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Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,552 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    "In addition teacher are aggrieved that after pay cuts averaging 14% and significant additional work and flexibility under the Croke Park agreement, the Government is again targeting teachers and other public sector workers" - ASTI


    There is nothing factually wrong there but it gives an impression to many unfamilar with the situation that PS wages have been stagnant since the pay cuts whereas increments continued to be paid at the beginning of the crisis and throughout. No public servant is working with a salary of 14% less than they had in 2009 - a huge number (perhaps a majority) would likely be back at 2009 levels by now and some even higher.

    Additional work an flexibility is pretty much the least that could be expected. I admit that a general term like that could mean simply a bit of extra paper work for some staff whilst for others it can mean additional kids in a classroom or more patients on a trolly.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,904 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    noodler wrote: »
    No public servant is working with a salary of 14% less than they had in 2009 - a huge number (perhaps a majority) would likely be back at 2009 levels by now and some even higher.

    sorry but that is incorrect

    There are plenty of people who have recieved no increment since the cut


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,552 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Riskymove wrote: »
    sorry but that is incorrect

    There are plenty of people who have recieved no increment since the cut

    I said "a huge number (perhaps a majority)".


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,018 ✭✭✭creedp


    There is nothing factually wrong there but it gives an impression to many unfamilar with the situation that PS wages have been stagnant since the pay cuts whereas increments continued to be paid at the beginning of the crisis and throughout. No public servant is working with a salary of 14% less than they had in 2009 - a huge number (perhaps a majority) would likely be back at 2009 levels by now and some even higher.

    This is factually wrong


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,904 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    noodler wrote: »
    I said "a huge number (perhaps a majority)".

    you said "no worker" would be 14% less

    some have seen no increase since the cut so therefore would still be down the 14% (or whatever)


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    No public servant is working with a salary of 14% less than they had in 2009

    Some are working with salaries 16% or 18% less than in 2009.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭vinylbomb


    creedp wrote: »
    There's fighting talk bud!

    Not really, just common sense.
    The MNCs employ 200k people directly, and a big chunk of the population depend on them indirectly.
    If they go the economy will totally collapse, and there will be no arguments about cutting jobs in the PS then.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,018 ✭✭✭creedp


    vinylbomb wrote: »
    Not really, just common sense.
    The MNCs employ 200k people directly, and a big chunk of the population depend on them indirectly.
    If they go the economy will totally collapse, and there will be no arguments about cutting jobs in the PS then.


    I agree with you, if the MNC en masse left in the morning, Ireland would face a huge problem and that would have serious knook-on effects for everyone in the country. Lets just hope for all of our sakes that doesn't happen.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,552 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    creedp wrote: »
    This is factually wrong
    Riskymove wrote: »
    you said "no worker" would be 14% less

    some have seen no increase since the cut so therefore would still be down the 14% (or whatever)
    ardmacha wrote: »
    Some are working with salaries 16% or 18% less than in 2009.

    Sorry, I apologise.

    I see now where my error was.

    There are PS workers with increment scales that mean they likely haven't had an increment in four years.

    They are most likely people earning well over 60K in higher positions in the service but obviously they exist.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,904 ✭✭✭✭Riskymove


    noodler wrote: »
    They are most likely people earning well over 60K in higher positions in the service but obviously they exist.

    wrong again, plenty of people on the max of scales at lower grades

    obviously you are not that interested in facts and more about getting digs in


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,552 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Riskymove wrote: »
    wrong again, plenty of people on the max of scales at lower grades

    obviously you are not that interested in facts and more about getting digs in

    True again. Although I said "they are most likely".

    The thrust of my point remains.

    A huge number of Public servants are not on salaries 14% lower than they were in 2009.

    When you address me, try to avoid making presumptions about my motivations for posting. Thanks.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 712 ✭✭✭BOHSBOHS


    official stats from PER show only 36% of civil servants are due an increment in 2013 (....was 43% in 2009)

    hardly a majority now noodler


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    No public servant is working with a salary of 14% less than they had in 2009 - a huge number (perhaps a majority) would likely be back at 2009 levels by now and some even higher.

    Additional work an flexibility is pretty much the least that could be expected. I admit that a general term like that could mean simply a bit of extra paper work for some staff whilst for others it can mean additional kids in a classroom or more patients on a trolly.

    The bit in bold is the original statement that people are quibbling with.
    noodler wrote: »
    I said "a huge number (perhaps a majority)".

    No, you said "no public servant"
    noodler wrote: »
    Sorry, I apologise.

    I see now where my error was.

    There are PS workers with increment scales that mean they likely haven't had an increment in four years.

    They are most likely people earning well over 60K in higher positions in the service but obviously they exist.

    You moved from "no public servant" to "most likely people earning well over 60k in high positions"

    noodler wrote: »
    True again. Although I said "they are most likely".

    The thrust of my point remains.

    A huge number of Public servants are not on salaries 14% lower than they were in 2009.

    When you address me, try to avoid making presumptions about my motivations for posting. Thanks.

    Finally, "no public servants" has turned into "a huge number" which is sufficiently imprecise to mean anything from 1,000 public servants to 99% of public servants are not on salaries 14% lower than they were in 2009.

    Do you have any piece of information to back up what you are saying? Or is it hyperbole?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭Gryire


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Some are working with salaries 16% or 18% less than in 2009.

    No public servant has had their core pay cut by 16%


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 826 ✭✭✭geeksauce


    Wow, what an utter load of nonsense.

    What you do have right is the complete job insecurity in the private sector. Whether employed by MNCs or indigienous companies. If they move out, you lose a job. If they are making losses, wage reductions and job cuts are inevitable. A public sector job with complete job security and pension entitlements certainly is a prized possession.

    I assume you work in the Public Sector if you believe a job there is such a prized possession.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,188 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    "In addition teacher are aggrieved that after pay cuts averaging 14% and significant additional work and flexibility under the Croke Park agreement, the Government is again targeting teachers and other public sector workers" - ASTI

    'Significant additional work and flexibility' As a parent of primary school children I've been trying to figure out what additional work and flexibility we've had. Parent/Teacher meetings are now outside school hours - 10 extra hours a year at most. They don't get their planning day(s). And that's it I think. No extra teaching, holidays are just as long. Have teachers had it the easiest from Croke Park or do they just protest the most?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    No public servant has had their core pay cut by 16%

    here we go again.....


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,578 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    Godge wrote: »
    Finally, "no public servants" has turned into "a huge number" which is sufficiently imprecise to mean anything from 1,000 public servants to 99% of public servants are not on salaries 14% lower than they were in 2009.

    Do you have any piece of information to back up what you are saying? Or is it hyperbole?

    Godge,just because he has decided to get involved at this stage,he can't be expected to produce any proof.
    Sure,if you read the entire thread,that type of proof has been provided loads of times.
    BTW - I must be as rare as rocking horse sh!t as I have had no increment since 2007 and I don't earn €60k.
    Who would have thought,eh?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    Vizzy wrote: »
    BTW - I must be as rare as rocking horse sh!t as I have had no increment since 2007 and I don't earn €60k.
    Who would have thought,eh?


    Be careful before someone spots that, porbably impose and extra 20% cut on you personally:D


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,578 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    Godge wrote: »
    Be careful before someone spots that, porbably impose and extra 20% cut on you personally:D

    You wuz lucky.!!
    When I was young we used dreeem of 20% paycut.
    We used get up before we went to bed to be beaten by "ani PS"


    And you tell that to young people today..................and they won't believe you :D


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,403 ✭✭✭doc_17


    "In addition teacher are aggrieved that after pay cuts averaging 14% and significant additional work and flexibility under the Croke Park agreement, the Government is again targeting teachers and other public sector workers" - ASTI

    'Significant additional work and flexibility' As a parent of primary school children I've been trying to figure out what additional work and flexibility we've had. Parent/Teacher meetings are now outside school hours - 10 extra hours a year at most. They don't get their planning day(s). And that's it I think. No extra teaching, holidays are just as long. Have teachers had it the easiest from Croke Park or do they just protest the most?

    Try figuring a little harder. I gave you a hint by highlighting a wee bit of it for you!

    Those pesky teachers!!!!!!!!!!!


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    "In addition teacher are aggrieved that after pay cuts averaging 14% and significant additional work and flexibility under the Croke Park agreement, the Government is again targeting teachers and other public sector workers" - ASTI

    'Significant additional work and flexibility' As a parent of primary school children I've been trying to figure out what additional work and flexibility we've had. Parent/Teacher meetings are now outside school hours - 10 extra hours a year at most. They don't get their planning day(s). And that's it I think. No extra teaching, holidays are just as long. Have teachers had it the easiest from Croke Park or do they just protest the most?


    33 hours extra planning a year. This cannot be in contact with students so can't even be used for teaching. Pen pushing exercise resulting in ridiculous meetings in school to try and fill them.

    Huge changes to the junior cert curriculum starting next September including grading of exams by teachers. Little or no training/advice on how this is happening.

    Enormous increase in the amount of paperwork required by teachers including increased inspection. I'll have to root out the study but Irish teachers are now one of the most inspected teachers in Europe.

    Literacy and numeracy plan requiring a very heavy workload of documented evidence by schools being implemented without any provision for it in time.

    Moratorium on posts meaning that many years heads, exam secretaries etc doing large amounts of work outside their contact hours are doing it voluntarily on their own time

    No addressing of the problem with shortened contracts and serious lack of job security particularly at second level where there is no panel.

    No organising of a voluntary redeployment panel.

    Many of these issues are having an impact on students that parents seem to be oblivious to. For example Issues with tiny part time contracts are resulting in school changing by teachers trying to get an extra hour or two. I picked up a junior cert class this year and I am their fifth teacher. This is happening in schools all over their country and is having a major impact on students because of the chopping and changing


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,359 ✭✭✭✭Galwayguy35


    So what do people think will happen now, will the teachers strike?

    Public Sector strikes wouldn't affect me personally but I imagine it won't be too popular with parents.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,188 ✭✭✭Gloomtastic!


    33 hours extra planning a year. This cannot be in contact with students so can't even be used for teaching. Pen pushing exercise resulting in ridiculous meetings in school to try and fill them.

    Huge changes to the junior cert curriculum starting next September including grading of exams by teachers. Little or no training/advice on how this is happening.

    Enormous increase in the amount of paperwork required by teachers including increased inspection. I'll have to root out the study but Irish teachers are now one of the most inspected teachers in Europe.

    Literacy and numeracy plan requiring a very heavy workload of documented evidence by schools being implemented without any provision for it in time.

    Moratorium on posts meaning that many years heads, exam secretaries etc doing large amounts of work outside their contact hours are doing it voluntarily on their own time

    No addressing of the problem with shortened contracts and serious lack of job security particularly at second level where there is no panel.

    No organising of a voluntary redeployment panel.

    Many of these issues are having an impact on students that parents seem to be oblivious to. For example Issues with tiny part time contracts are resulting in school changing by teachers trying to get an extra hour or two. I picked up a junior cert class this year and I am their fifth teacher. This is happening in schools all over their country and is having a major impact on students because of the chopping and changing

    And primary school teachers, how have they been affected?


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 2,359 ✭✭✭whiteandlight


    Not a primary teacher so wouldn't be sure!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 251 ✭✭Gryire


    So what do people think will happen now, will the teachers strike?

    Public Sector strikes wouldn't affect me personally but I imagine it won't be too popular with parents.

    No they won't strike. Irish teachers are the most highly paid in Europe and are the biggest moaners.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    BOHSBOHS wrote: »
    official stats from PER show only 36% of civil servants are due an increment in 2013 (....was 43% in 2009)

    hardly a majority now noodler

    Thats an interesting stat. Only 36% are due increments and that figure is dropping year on year while there are no new recruits.

    Poor Noodler has had his arse scalded and has scampered off.. hopefully to brush up on some facts :D


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Gryire wrote: »
    No they won't strike. Irish teachers are the most highly paid in Europe and are the biggest moaners.
    +1. They will not strike in late June or July anyway. Teachers in England do not get holidays until mid July. Our lot have it relatively easy.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,274 ✭✭✭Good loser


    ardmacha wrote: »
    Some are working with salaries 16% or 18% less than in 2009.

    Pay and pensions in the Public Service: 2008 €18.753 bn

    2011 €17.127 bn


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Good loser wrote:

    Quote:
    Originally Posted by ardmacha
    Some are working with salaries 16% or 18% less than in 2009.

    Pay and pensions in the Public Service: 2008 €18.753 bn

    2011 €17.127 bn

    What is the purpose of this post?


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