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Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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Comments

  • #4502
    sarumite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    ardmacha wrote: »
    I think you are at cross-purposes here, you are referring to income distribution, Godge was talking about whether people in the PS were paid more than in other sectors of the Irish economy.

    The amazing thing about Ireland is that people argue for socialism in PS pay, to each according their need and all that, while stoutly defending pay disparities elsewhere. That will simply result in a East/West German scenario where the able and talented on the socialist side will move to the market side.

    We already discussed the presence of a pay premium in the PS.

    As for people arguing for socialism in PS pay, I assume by people you are including PS unions .


  • #4503
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    maryishere wrote: »
    On Primetime it said that managers/ top public servants here were paid seven times what those at the bottom are paid - in Nordic countries it is three and a half times. I suppose if you are a public servant on 150k or 200k you may not consider that to be very well paid.

    Prime Time? One comparison with Nordic countries?

    Did you read the thread on economic journalism?


  • #4504
    [Deleted User]
    Posts: 12,694 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    The important point for the government/health services is the fact the nurses will be asked to works an extra hour and a half a week for the same pay, that if its implemented will result in far more savings that any pay cut.

    Apparently it will result in 50000 nursing hours being available to the health service with out having to pay for it.

    Increasing hours worked ( with out haveing to pay for them ) will alway result in more saving than cutting pay.


  • #4505
    donegal11
    Closed Accounts Posts: 689 ✭✭✭donegal11


    mariaalice wrote: »
    The important point for the government/health services is the fact the nurses will be asked to works an extra hour and a half a week for the same pay, that if its implemented will result in far more savings that any pay cut.

    Apparently it will result in 50000 nursing hours being available to the health service with out having to pay for it.

    Increasing hours worked ( with out haveing to pay for them ) will alway result in more saving than cutting pay.

    Nurses had to work a standard 39 week up until very recently. You'd think they were badly put out by it. Same goes with teachers and the S&S payment, in England you'd go without it.

    And it has to be said that a far share of nurses don't work full time either.


  • #4506
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    ardmacha wrote: »
    That will simply result in a East/West German scenario where the able and talented on the socialist side will move to the market side.
    If they are worth their salt they can cut it in the real world. At the moment we have an East/West German scenario where the permanent , pensioned people who work less hours, take more sickies and get more holidays get paid 15k a year more than those in the private sector.


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  • #4507
    Vizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    donegal11 wrote: »
    Nurses had to work a standard 39 week up until very recently. You'd think they were badly put out by it. Same goes with teachers and the S&S payment, in England you'd go without it.

    And it has to be said that a far share of nurses don't work full time either.

    I'm sure that you would probably go without it in Somalia or North Korea too,but what has that got to do with anything ?


  • #4508
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 54,768 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    maryishere wrote: »
    If they are worth their salt they can cut it in the real world. At the moment we have an East/West German scenario where the permanent , pensioned people who work less hours, take more sickies and get more holidays get paid 15k a year more than those in the private sector.

    Is it their fault that you made a bad career choice.
    I remember when the opposite was the case only there was less whinging.


  • #4509
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Is it their fault that you made a bad career choice.
    my career choice is none of your business and is of no relevance here.

    What is relevant to this thread, is the point which you are acknowledging above - the huge division between the public and private sector.in this country. In terms of pay, hours, sickies, pensions etc as you insinuate. Thank you.


  • #4510
    Vizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    maryishere wrote: »
    my career choice is none of your business and is of no relevance here.

    What is relevant to this thread, is the point which you are acknowledging above - the huge division between the public and private sector.in this country. In terms of pay, hours, sickies, pensions etc as you insinuate. Thank you.

    Have you got a current link(say 2011 or 2012) which demonstrates this "huge division between the public and private sector.in this country. In terms of pay, hours, sickies, pensions etc" ?

    Thank you.


  • #4511
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Vizzy wrote: »
    Have you got a current link(say 2011 or 2012) which demonstrates this "huge division between the public and private sector.in this country. In terms of pay, hours, sickies, pensions etc" ?
    numerous - read back through this thread and you will see them. Listen to the media and open your eyes and you will see them. Even tayto lover knows and acknowledges which sector has the best pay, pensions, working conditions etc.


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  • #4512
    Vizzy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,582 ✭✭✭Vizzy


    maryishere wrote: »
    numerous - read back through this thread and you will see them. Listen to the media and open your eyes and you will see them. Even tayto lover knows and acknowledges which sector has the best pay, pensions, working conditions etc.

    Thats a NO then !!


  • #4513
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    If they are worth their salt they can cut it in the real world

    Of course they can cut in the real world, but what will that do to services?

    Listen to the media and open your eyes and you will see them

    The Herald speaks!


  • #4514
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    Some interesting statistics here: http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showthread.php?p=63180709
    If you want more up to date statistics contact your ultra efficient colleagues ( lololololo ) in the central statistics office. Someone may be there for half an hour tomorrow. Point made.


  • #4515
    sean200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭sean200


    maryishere wrote: »
    my career choice is none of your business and is of no relevance here.

    What is relevant to this thread, is the point which you are acknowledging above - the huge division between the public and private sector.in this country. In terms of pay, hours, sickies, pensions etc as you insinuate. Thank you.

    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa you poor think are you getting a bit upset??
    Don't forget to add the private sector perk's such as health insurance and bonus


  • #4516
    sean200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭sean200


    maryishere wrote: »
    If they are worth their salt they can cut it in the real world. At the moment we have an East/West German scenario where the permanent , pensioned people who work less hours, take more sickies and get more holidays get paid 15k a year more than those in the private sector.

    In the real world we have 100k people employed in multinationals not for their skills or education but as a front to allow those multinationals to use this country as a tax haven
    Anybody that is one of them employed be very nervous as the day of Ireland getting away with this is nearing an end


  • #4517
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    In the real world we have 100k people employed in multinationals not for their skills or education but as a front to allow those multinationals to use this country as a tax haven

    The tax structure may have influenced the decision of the companies to come here, but the people actually employed are employed for their their skills or education and many of these have risen to influential positions in the international structure of these organisations.


  • #4518
    sarumite
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,909 ✭✭✭sarumite


    sean200 wrote: »
    aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaa you poor think are you getting a bit upset??
    Don't forget to add the private sector perk's such as health insurance and bonus

    Or the private jets, chauffeur driven cars and holidays to Caribbean.;)

    Of course if they are contractually agreed upon, then its not a perk....that at least seems to be the prevailing logic here.


  • #4519
    The Rooster
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,199 ✭✭✭The Rooster


    sean200 wrote: »
    In the real world we have 100k people employed in multinationals not for their skills or education but as a front to allow those multinationals to use this country as a tax havenAnybody that is one of them employed be very nervous as the day of Ireland getting away with this is nearing an end

    Wow, what an utter load of nonsense.

    What you do have right is the complete job insecurity in the private sector. Whether employed by MNCs or indigienous companies. If they move out, you lose a job. If they are making losses, wage reductions and job cuts are inevitable. A public sector job with complete job security and pension entitlements certainly is a prized possession.


  • #4520
    Boulevardier
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,375 ✭✭✭Boulevardier


    Sorry folks, I'm probably a bit thick.

    Can someone PLEASE recap for me why the trade unions are talking about ANY alterations to the Croke Park 1 agreement that would take effect before thet agreement is due for review in 2014?

    I understand that Croke Park 1 had an "inability to pay" clause which the government could use to revise the agreement, but that this clause has NOT been activated.

    Firstly am I factually correct, and secondly if I am, then Why are the unions agreeing to any change?


  • #4521
    barneystinson
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,686 ✭✭✭barneystinson


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    Sorry folks, I'm probably a bit thick.

    Can someone PLEASE recap for me why the trade unions are talking about ANY alterations to the Croke Park 1 agreement that would take effect before thet agreement is due for review in 2014?

    I understand that Croke Park 1 had an "inability to pay" clause which the government could use to revise the agreement, but that this clause has NOT been activated.

    Firstly am I factually correct, and secondly if I am, then Why are the unions agreeing to any change?

    I don't know about thick but you're certainly verrrrry late!

    The simple answer to your question is because the Government say they'll legislate otherwise, and the unions (or some of them) believe that. Better the devil you know etc...


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  • #4522
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    A public sector job with complete job security and pension entitlements certainly is a prized possession.

    If this were the case then people would be leaving Google et al and going to work in the Civil Service. This is not happening.


  • #4523
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,570 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Vizzy wrote: »
    Have you got a current link(say 2011 or 2012) which demonstrates this "huge division between the public and private sector.in this country. In terms of pay, hours, sickies, pensions etc" ?

    Thank you.

    The CSO average weekly salary figures? Average PS pay being 50% higher than that in the private sector?

    Ah come on, thats been published a million times - not the other poster's fault you are late to the party.
    Boulevardier wrote: »
    Sorry folks, I'm probably a bit thick.

    Can someone PLEASE recap for me why the trade unions are talking about ANY alterations to the Croke Park 1 agreement that would take effect before thet agreement is due for review in 2014?

    I understand that Croke Park 1 had an "inability to pay" clause which the government could use to revise the agreement, but that this clause has NOT been activated.

    Firstly am I factually correct, and secondly if I am, then Why are the unions agreeing to any change?
    barneystinson wrote: »
    I don't know about thick but you're certainly verrrrry late!

    The simple answer to your question is because the Government say they'll legislate otherwise, and the unions (or some of them) believe that. Better the devil you know etc...


    Because the country is broke and the public sector finances have gotten much worse since CP2 was signed. Thats pretty much the crux of it.

    The Government are currently bending over backwards to accommodate the unions and with unemployment predicted to be as high as 12% by 2016 I really worry that some of the union positions will cause a serious rift societal rift in the future as welfare payments are cut and are eaten into by inflation whilst other quibble over delays to their incremental salary increases.

    I am delighted the Government has at least managed to bring the Siptu and INTO leadership around to recommending a positive vote this time. Its going to be damn near impossible to satisfy everyone.


  • #4524
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 27,570 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    ardmacha wrote: »
    If this were the case then people would be leaving Google et al and going to work in the Civil Service. This is not happening.

    ??

    What strange reasoning.

    There are 3000-4000 people in Google Ireland.

    And 1.5m workers outside of the public sector.

    Our Public Sector should not have to pay the absolute highest salaries in the land and hyperbole like your post shouldn't be used in an attempt to somehow argue to talk down the conditions on offer in the Public Sector.

    It really is funny that you go to Google particualrly when the top Civil Service jobs generally seem to go to insiders with John Moran's appointment being something of a rarity in recent times.


  • #4525
    Tea drinker
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,818 ✭✭✭Tea drinker


    sean200 wrote: »
    In the real world we have 100k people employed in multinationals not for their skills or education but as a front to allow those multinationals to use this country as a tax haven
    Anybody that is one of them employed be very nervous as the day of Ireland getting away with this is nearing an end
    There has to be good reasons to base your ops on an agricultural backwater on the edge of Europe. I've been concerned (not worried ) since the crew I work for has already said if the headline rate changes they will leave. To be fair I think we have to accept that the people have some skill and some education of use to MNC.
    If 100k jobs go then 200k anciliiary go too.


  • #4526
    vinylbomb
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 605 ✭✭✭vinylbomb


    sean200 wrote: »
    In the real world we have 100k people employed in multinationals not for their skills or education but as a front to allow those multinationals to use this country as a tax haven
    Anybody that is one of them employed be very nervous as the day of Ireland getting away with this is nearing an end


    If they do you'll be out on your ear pronto too bud, like it or not, contract or not, public sector or not.


  • #4527
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    Our Public Sector should not have to pay the absolute highest salaries in the land and hyperbole like your post shouldn't be used in an attempt to somehow argue to talk down the conditions on offer in the Public Sector.

    If my post was hyperbole, why not just refute it then.

    I didn't say that Google employed as many as the PS, I said that there are people for whom the conditions in the PS do not offer any advantage over what is available elsewhere.


  • #4528
    maryishere
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,549 ✭✭✭maryishere


    that statement is meaningless given the skillsets of some people outside the public service, combined with the fact the public service is not recruiting.

    The vast vast majority of people in the private sector are not Google designers, or have their terms and conditions. Besides, in 5 or 10 years time those same people in Google may be out of a job / replaced with something new from China / whatever.

    We cannot afford our public servants to have the same terms and conditions as companies in the top 0.01% of the most successful, richest companies worldwide.


  • #4529
    ardmacha
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,476 ✭✭✭ardmacha


    We cannot afford our public servants to have the same terms and conditions as companies in the top 0.01% of the most successful, richest companies worldwide.

    If you want them to do the same things, you have to offer them comparable conditions.


  • #4530
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭creedp


    Boulevardier wrote: »
    I understand that Croke Park 1 had an "inability to pay" clause which the government could use to revise the agreement, but that this clause has NOT been activated.

    Firstly am I factually correct, and secondly if I am, then Why are the unions agreeing to any change?

    Whie you may be late to the discussion you are correct in your interpretation. What's difficult to inderstand then given the that the Govt and most on here are so vocal in pointing out that the economic circumstances are much more fooked now that they were in 2010 why this clause has not been invoked. If the agreemeent provides for it then invoke it. Why instead try to renage on CP and make a complete balls of re-negotiating CP1a when they already have agreement to invoke this clause is difficult to understand.

    Anyway lets continue to play the cat and mouse game - if you don't play by our rules we're going to make you pay .. Q is why didn't they do this when the balls up of CP1a being turned down occurred? Talk about a bunch of windbags who haven't a clue what they are at .. all they are doing now is giving away there so called savings trying to lure people across the line so they can boast of a victory to the Troika et al. If they were truly interested in savings they would simply legislate for a fair contribution from as many people as possible instead of continuing with this charade.

    As for the unions they seem to be frozen in the headlights and not knowing which way to turn. I'm sure they hope their nightmare will be over soon and they can return to some peace and quiet and continue to draw their €100k+ salaries while commiserating with their lower paid colleagues for whom they have recommended and and actively campaigned for a pay cut. Long live the powerful PS unions is all I can say.


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  • #4531
    creedp
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,049 ✭✭✭creedp


    vinylbomb wrote: »
    If they do you'll be out on your ear pronto too bud, like it or not, contract or not, public sector or not.


    There's fighting talk bud!


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