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Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

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Comments

  • #692
    mikom
    Closed Accounts Posts: 16,391 ✭✭✭✭mikom


    Phoebas wrote: »

    Revenue are putting 400 staff on the collection team, so you probably won't have to wait too long for them to force it from you.

    All from the call centre, are they?


  • #693
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    mikom wrote: »
    All from the call centre, are they?
    No. The call centre people are mainly non revenue people on first line support.

    The 400 are Revenue staff, working on enforcement.
    Enforcement should be straightforward in most cases as they've already identified names and valuations.
    Basically - if they've sent you a letter, they've got you by the balls.


  • #694
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    We already have a tax on savings, DIRT. Was increased this year.

    We only tax interest earned.

    Presumably people here who are in favour of property tax would also be in favour of taxing deposits.

    So if you have €10,000 in a bank account you would be liable to a recurring tax of €200.


  • #695
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    kippy wrote: »
    No way, the family home cannot pay, I never would have thought that.
    Of course it's taxing people.

    Where does the money to pay anything come from?

    From income and the expenditure of disposable income?

    Btw I don't think food bought from supermarkets are subject to vat, on the grounds that buying food is deemed somewhat necessary for living. I mean, of course it should be taxed. The few who can't afford it can grow their own. :pac:


  • #696
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    Phoebas wrote: »
    so the terms haven't changed by the LPT being introduced.

    No, but the price has(after the purchase), also a second entity that you are forced to make a payment to has come into the equation.


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  • #697
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    We only tax interest earned.

    Presumably people here who are in favour of property tax would also be in favour of taxing deposits.

    So if you have €10,000 in a bank account you would be liable to a recurring tax of €200.

    Actually, if you taxed savings at the same rate as you taxed property, it would work out much cheaper than DIRT for the saver.


  • #698
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    marienbad wrote: »
    A tax that is long overdue. I paid it today.

    Good stuff outta you.


  • #699
    darkhorse
    Closed Accounts Posts: 2,274 ✭✭✭darkhorse


    kippy wrote: »
    Whats with all the "bleeding heart" examples which have absolutely no context or indeed relevance in this thread.

    Explain.


  • #700
    relax carry on
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,180 ✭✭✭relax carry on


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    From income and the expenditure of disposable income?

    Btw I don't think food bought from supermarkets are subject to vat, on the grounds that buying food is deemed somewhat necessary for living. I mean, of course it should be taxed. The few who can't afford it can grow their own. :pac:

    List of vat rates in link below with determination for specific products if anyone is an insomniac. But majority of foods bought in supermarkets are at the zero rate with prepared items at
    the reduced rate.


    http://www.revenue.ie/en/tax/vat/rates/index.jsp


  • #701
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    Btw I don't think food bought from supermarkets are subject to vat, on the grounds that buying food is deemed somewhat necessary for living. I mean, of course it should be taxed. The few who can't afford it can grow their own. :pac:
    That's the basic idea.
    Property ownership on the other hand isn't at all necessary.


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  • #702
    kippy
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,851 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    darkhorse wrote: »
    Explain.
    Not sure what needs explaining, but examples of people not being able to afford shoes for the kids are just bleeding heart nonsense.


  • #703
    Am Chile
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,025 ✭✭✭Am Chile


    Phoebas wrote: »
    50pct is a good number so far - way ahead of the equivalent household charge numbers. I also saw a number a couple of weeks ago that 1/3rd had paid, so there seems to be good momentum.

    Revenue are putting 400 staff on the collection team, so you probably won't have to wait too long for them to force it from you.

    Just because forms are sent back doesnt mean they are filled in-post from last week

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=84540264&postcount=301


    All articles in the media as of late assume all the forms have signed up for payment-however there are two national campaigns against the property tax which both have differing views and tactics as how to defeat the property tax.

    (1) The CAHWT urging a boycott of the forms along with protests and political pressure.

    (2) The other is the Attackthetax campaign who lodged a legal challenge in the high court against the property tax this week, their tactic seems to lie in putting a sticker over the tax form stating you are part of the legal challenge against the property tax, according to Attackthetax they say once you a part of the litigation/legal challenge the revenue cant come after people for payment until the high court challenge is settled.

    From looking at social media sites and facebook- the Attackthetax appears to be a growing campaign- looking at both CAHWT and Attackthetax facbeook pages- more people appear to be interacting with the Attackthetax facebook page-from what I can see and observe at the moment a good portion of people who are opposed to the property tax and want a way to resist look to be going with the Attackthetax campaign instead of CAHWT.

    Just because a form has being returned doesnt mean it has being filled or signed-what they wont say publicly is how many of the present returns to date have the Atackthetax stickers attached to the returns-from what I can see and observe from social media I bet its a lot.


  • #704
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    Am Chile wrote: »
    their tactic seems to lie in putting a sticker over the tax form stating you are part of the legal challenge against the property tax, according to Attackthetax they say once you a part of the litigation/legal challenge the revenue cant come after people for payment until the high court challenge is settled.

    Sound legal advice there. ;) What could possibly go wrong?


  • #705
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Phoebas wrote: »
    That's the basic idea.
    Property ownership on the other hand isn't at all necessary.

    Living is a fixed abode isn't necessary?

    Oh wait, you're saying ownership of the fixed abode isn't necessary. Silly me. I mean it's not as if you have to pay anything to rent, nor as if the landlord of said rented property is not also hit by property tax, and will thus unload such costs onto the renter.

    Silly me.

    Besides which, surely no ownership of anything by the individual is, strictly speaking, necessary. I mean, as long as it is available to the individual, but owned by.. let's say the state... it's grand, isn't it?

    I'm assuming that you are in favour of the deposit tax, then?


  • #706
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Actually, if you taxed savings at the same rate as you taxed property, it would work out much cheaper than DIRT for the saver.

    By saver you mean someone specifically earning interest on such savings, and deposits will not necessarily do so.

    But interest is income: I say that there should be tax on the money itself AS WELL as the tax on the interest: just in the same way as with a property that is rented out there will be tax on the income from rent AND a tax on the property itself. :rolleyes:


  • #707
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    But interest is income: I say that there should be tax on the money itself AS WELL as the tax on the interest: just in the same way as with a property that is rented out there will be tax on the income from rent AND a tax on the property itself.

    Fair enough. Wealth taxes on deposits wouldn't bother me that much. Same principle of broadening the tax base.


  • #708
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Fair enough. Wealth taxes on deposits wouldn't bother me that much. Same principle of broadening the tax base.

    Okay, so at least you are being consistent.

    But the wealth has been taxed already through its generation. Wealth is the reward we hand people for their hard work in the capitalist state.

    What is in effect being taxed here is the privilege of ownership.

    Moreover it doesn't even take debts into account. If you have €20,000 in a bank account and an outstanding loan of €60,000 you are €40,000 in debt.

    Some people have sunk a lot of money into property; some have done so in order to avoid spending money into the apparent vacuum of rent. A mortgage may take a long time to pay off, but the end result will be a property that will be yours; and will no longer have to pad for.

    Now that people are in hock to such debt the government decides to tax people on the supposed grounds of local services. I find this highly reprehensible.


  • #709
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    http://www.attackthetax.com/downloads/TheGreatIrishPropertyTaxScam.pdf

    I don't buy into these campaigns too much tbh.

    Thought some of thje readers of these threads may be interested in some of the literarure contained in this PDF regardless.
    No LAW can ever be passed requiring the People to provide Signed Declarations without a referendum being called and indeed ratified.
    4.No Irish MAN or WOMAN can be prosecuted for not providing a Declaration under the Household Charge Act 2011 and/or the Household Charge Regulations 2012, as they are Fraudulent Documents. Repugnant to ALL Natural LAW.


  • #710
    Banjo String
    Closed Accounts Posts: 14,380 ✭✭✭✭Banjo String


    Phoebas wrote: »
    What the fuk????????

    In fairness Phoebas, i made these very points to you a few days ago. (landlord passing on the tax)

    Why are you acting shocked?


  • #711
    siralan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭siralan


    Local Property Tax Vs Household Charge

    When I logged on to pay Im also facing the same. Its so frustrating.

    Has anyone paid the Local Property Tax but not paid the Household Charge from 2012 ?? I have 3 properties and because revenue are collecting I decided to bite the bullet and pay the LPT but when I put all 3 houses together paying the LPT, + household charge + arrears and interest its just crippling.


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  • #712
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Phoebas wrote: »
    What the fuk????????

    I am finding your unswerving defence of taxation of ownership difficult to fathom. Do you believe that private ownership is a luxury that should be taxed in general? Should a person's assets as a whole be taxed for the sake of public expenditure? It is a fairly socialistic POV.

    I mean the property tax is like a 50 year mortgage... for a debt the debtor did not incur.

    Saying that renting is an alternative is a touch naive tbh. If someone is in negative equity (for a debt the debtor DID incur)... then they cannot afford to sell because the (ahem) wealth that they are being taxed on will not meet their debts. Even if this is not an issue; the place that they live in will still be taxed - it will not magically disappear because the accommodation is rented. Sure, it will be the landlord who is liable - but his increased expenditure will therefore be mitigated through his tenants.

    I don't know what it is that you are finding so difficult to understand.


  • #713
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    siralan wrote: »
    Local Property Tax Vs Household Charge

    When I logged on to pay Im also facing the same. Its so frustrating.

    Has anyone paid the Local Property Tax but not paid the Household Charge from 2012 ?? I have 3 properties and because revenue are collecting I decided to bite the bullet and pay the LPT but when I put all 3 houses together paying the LPT, + household charge + arrears and interest its just crippling.

    Make your stand, Siralan! if you think its crippling now what do you think it will it be like in a few years time?

    At the very least dont make it easy for them, because, for all their talk, it is not as easy to chase someone for this money as they would have you believe!!


  • #714
    siralan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 80 ✭✭siralan


    If I dont pay it now it goes to €200 in a couple of weeks time and I am led to believe that Revenue take over the 'Household Charge Debtors list' .

    I agree it will only get dearer and its such an unfair tax. I did not pay the household charge initially as I believed that there would be enough people with the balls to stand up this disgraceful tax, yet everytime I hear a report about payments, the percentage of payers has risen.

    I really dont know what to do, I want to make a protest but at what expense. Michael Collins would turn in his grave if he knew of the 'freedom of the Irish people' in 2013. The ordinary people have been hung out to dry.


  • #715
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    siralan wrote: »
    If I dont pay it now it goes to €200 in a couple of weeks time and I am led to believe that Revenue take over the 'Household Charge Debtors list' .

    I agree it will only get dearer and its such an unfair tax. I did not pay the household charge initially as I believed that there would be enough people with the balls to stand up this disgraceful tax, yet everytime I hear a report about payments, the percentage of payers has risen.

    I really dont know what to do, I want to make a protest but at what expense. Michael Collins would turn in his grave if he knew of the 'freedom of the Irish people' in 2013. The ordinary people have been hung out to dry.

    On the plus side the household tax is gone. If you are paying the property tax anyway it might be worth while to pay the hhc just to get revenue off your back.


  • #716
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    RandomName2 wrote: »
    But the wealth has been taxed already through its generation. Wealth is the reward we hand people for their hard work in the capitalist state.

    What is in effect being taxed here is the privilege of ownership.

    With that logic, we shouldn't have to pay VAT or Motor Tax or a raft of other taxes because we've already paid tax on our income.
    RandomName2 wrote: »
    it doesn't even take debts into account. If you have €20,000 in a bank account and an outstanding loan of €60,000 you are €40,000 in debt.

    Some people have sunk a lot of money into property; some have done so in order to avoid spending money into the apparent vacuum of rent. A mortgage may take a long time to pay off, but the end result will be a property that will be yours; and will no longer have to pad for.

    Now that people are in hock to such debt the government decides to tax people on the supposed grounds of local services. I find this highly reprehensible.

    What's so special about property that your debt should make a difference to your tax liability? If I owe more than I own, I don't get a discount on my income tax?
    RandomName2 wrote:
    Do you believe that private ownership is a luxury that should be taxed in general? Should a person's assets as a whole be taxed for the sake of public expenditure? It is a fairly socialistic POV.

    Taxation isn't the preserve of socliaism alone.


  • #717
    RandomName2
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,575 ✭✭✭RandomName2


    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    With that logic, we shouldn't have to pay VAT or Motor Tax or a raft of other taxes because we've already paid tax on our income.

    Wait, you pay a recurring VAT on your posessions? :eek:
    Or do you pay VAT during the purchase, like Stamp duty?

    Also Motor Tax isn't on the property of the car, but on its use on the roads. You can own a hundred cars, park them on private property, and not pay a cent in motor tax.
    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    What's so special about property that your debt should make a difference to your tax liability? If I owe more than I own, I don't get a discount on my income tax?

    Because it isn't being charged on income; but on "wealth" - a notoriously fickle concept that has, in fact, been a primary cause of this depression.
    Vladimir Kurtains wrote: »
    Taxation isn't the preserve of socliaism alone.

    True. But tax; and the taxation on property in particular, it is more true of socialism than other forms of governance.


  • #718
    Chips Lovell
    Moderators, Politics Moderators, Sports Moderators Posts: 24,279 Mod ✭✭✭✭Chips Lovell


    I suppose if you create enough conditions you'll find a way of making it unique.

    I can not turn on my television all year and what do you know, I still have to pay my television licence.

    While there's nothing wrong with socialism, there's plenty of right wing governments who operate a property tax, such as Germany and Spain.


  • #719
    flutered
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 6,757 ✭✭✭flutered


    i repeat once again, if the below cost selling of alchol by the muntibles was abolished, the savings to rhe exchequer would make the property tax look like some loose change.


  • #720
    Phoebas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,373 ✭✭✭Phoebas


    bgrizzley wrote: »
    Make your stand, Siralan! if you think its crippling now what do you think it will it be like in a few years time?

    At the very least dont make it easy for them, because, for all their talk, it is not as easy to chase someone for this money as they would have you believe!!
    Yes. Let's make a stand ... for people who own 3 properties :pac:


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  • #721
    bgrizzley
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,641 ✭✭✭bgrizzley


    Phoebas wrote: »
    Yes. Let's make a stand ... for people who own 3 properties :pac:

    Is'nt he already paying tax on them? maybe you would like him to open his veins to feed them altogether...


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