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Comments

  • #182
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    J C wrote: »
    I sincerely hope you are not implying that people of faith are equivalent to racists!!!

    This is a complete 'red herring' ... but the fact that you have posted it is a further illustration of the contempt that some Secularists have for people of faith and their right to express their faith and have it recognised in society, including in schools.

    To answer your post ... the point is that racism is illegal and the expression and transmission of religious faith is legal in Ireland, last time I checked.

    Your analogy therefore has no relevance to the issue of religion in Secular Schools, as racist requests would and should be rejected ... but requests for religious beliefs to be respected should be granted.

    In summary, racists shouldn't be given parity of esteem for their illegal requests ... but people of faith should be given parity of esteem for their legally held religious beliefs.
    If legality is what makes my analogy irrelevant, then just transport it back a few decades, say to the United States in the early 20th century.

    Should a particular system be endorsed or accommodated no matter how divisive or discriminatory it is, by virtue of the fact that it's the majority position? Is mob rule okay with you?

    Let me preempt your hysterical accusations: it's the system of segregation that I'm referring to here; religious people themselves are not comparable with racists.


  • #183
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Dave! wrote: »
    If legality is what makes my analogy irrelevant, then just transport it back a few decades, say to the United States in the early 20th century.

    Should a particular view be endorsed or accommodated no matter how divisive or discriminatory it is, by virtue of the fact that it's the majority position? Is mob rule okay with you?
    Mob rule isn't OK ... whatever the mob happens to be.
    The point I'm making is that people need to be treated with parity of esteem ... and that applies to Atheists within religious-run schools as well as Christians within secular schools.
    I find myself in the ironic position of having attended a Secular school myself (where there was absolute respect and parity of esteem for students of all religions and none ... and an excellent and orthodox religion class incidentally).
    However, my interactions on this thread and others with 'modern' Secularists would indicate that, to paraphrase W B Yeats ... 'everything seems to have changed, changed utterly'!!
    ... and the liberal Secularist seems to be a thing of the past.
    ... or, perish the thought, were the 'liberal Secularists' of my youth only 'liberal' because they were such a tiny minority, at the time?


  • #184
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Dave! wrote: »
    Let me preempt your hysterical accusations: it's the system of segregation that I'm referring to here; religious people themselves are not comparable with racists.
    On further examination, I accept your bona fides on this issue ... and I have edited my original posting accordingly.


  • #185
    lmaopml
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Dave! wrote: »
    So if there's a disagreement between parents of white children (who want schools segregated by race) and parents of black children (who want all children educated together), should there then be a resolution that shows respect and parity of esteem for both points of view? What should that resolution be?

    I think Dave, if you look at your idea of the perfect school system as one that the state plays the role of the 'superior' opinon, whether they are black or white is inconsequential - and not really a good comparison.

    As it stands, in this country, we have - despite a huge mountain of any kind of popular opinion throughout time, built churches and schools that where hard earned and coated in blood for their place, because people felt strongly that education is not only about the 'rulers' or about the 'state' alone -


    Now you can of course come along and state that quite simply 'they shouldn't be allowed' because I'm worth it - but I'm afraid that it doesn't cut it, it sounds lazy in context to be honest when one can nowadays apply for funding and not whine about the status quo without any kind of regard.

    I have no problem, I don't think any Catholic who is sincere would have a problem supporting a minority who are fighting for representation, in fact most of us will put our shoulder behind them - however, I dislike the idea that you seem to suppose you have an enemy, or that you are opposed simply because another country is different - the truth is that every country is 'different', and I'm not ashamed of mine or want to morph into another simply because...

    - I don't have the energy to oppose you, I think the ET system is cool, but I still think that a faith ethos school is valuable...you don't.

    I'm not opposing you - you are the one with the 'idealist' notion that you think is ok, just because you think so...
    so when you stop moaning perhaps you could realise that normal folk are not your enemy - that would be really nice.


  • #186
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    lmaopml wrote: »
    I'm not opposing you - you are the one with the 'idealist' notion that you think is ok, just because you think so...
    lmaopml, by far the biggest problem with all of this is that the Secularists don't just want to control a number of schools in ratio to their tiny numbers (still) in Irish society ... they want to control all state funded schools ... and they want to deny funding to any religious run school. That is their 'idealist' notion !!!

    You're talking about reasonably 'accommodating' Secularists and helping them to set up a few schools appropriate to their tiny numbers in Irish Society ... but they're talking about taking over practically every school in Ireland and eliminating all forms of religious expression and teaching in them ... on the basis that the state shouldn't fund any school that allows religion within its walls.

    The Secularists aren't a minority 'fighting for representation' in Irish schools ... they're a minority trying to eliminate the religion of the majority from all publicly-funded schools ... which is practically all schools.


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  • #187
    Dave!
    Closed Accounts Posts: 27,856 ✭✭✭✭Dave!


    lmaopml wrote: »
    I think Dave, if you look at your idea of the perfect school system as one that where the state plays the role of the 'superior' opinon, whether they are black or white is inconsequential -

    As it stands, in this country, we have despite a huge mountain of any kind of popular opinion, Churches built and schools that where hard earned and coated in blood for their place, because people felt strongly that education is not only about the 'rulers' or about the 'state' alone - now you can of course come along and state that quite simply 'they shouldn't be allowed' - but I'm afraid that it doesn't cut it, it sounds lazy in context to be honest when one can nowadays apply for funding and not whine about the status quo-

    I have no problem, I don't think any Catholic who is sincere would have a problem supporting a minority who are fighting for representation, in fact most of us will put our shoulder behind them - however, I dislike the idea that you seem to suppose you have an enemy, or that you are opposed - I don't have the energy to oppose you, I think the ET system is cool, but I still think that a faith ethos school is valuable...you don't.

    I'm not opposing you - you are the one with the 'idealist' notion that you think is ok, just because you think so...

    I appreciate your sincerity on this issue.

    I believe that schools should be about educating students about the world as we currently understand it, and the education system should be about giving students a solid foundation of facts and equipping them with skills and tools for continuing to grow and develop once they finish school (including interacting with people of different backgrounds and beliefs).

    I see religion as something that doesn't have to feature in this. As far as I'm concerned adjusting an education system to include religious instruction is attempting to extend it from the core reason it exists. It is bastardising it somewhat. You want a whole range of flavours tailored to people's specific tastes, when there is a flavour (vanilla, shall we say!) which is adequate for fulfilling the goals for everyone.

    Does it satisfy your extra requests? Does it have an added layer, which you would like, on top of the basics? Does it do X with the specific twist you would like on it? No - it's just a solid foundation that everyone can avail of, and which meets accomplishes the goals of an education system.

    If groups would like something additional or a particular spin on their child's education, then that's fine, but I don't see why there would be any obligation on the part of the State for it to be part of the public education system, any more than there should be an obligation to provide schools for children of parents with a strong political ideology that they want reinforced during the school day.

    That's where I'm coming from on this issue.


  • #188
    lmaopml
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    I know JC. I've spoken to some - but not all people feel this way, perhaps on Boards.ie it represents those who feel the need for a venting vehicle or that they are marginalised and voice themselves in anger, which granted is what most people tend to do

    - to be honest I don't think that normal everyday folk in real life have that kind of 'agenda', they just aren't represented properly online in my real life experiences - That's why it's a cool thing to not only converse on a forum such as boards, but also be involved with real life people too who are not all that fundamental about controlling every single thing.

    It's a thorny issue - for sure.


  • #189
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    lmaopml wrote: »
    I know JC. I've spoken to some - but not all people feel this way, perhaps on Boards.ie it represents those who feel the need for a venting vehicle or that they are marginalised and voice themselves in anger, which granted is what most people tend to do

    - to be honest I don't think that normal everyday folk in real life have that kind of 'agenda', they just aren't represented properly online in my real life experiences - That's why it's a cool thing to not only converse on a forum such as boards, but also be involved with real life people too who are not all that fundamental about controlling every single thing.

    It's a thorny issue - for sure.
    I agree with you on one level. I have a number of liberal atheist friends ... but they are all of a certain age!!
    At another level, the notion that religion should be taken out of school is all pervasive on the Boards amongst Secularists ... and no dissenting opinon has been proferred.
    We also mustn't forget that religion was banned in American Public Schools via court proceedings taken by one person and against a very substantial majority of public opinion.


  • #190
    lmaopml
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    J C wrote: »
    I agree with you on one level. I have a number of liberal atheist friends ... but they are all of a certain age!!
    At another level, the notion that religion should be taken out of school is all pervasive on the Boards amongst Secularists ... and no dissenting opinon has been proferred.
    We also mustn't forget that religion was banned in American Public Schools via court proceedings taken by one person and against very substantial public opinion.

    America is not Ireland. I think Irish people in many regards may just read a post or two or even contribute, but they are bound to surprise when one least expects it - Irish people, at least those who value Christ are not quite as likely to get involved until the last minute - and say what they mean and mean what they say where it counts - unfortunately I think we will be facing many referendums depending on who is voted into Government and the overall mundane sameness of politicians that don't know what is not 'safe' politics..

    I have faith in people however! Well placed? I don't know...


  • #191
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    lmaopml wrote: »
    I have faith in people however! Well placed? I don't know...
    Faith in people is all very fine when they are saying something to have faith in ... I am listening to what Secularists are saying ... and what they are saying, is that they are going to take religion out of schools ... and they appear to have the capacity and the intention of doing so.


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  • #192
    lmaopml
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Dave! wrote: »
    I appreciate your sincerity on this issue.

    Thankyou!
    I believe that schools should be about educating students about the world as we currently understand it, and the education system should be about giving students a solid foundation of facts and equipping them with skills and tools for continuing to grow and develop once they finish school (including interacting with people of different backgrounds and beliefs).

    I don't see why you consider a Christian ethos school as 'less' than that? In my opinion they do very well realising that there is a big world out there and are educated to see it - In my opinion Catholics are given a pretty cool education...the curriculum is covered and so too is God included as part of the day to day life of a normal everyday Catholic..
    I see religion as something that doesn't have to feature in this. As far as I'm concerned adjusting an education system to include religious instruction is attempting to extend it from the core reason it exists. It is bastardising it somewhat. You want a whole range of flavours tailored to people's specific tastes, when there is a flavour (vanilla, shall we say!) which is adequate for fulfilling the goals for everyone.

    Certainly 'Vanilla' is cool - nobody said any different - I think when 'Vanilla' is the only one available than the advocates of vanilla need to ask themselves if they have not become what they hate? Whether they believe that vanilla is best or no...
    Does it satisfy your extra requests? Does it have an added layer, which you would like, on top of the basics? Does it do X with the specific twist you would like on it? No - it's just a solid foundation that everyone can avail of, and which meets accomplishes the goals of an education system.

    Well, yes of course it does. It not only represents an atheist idea of 'education' but also nourishes both the mind, body, AND spirit of students in an environment that is not 'unfriendly' towards Christianity, and only 'friendly' towards what an atheist thinks is 'most' important.

    Christian students do really well - their record speaks for itself!
    If groups would like something additional or a particular spin on their child's education, then that's fine, but I don't see why there would be any obligation on the part of the State for it to be part of the public education system, any more than there should be an obligation to provide schools for children of parents with a strong political ideology that they want reinforced during the school day.

    That's where I'm coming from on this issue.

    Well that's just it! You, that would be 'you' have an 'ideology' whether you think it no - according to 'other' people who pay taxes and 'contribute' etc. etc. and so on? Do you believe you even have one?


  • #193
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    lmaopml wrote: »
    Well that's just it! You, that would be 'you' have an 'ideology' whether you think it no - according to 'other' people who pay taxes and 'contribute' etc. etc. and so on? Do you believe you even have one?
    I have often done the same thing as well, lmaopml, (personalising the issue of religion in schools to the postings of individual Secularists) ... but I've now come to realise that the universal and identical nature of these postings is indicative of a widely held belief (to the point of being almost universal) amongst Secularists that religion has no place within society, including schools ... and they appear to be quite determined to act on this belief.
    Some just stop at wanting to ban religion in schools, while others seem to want to go the 'whole hog' and ban its teaching anywhere to all minor children, on the basis that religion is some kind of 'mind virus' or 'child abuse'.

    http://firmitas.org/MindVirus.html

    Please note that the cartoon indicates that it's not just 'any religion' that is the target of this stuff ... the 'viral crosses' indicate that it it primarily Christianity that is the target.
    The Secularists on this thread are only the messengers and for presenting the message unabiguously, I would like to thank them.
    ... we shouldn't get angry with them personally ... it's their message (on the elimination of religion from society and schools) that needs to be taken seriously by all Christians and other Theists.


  • #194
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    lmaopml wrote: »
    America is not Ireland. I think Irish people in many regards may just read a post or two or even contribute, but they are bound to surprise when one least expects it - Irish people, at least those who value Christ are not quite as likely to get involved until the last minute - and say what they mean and mean what they say where it counts -
    Is America really much different to Ireland? ... they both have a common legal system with predominantly Christian populations and huge overlaps in cultures and population movements between the two countries.
    ... as for getting involved at the last minute ... I doubt if somebody who leaves it to the last minute, will get involved ... and even if they do ... the last minute will be too late.
    There is also not likely to be a 'last minute' anyway ... as the suppression of religion is likely to be achieved incrementally rather than in one 'big bang' that might 'frighten the horses'.
    I guess, if you are in a minority in a school community, 'frightening the horses' wouldn't be a very good idea ... although many of the Secularist posts on this thread are giving the 'horses' a right good 'wake up' slap on their collective backsides ...
    ... and some Secularist postings even come dangerously close to 'overuse of the whip'!!!:):pac:


  • #195
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    lmaopml wrote: »
    I don't have the energy to oppose you, I think the ET system is cool, but I still think that a faith ethos school is valuable...you don't.

    What specifically do you mean by "faith ethos"? While a child would never be punished for having faith while attending an ET school, would you say it is ok to punish a child for not having faith if they attend a "faith ethos" school?


  • #196
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Morbert wrote: »
    What specifically do you mean by "faith ethos"? While a child would never be punished for having faith while attending an ET school, would you say it is ok to punish a child for not having faith if they attend a "faith ethos" school?
    Children are not punished for not having faith in a 'faith ethos' school ... but the full force of state law can be brought down on them in France for merely expressing their faith by wearing a headscarf in secular schools!!!
    I know nothing about the ET system. Are you saying that the ET system wouldn't have any objection to a child expressing their faith by praying, or wearing Faith symbols, for example, in their schools?


  • #197
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    J C wrote: »
    Children are not punished for not having faith in a 'faith ethos' school ... but the full force of state law can be brought down on them in France for merely expressing their faith by wearing a headscarf in secular schools!!!
    I know nothing about the ET system. Are you saying that the ET system wouldn't have any objection to a child expressing their faith by praying, or wearing Faith symbols, for example, in their schools?

    Political and religious expressions can be disruptive in any school, and just as a Christian school would not permit devil worship, there are numerous "expressions of faith" (E.g. Subjugation of women, discrimination based on sexuality, claiming everyone who is not a member of religion X is going to hell) that would not be permitted in ET schools or (I would hope) any schools. However, if the child expresses their faith in an inclusive, respectful, and inter-cultural manner, then there is no problem.

    http://www.educatetogether.ie/about/mission-and-values

    "Q : Are Educate Together schools anti-religious?



    A: No, they are multi-denominational. The schools provide an environment in which the spiritual background of each child is equally respected whatever their family’s viewpoint. Our Ethical Education Curriculum, called Learn Together, has four strands. One specific strand aims to develop in children a critical knowledge, understanding and awareness of the teachings of religious and non-theistic belief systems and how these systems relate to our shared human experience. The Learn Together curriculum aims to inform rather than instruct. It teaches children about religions rather than teaching that one is “the right way to think”. We believe that specific religious formation is the responsibility of parents and religious organisations outside school. Within the school we aim to ensure that no child has to be set apart as a result of their religion. We also understand that many parents want their children to receive formal religious instruction. With this in mind, our school boards facilitate the organisation of voluntary faith formation classes outside school hours. These classes are organised with the assistance of the relevant religious authorities."


  • #198
    lmaopml
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,080 ✭✭✭lmaopml


    Morbert wrote: »
    What specifically do you mean by "faith ethos"?


    I mean one that has a 'Christian' ethos - where families can send their child to school in an environment where they can mention God, and not only mention God but also include prayer.
    While a child would never be punished for having faith while attending an ET school, would you say it is ok to punish a child for not having faith if they attend a "faith ethos" school?

    Absolutely not, I don't think any right minded person would? However, we have got to deal with what we have here, and also with actual people and not ideologies, so the road may be rocky at the moment, but I don't think there is an unwillingness on behalf of Catholics to promote the ET model either - in fact, I have friends who send their children to one.

    I was merely aghast at the general tone of some of posters on this particular thread who may wish to be represented and roll out a good secular system - but also have demonstrated very clearly that they don't believe that a 'faith ethos' school should exist because they don't want 'their' taxes paying those teachers...

    Do you think a 'faith ethos' school should exist Morbert?


  • #199
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Morbert wrote: »
    Political and religious expressions can be disruptive in any school, and just as a Christian school would not permit devil worship, there are numerous "expressions of faith" (E.g. Subjugation of women, discrimination based on sexuality, claiming everyone who is not a member of religion X is going to hell) that would not be permitted in ET schools or (I would hope) any schools. However, if the child expresses their faith in an inclusive, respectful, and inter-cultural manner, then there is no problem.
    What does that mean?
    If a Christian child respectfully says that everyone can be (inclusively) Saved is that OK, in these schools?
    Why should religious expressions be 'disruptive' ... why should somebody displaying a religious symbol or praying beside them or on their premises, bother them, if they are truly multi-denominational and religiously tolerant in outlook?
    Indeed, if these schools are truly multi-denominational, as distinct from non-denominational/irreligious, I would expect them to have local religious clergy in during school hours telling all children about their teachings from their particular faith perspective. Do they do this?
    Morbert wrote: »
    http://www.educatetogether.ie/about/mission-and-values

    "Q : Are Educate Together schools anti-religious?



    A: No, they are multi-denominational. The schools provide an environment in which the spiritual background of each child is equally respected whatever their family’s viewpoint. Our Ethical Education Curriculum, called Learn Together, has four strands. [One specific strand aims to develop in children a critical knowledge, understanding and awareness of the teachings of religious and non-theistic belief systems and how these systems relate to our shared human experience.
    What does this actually mean ... is it some kind of criticism of religious faith from a secular perspective?
    ... or are the various faith denominations involved in the production and delivery of this programme?
    How is the spiritual background of each child "equally respected"?

    Morbert wrote: »
    The Learn Together curriculum aims to inform rather than instruct. It teaches children about religions rather than teaching that one is “the right way to think”. We believe that specific religious formation is the responsibility of parents and religious organisations outside school. Within the school we aim to ensure that no child has to be set apart as a result of their religion. We also understand that many parents want their children to receive formal religious instruction. With this in mind, our school boards facilitate the organisation of voluntary faith formation classes outside school hours. These classes are organised with the assistance of the relevant religious authorities."
    Why isn't this done during school hours ... if these schools are truly multi-denominational (i.e. facilitating the teaching of all religions within the school) as distinct from non-denominational/irreligious (i.e. don't allow any religious teaching/practice within school during school hours, like the French and American Secular models)?
    ... the supposed 'concession' of allowing religious instruction after school hours isn't a concession at all, because many organisations that have nothing to do with schools or their ethos use the facilities of all kinds of schools after school hours.
    In summary, are these ET Schools just Secular Schools, by another name ... and if not, where do they differ in their practice from a Secular School?


  • #200
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    J C wrote: »
    What does that mean?
    If a Christian child respectfully says that everyone can be (inclusively) Saved is that OK, in these schools?
    Why should religious expressions be 'disruptive' ... why should somebody displaying a religious symbol or praying beside them or on their premises, bother them, if they are truly multi-denominational and religiously tolerant in outlook?
    Indeed, if these schools are truly multi-denominational, as distinct from non-denominational/irreligious, I would expect them to have local religious clergy in during school hours telling all children about their teachings of their particular faith perspective. Do they do this?

    What does this actually mean ... is it some kind of criticism of religious faith from a secular perspective?
    ... or are the various faith denominations involved in the production and delivery of this programme?
    How is the spiritual background of each child "equally respected"?


    Why isn't this done during school hours ... if these schools are truly multi-denominational (i.e. facilitating the teaching of all religions within the school) as distinct from non-denominational/irreligious (i.e. don't allow any religious teaching/practice within school during school hours, like the French and American Secular models)?
    ... the supposed 'concession' of allowing religious instruction after school hours isn't a concession at all, as many organisations that have nothing to do with schools or their ethos use the facilities of all kinds of schools after school hours.
    In summary, are these ET Schools just Secular Schools, by another name ... and if not, where do they differ in their practice from a Secular School?

    I don't understand your post at all. You imply that being "truly" multi-denominational requires the segregation of children into classes of formal religious instruction. That's not multi-denominational. That is segregation. Instead, all children learn about multiple denominations, as it is a multi-denominational school. They learn about the inter-cultural trends between the different denominations, as well as between theistic and atheistic, humanistic belief systems. You also accuse ET schools of being secular. It is obvious that ET schools are indeed secular. This is why their popularity is rising. Secular is a good thing.


  • #201
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Morbert wrote: »
    I don't understand your post at all. You imply that being "truly" multi-denominational requires the segregation of children into classes of formal religious instruction. That's not multi-denominational. That is segregation.
    That would indeed be denominational, even segregational, as you say.

    I'm saying that being truly multi-denominational means having children of all religious denominations sharing in the faith formation of each other ... and tolerantly allowing the expression of all faiths and none ... just like what currently happens in Christian run schools ... but isn't allowed in French and American secular schools.
    Morbert wrote: »
    Instead, all children learn about multiple denominations, as it is a multi-denominational school. They learn about the inter-cultural trends between the different denominations, as well as between theistic and atheistic, humanistic belief systems. You also accuse ET schools of being secular. It is obvious that ET schools are indeed secular. This is why their popularity is rising. Secular is a good thing.
    Thanks for confirming that ET Schools are actually Secular Schools.
    I'm not so sure that their popularity will continue to rise when people of faith (90% plus of the population) are told what you have confirmed ... that they are essentially Secular schools that don't allow any expression of faith within school hours, while apparently working to a secular humanist ethos, on the basis that this is supposedly 'a good thing'!!!
    ... or is that actually the position of these schools?


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  • #202
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    J C wrote: »
    That would indeed be denominational, even segregational, as you say.

    I'm saying that being truly multi-denominational means having children of all religious denominations sharing in the faith formation of each other ... and tolerantly allowing the expression of all faiths and none ... just like what currently happens in Christian run schools ... but isn't allowed in French and American secular schools.

    Are you saying that you now agree with me? In ET schools, kids are taught about all world-views, from Christian to Muslim to humanism and atheism. You were originally complaining about the fact that they do not receive formal religious instruction.
    Thanks for confirming that ET Schools are actually Secular Schools.
    I'm not so sure that their popularity will continue to rise when people of faith (90% plus of the population) are told what you have confirmed ... that they are essentially Secular schools that don't allow any expression of faith within school hours, while apparently working to a secular humanist ethos, on the basis that this is supposedly 'a good thing'!!!
    ... or is that actually the position of these schools?

    90% of the population are not people of faith, and your above paragraph implies you do not know what secularism means.


  • #203
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    lmaopml: I am not automatically against faith-ethos schools, though after doing a little research, I do have issues with some of the primary school curriculum in Ireland.


  • #204
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    Morbert wrote: »
    Are you saying that you now agree with me? In ET schools, kids are taught about all world-views, from Christian to Muslim to humanism and atheism. You were originally complaining about the fact that they do not receive formal religious instruction.
    I've asked how they are taught about 'all worldviews' ... and whether, for example, Christian clergy are involved in the production and delivery of this teaching.
    I have also made the point that a true multi-denominational school would provide formal religious training in line with the faith positions of the various denominations attending it ... whereas a non-denominational school wouldn't do so ... and you have confirmed that ET schools are of the latter persuasion ... indeed, you confirmed that they are, in fact, Secular Schools.
    ... and from what you have said about them, you appear to be correct in this assertion.
    Morbert wrote: »
    90% of the population are not people of faith, and your above paragraph implies you do not know what secularism means.
    It was an understatement by me ... actually over 90% of the people on the most recent Census indicated that they are Christians, with a few percent more indicating other faiths.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84556390&postcount=117

    Secularism tries to present itself as tolerant of all religions and none ... but in practice, it doesn't tolerate any religion other than it's 'root religion' of Atheistic Humanism ... and its core beliefs of scientism, materialism and irreligion. That's fine, in so far as it goes ... but please do not present this as tolerant of Theism ... when it clearly isn't.

    If it was truly tolerant of all religions, Secularism wouldn't ban prayer in public schools in America or Muslim headscarves in France ... or banish Christian clergy from their schools until 'after school hours' in other places.


  • #205
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    J C wrote: »
    It was an understatement by me ... actually over 90% of the people on the most recent Census indicated that they are Christians, with a few percent more indicating other faiths.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84556390&postcount=117

    Over 90% of people were put down by someone that they are catholic, not people of faith. I explained this with links earlier that most of these people dont even think religion is important in their lives or can be assed to attend church.


    J C wrote: »
    Secularism tries to present itself as tolerant of all religions and none ... but in practice, it doesn't tolerate any religion other than it's 'root religion' of Atheistic Humanism ... and its core beliefs of scientism, materialism and irreligion. That's fine, in so far as it goes ... but please do not present this as tolerant of Theism ... when it clearly isn't.

    If it was truly tolerant of all religions, Secularism wouldn't ban prayer in public schools in America or Muslim headscarves in France ... or banish Christian clergy from their schools until 'after school hours' in other places.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=G2y8Sx4B2Sk


    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secularism


  • #206
    Delirium
    Moderators Posts: 52,248 ✭✭✭✭Delirium


    J C wrote: »
    That would indeed be denominational, even segregational, as you say.

    I'm saying that being truly multi-denominational means having children of all religious denominations sharing in the faith formation of each other ... and tolerantly allowing the expression of all faiths and none ... just like what currently happens in Christian run schools ... but isn't allowed in French and American secular schools.

    Schools must have drastically changed since my time in primary. The school I went to gave no mention of any other religion all through primary. Jews were only mentioned in history class in relation to the Holocaust.

    How many classes a week are allocated to studying the Torah and Koran in Christian schools (seeing as you claim they're tolerantly allowing the expression of all faiths)?

    Also, were my schools anti-semitic for not having the Star of St.David (or whatever wall hanging is used by Jewish people) up beside the crucifix? Just asking as not displaying religious emblems means the school has taken an anti position by your own reasoning.

    If you can read this, you're too close!



  • #207
    Morbert
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,457 ✭✭✭Morbert


    J C wrote: »
    I've asked how they are taught about 'all worldviews' ... and whether, for example, Christian clergy are involved in the production and delivery of this teaching.
    I have also made the point that a true multi-denominational school would provide formal religious training in line with the faith positions of the various denominations attending it ... whereas a non-denominational school wouldn't do so ... and you have confirmed that ET schools are of the latter persuasion ... indeed, you confirmed that they are, in fact, Secular Schools.
    ... and from what you have said about them, you appear to be correct in this assertion.

    What you are describing is segregation, not a multi-denominational curriculum.
    It was an understatement by me ... actually over 90% of the people on the most recent Census indicated that they are Christians, with a few percent more indicating other faiths.
    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84556390&postcount=117

    You have changed your statement. You claimed 90% were people of faith. while over 90% of people might indicate that they are Christian, this does not mean they are people of faith. In fact, Christian has become a cultural term in the West, resulting in the "atheist Christian" phenomenon evidenced in the U.K. and elsewhere.
    Secularism tries to present itself as tolerant of all religions and none ... but in practice, it doesn't tolerate any religion other than it's 'root religion' of Atheistic Humanism ... and its core beliefs of scientism, materialism and irreligion. That's fine, in so far as it goes ... but please do not present this as tolerant of Theism ... when it clearly isn't.

    If it was truly tolerant of all religions, Secularism wouldn't ban prayer in public schools in America or Muslim headscarves in France ... or banish Christian clergy from their schools until 'after school hours' in other places.

    What you have described is not secularism. Your straw man can be dismissed out of hand.


  • #208
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    Over 90% of people were put down by someone that they are catholic, not people of faith. I explained this with links earlier that most of these people dont even think religion is important in their lives or can be assed to attend church.
    They had the choice of 'no religion, Atheist, Agnostic, etc.
    A significant campaign was waged to ensure that every Atheist (incuding presumably 'Atheist Catholics', whatever that may mean) recorded themselves as being Atheists ... and less than one tenth of one percent recorded themselves as Atheists.
    Here are the non-theist percentages from the Census:-

    Other religions 0.31%
    No Religion 5.88%
    Atheist 0.09%
    Agnostic 0.08%
    Not answered 1.59%


  • #209
    shruikan2553
    Closed Accounts Posts: 6,113 ✭✭✭shruikan2553


    J C wrote: »
    They had the choice of 'no religion, Atheist, Agnostic, etc.
    A significant campaign was waged to ensure that every Atheist (incuding presumably 'Atheist Catholics', whatever that may mean) recorded themselves as being Atheists ... and less than one tenth of one percent recorded themselves as Atheists.
    Here are the non-theist percentages from the Census:-

    Other religions 0.31%
    No Religion 5.88%
    Atheist 0.09%
    Agnostic 0.08%
    Not answered 1.59%

    People can put themselves down as jedi if they want. It makes no difference how many christians there are if most of they dont care about their religion and the only reason they consider themselves catholic is because they did their communion etc but havent stepped into a church since.


  • #210
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    koth wrote: »
    Schools must have drastically changed since my time in primary. The school I went to gave no mention of any other religion all through primary. Jews were only mentioned in history class in relation to the Holocaust.

    How many classes a week are allocated to studying the Torah and Koran in Christian schools (seeing as you claim they're tolerantly allowing the expression of all faiths)?

    Also, were my schools anti-semitic for not having the Star of St.David (or whatever wall hanging is used by Jewish people) up beside the crucifix? Just asking as not displaying religious emblems means the school has taken an anti position by your own reasoning.
    The point is that they have no objection to the visit of other religious clergy to their schools during school hours or the wearing of the symbols of other religions within their schools.
    Faith Schools may have some distance to still travel in religious tolerance ... but they are beacons of enlightenment in comparison with the illiberal banning of prayer in American Secular schools and religious symbols in French ones ... and the apparent consignment of religious clergy to 'after school hours' ... along with needlework and keep-fit classes in other Secular Schools.:eek:


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  • #211
    J C
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 14,615 ✭✭✭✭J C


    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    People can put themselves down as jedi if they want.
    They could ... but nobody said they were Jedi.
    shruikan2553 wrote: »
    It makes no difference how many christians there are if most of they dont care about their religion and the only reason they consider themselves catholic is because they did their communion etc but havent stepped into a church since.
    How do you know this? ... the census questions were designed to find out what religion (or none) that people considered themselves to currently belong to ... and over 90% declared themselves to be Christian.


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