the common misconceptions of what rape is.
Anyone who says "It wasn't rape because I would report it if I was raped and the victim in this case didn't immediately go to the police so obviously there was no rape" just doesn't know what they're talking about. We can do what we can do try to change their misunderstandings, but don't let them get you down. Things are improving. Slowly, but they're improving.

Obliq · 27-05-2013 03:56PM

starling wrote: »

It's not the kind of thing you can really compare by simply saying "if it were the other way around...."
The men you're talking about have probably not spent their whole lives being constantly warned about the danger of being raped. They're probably not afraid the women are going to rape them. They're probably physically stronger than the women and well able to defend themselves.
When a man completely ignores your boundaries that's a pretty big warning sign that he's going to keep on ignoring them. If he puts his hands on you without even looking for permission he's probably not going to stop when you say "no."

And that's the problem right there. I disagree that a man who does ignore your boundaries in this way is probably not going to stop when you say "no". It's far more likely that they would stop. I do agree that women are very fearful of the man not stopping. Men need to understand that aspect of it - there is fear involved. Huge fear, and not without good reason. A man getting handsey does inspire more fear than a woman, but I illustrated that women do it too because while there maybe little difference in how far man/woman would go with the unwelcome physical attention, women are afraid of it and rightly so.

Is rape always rape? Are men always to blame?

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