Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

noodler · 24-05-2013 10:30AM

"In addition teacher are aggrieved that after pay cuts averaging 14% and significant additional work and flexibility under the Croke Park agreement, the Government is again targeting teachers and other public sector workers" - ASTI

There is nothing factually wrong there but it gives an impression to many unfamilar with the situation that PS wages have been stagnant since the pay cuts whereas increments continued to be paid at the beginning of the crisis and throughout. No public servant is working with a salary of 14% less than they had in 2009 - a huge number (perhaps a majority) would likely be back at 2009 levels by now and some even higher.

Additional work an flexibility is pretty much the least that could be expected. I admit that a general term like that could mean simply a bit of extra paper work for some staff whilst for others it can mean additional kids in a classroom or more patients on a trolly.

Riskymove · 24-05-2013 10:35AM

noodler wrote: »

No public servant is working with a salary of 14% less than they had in 2009 - a huge number (perhaps a majority) would likely be back at 2009 levels by now and some even higher.

sorry but that is incorrect

There are plenty of people who have recieved no increment since the cut

noodler · 24-05-2013 11:03AM

Riskymove wrote: »

sorry but that is incorrect

There are plenty of people who have recieved no increment since the cut

I said "a huge number (perhaps a majority)".

creedp · 24-05-2013 11:07AM

There is nothing factually wrong there but it gives an impression to many unfamilar with the situation that PS wages have been stagnant since the pay cuts whereas increments continued to be paid at the beginning of the crisis and throughout. No public servant is working with a salary of 14% less than they had in 2009 - a huge number (perhaps a majority) would likely be back at 2009 levels by now and some even higher.

This is factually wrong

Riskymove · 24-05-2013 11:13AM

noodler wrote: »

I said "a huge number (perhaps a majority)".

you said "no worker" would be 14% less

some have seen no increase since the cut so therefore would still be down the 14% (or whatever)

ardmacha · 24-05-2013 12:18PM

No public servant is working with a salary of 14% less than they had in 2009

Some are working with salaries 16% or 18% less than in 2009.

vinylbomb · 24-05-2013 12:32PM

creedp wrote: »

There's fighting talk bud!

Not really, just common sense.
The MNCs employ 200k people directly, and a big chunk of the population depend on them indirectly.
If they go the economy will totally collapse, and there will be no arguments about cutting jobs in the PS then.

creedp · 24-05-2013 12:43PM

vinylbomb wrote: »

Not really, just common sense.
The MNCs employ 200k people directly, and a big chunk of the population depend on them indirectly.
If they go the economy will totally collapse, and there will be no arguments about cutting jobs in the PS then.

I agree with you, if the MNC en masse left in the morning, Ireland would face a huge problem and that would have serious knook-on effects for everyone in the country. Lets just hope for all of our sakes that doesn't happen.

noodler · 24-05-2013 03:55PM

creedp wrote: »

This is factually wrong

Riskymove wrote: »

you said "no worker" would be 14% less

some have seen no increase since the cut so therefore would still be down the 14% (or whatever)

ardmacha wrote: »

Some are working with salaries 16% or 18% less than in 2009.

Sorry, I apologise.

I see now where my error was.

There are PS workers with increment scales that mean they likely haven't had an increment in four years.

They are most likely people earning well over 60K in higher positions in the service but obviously they exist.

Riskymove · 24-05-2013 04:05PM

noodler wrote: »

They are most likely people earning well over 60K in higher positions in the service but obviously they exist.

wrong again, plenty of people on the max of scales at lower grades

obviously you are not that interested in facts and more about getting digs in

noodler · 24-05-2013 04:18PM

Riskymove wrote: »

wrong again, plenty of people on the max of scales at lower grades

obviously you are not that interested in facts and more about getting digs in

True again. Although I said "they are most likely".

The thrust of my point remains.

A huge number of Public servants are not on salaries 14% lower than they were in 2009.

When you address me, try to avoid making presumptions about my motivations for posting. Thanks.

BOHSBOHS · 24-05-2013 04:44PM

official stats from PER show only 36% of civil servants are due an increment in 2013 (....was 43% in 2009)

hardly a majority now noodler

Godge · 24-05-2013 04:46PM

noodler wrote: »

No public servant is working with a salary of 14% less than they had in 2009 - a huge number (perhaps a majority) would likely be back at 2009 levels by now and some even higher.

Additional work an flexibility is pretty much the least that could be expected. I admit that a general term like that could mean simply a bit of extra paper work for some staff whilst for others it can mean additional kids in a classroom or more patients on a trolly.

The bit in bold is the original statement that people are quibbling with.

noodler wrote: »

I said "a huge number (perhaps a majority)".

No, you said "no public servant"

noodler wrote: »

Sorry, I apologise.

I see now where my error was.

There are PS workers with increment scales that mean they likely haven't had an increment in four years.

They are most likely people earning well over 60K in higher positions in the service but obviously they exist.

You moved from "no public servant" to "most likely people earning well over 60k in high positions"

noodler wrote: »

True again. Although I said "they are most likely".

The thrust of my point remains.

A huge number of Public servants are not on salaries 14% lower than they were in 2009.

When you address me, try to avoid making presumptions about my motivations for posting. Thanks.

Finally, "no public servants" has turned into "a huge number" which is sufficiently imprecise to mean anything from 1,000 public servants to 99% of public servants are not on salaries 14% lower than they were in 2009.

Do you have any piece of information to back up what you are saying? Or is it hyperbole?

Gryire · 24-05-2013 04:50PM

ardmacha wrote: »

Some are working with salaries 16% or 18% less than in 2009.

No public servant has had their core pay cut by 16%

geeksauce · 24-05-2013 05:02PM

The Rooster wrote: »

Wow, what an utter load of nonsense.

What you do have right is the complete job insecurity in the private sector. Whether employed by MNCs or indigienous companies. If they move out, you lose a job. If they are making losses, wage reductions and job cuts are inevitable. A public sector job with complete job security and pension entitlements certainly is a prized possession.

I assume you work in the Public Sector if you believe a job there is such a prized possession.

Gloomtastic! · 24-05-2013 05:08PM

"In addition teacher are aggrieved that after pay cuts averaging 14% and significant additional work and flexibility under the Croke Park agreement, the Government is again targeting teachers and other public sector workers" - ASTI

'Significant additional work and flexibility' As a parent of primary school children I've been trying to figure out what additional work and flexibility we've had. Parent/Teacher meetings are now outside school hours - 10 extra hours a year at most. They don't get their planning day(s). And that's it I think. No extra teaching, holidays are just as long. Have teachers had it the easiest from Croke Park or do they just protest the most?

ardmacha · 24-05-2013 05:21PM

No public servant has had their core pay cut by 16%

here we go again.....

Vizzy · 24-05-2013 05:23PM

Godge wrote: »

Finally, "no public servants" has turned into "a huge number" which is sufficiently imprecise to mean anything from 1,000 public servants to 99% of public servants are not on salaries 14% lower than they were in 2009.

Do you have any piece of information to back up what you are saying? Or is it hyperbole?

Godge,just because he has decided to get involved at this stage,he can't be expected to produce any proof.
Sure,if you read the entire thread,that type of proof has been provided loads of times.
BTW - I must be as rare as rocking horse sh!t as I have had no increment since 2007 and I don't earn €60k.
Who would have thought,eh?

Godge · 24-05-2013 05:26PM

Vizzy wrote: »

BTW - I must be as rare as rocking horse sh!t as I have had no increment since 2007 and I don't earn €60k.
Who would have thought,eh?

Be careful before someone spots that, porbably impose and extra 20% cut on you personally:D

Vizzy · 24-05-2013 05:36PM

Godge wrote: »

Be careful before someone spots that, porbably impose and extra 20% cut on you personally:D

You wuz lucky.!!
When I was young we used dreeem of 20% paycut.
We used get up before we went to bed to be beaten by "ani PS"

And you tell that to young people today..................and they won't believe you

doc_17 · 24-05-2013 06:20PM

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

"In addition teacher are aggrieved that after pay cuts averaging 14% and significant additional work and flexibility under the Croke Park agreement, the Government is again targeting teachers and other public sector workers" - ASTI

'Significant additional work and flexibility' As a parent of primary school children I've been trying to figure out what additional work and flexibility we've had. Parent/Teacher meetings are now outside school hours - 10 extra hours a year at most. They don't get their planning day(s). And that's it I think. No extra teaching, holidays are just as long. Have teachers had it the easiest from Croke Park or do they just protest the most?

Try figuring a little harder. I gave you a hint by highlighting a wee bit of it for you!

Those pesky teachers!!!!!!!!!!!

whiteandlight · 24-05-2013 07:07PM

Gloomtastic! wrote: »

"In addition teacher are aggrieved that after pay cuts averaging 14% and significant additional work and flexibility under the Croke Park agreement, the Government is again targeting teachers and other public sector workers" - ASTI

'Significant additional work and flexibility' As a parent of primary school children I've been trying to figure out what additional work and flexibility we've had. Parent/Teacher meetings are now outside school hours - 10 extra hours a year at most. They don't get their planning day(s). And that's it I think. No extra teaching, holidays are just as long. Have teachers had it the easiest from Croke Park or do they just protest the most?

33 hours extra planning a year. This cannot be in contact with students so can't even be used for teaching. Pen pushing exercise resulting in ridiculous meetings in school to try and fill them.

Huge changes to the junior cert curriculum starting next September including grading of exams by teachers. Little or no training/advice on how this is happening.

Enormous increase in the amount of paperwork required by teachers including increased inspection. I'll have to root out the study but Irish teachers are now one of the most inspected teachers in Europe.

Literacy and numeracy plan requiring a very heavy workload of documented evidence by schools being implemented without any provision for it in time.

Moratorium on posts meaning that many years heads, exam secretaries etc doing large amounts of work outside their contact hours are doing it voluntarily on their own time

No addressing of the problem with shortened contracts and serious lack of job security particularly at second level where there is no panel.

No organising of a voluntary redeployment panel.

Many of these issues are having an impact on students that parents seem to be oblivious to. For example Issues with tiny part time contracts are resulting in school changing by teachers trying to get an extra hour or two. I picked up a junior cert class this year and I am their fifth teacher. This is happening in schools all over their country and is having a major impact on students because of the chopping and changing

Galwayguy35 · 24-05-2013 07:16PM

So what do people think will happen now, will the teachers strike?

Public Sector strikes wouldn't affect me personally but I imagine it won't be too popular with parents.

Gloomtastic! · 24-05-2013 07:18PM

Musicmental85 wrote: »

33 hours extra planning a year. This cannot be in contact with students so can't even be used for teaching. Pen pushing exercise resulting in ridiculous meetings in school to try and fill them.

Huge changes to the junior cert curriculum starting next September including grading of exams by teachers. Little or no training/advice on how this is happening.

Enormous increase in the amount of paperwork required by teachers including increased inspection. I'll have to root out the study but Irish teachers are now one of the most inspected teachers in Europe.

Literacy and numeracy plan requiring a very heavy workload of documented evidence by schools being implemented without any provision for it in time.

Moratorium on posts meaning that many years heads, exam secretaries etc doing large amounts of work outside their contact hours are doing it voluntarily on their own time

No addressing of the problem with shortened contracts and serious lack of job security particularly at second level where there is no panel.

No organising of a voluntary redeployment panel.

Many of these issues are having an impact on students that parents seem to be oblivious to. For example Issues with tiny part time contracts are resulting in school changing by teachers trying to get an extra hour or two. I picked up a junior cert class this year and I am their fifth teacher. This is happening in schools all over their country and is having a major impact on students because of the chopping and changing

And primary school teachers, how have they been affected?

whiteandlight · 24-05-2013 07:21PM

Not a primary teacher so wouldn't be sure!

Gryire · 24-05-2013 08:08PM

Galwayguy35 wrote: »

So what do people think will happen now, will the teachers strike?

Public Sector strikes wouldn't affect me personally but I imagine it won't be too popular with parents.

No they won't strike. Irish teachers are the most highly paid in Europe and are the biggest moaners.

woodoo · 24-05-2013 08:19PM

BOHSBOHS wrote: »

official stats from PER show only 36% of civil servants are due an increment in 2013 (....was 43% in 2009)

hardly a majority now noodler

Thats an interesting stat. Only 36% are due increments and that figure is dropping year on year while there are no new recruits.

Poor Noodler has had his arse scalded and has scampered off.. hopefully to brush up on some facts

maryishere · 24-05-2013 10:32PM

Gryire wrote: »

No they won't strike. Irish teachers are the most highly paid in Europe and are the biggest moaners.

+1. They will not strike in late June or July anyway. Teachers in England do not get holidays until mid July. Our lot have it relatively easy.

Good loser · 25-05-2013 12:47AM

ardmacha wrote: »

Some are working with salaries 16% or 18% less than in 2009.

Pay and pensions in the Public Service: 2008 €18.753 bn

2011 €17.127 bn

ardmacha · 25-05-2013 01:30AM

Good loser wrote:

Quote:
Originally Posted by ardmacha
Some are working with salaries 16% or 18% less than in 2009.

Pay and pensions in the Public Service: 2008 €18.753 bn

2011 €17.127 bn

What is the purpose of this post?

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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