Communion and Confirmation grants scrapped...

Zombrex · 11-05-2013 10:36AM

robp wrote: »

They would opt out of that class and there would be absolutely no problem. I have zero problem funding an Islamic school.

What do you mean "that class"? How are you children going to opt-out of instruction that they don't know is coming? And what about learning the other stuff in that class?

Or are you naive enough to think that in a religious school the religious instruction is restricted to a single class and everything else is entirely secular and no one mentions religion or the doctrine of the religion the church is a part of?

Zombrex · 11-05-2013 10:44AM

Morbert wrote: »

Though I will say that, in secondary schools at least, the status of "Catholic" is skin-deep. We regularly learned about the importance of contraception, had open debates about abortion without bias from the teacher, and had religion classes that placed no emphasis or validity on Christianity over other religions. This was all in a C.B.S. school.

Which makes you wonder what was the point?

This is the paradox of this discussion, one the one hand theists are arguing that they want their children to go to a school where the tenants and doctrine of their religion shape the child's education, and then on the other hand they are saying that members of different religions don't need to worry because the education their child gets won't be shaped by the tenants or doctrine of the religion :rolleyes:

So you either get "Catholic" schools where pretty much nothing Catholic is part of the child's education, which makes you wonder why have a Catholic school at all.

Or you get actual Catholic schools where children from non-Catholic homes come home to their mothers explaining how happy they are that Jesus died for their sins, as happened to a friend of mine in Limerick.

If sending ones child to a "Catholic" school isn't going to shape his education in the Catholic mold why would anyone be bothered about sending him there.

And if it is going to shape your children the Catholic mold how can you not see how non-Catholics would not like that for their child?

shruikan2553 · 11-05-2013 11:01AM

robp wrote: »

I am amazed you could describe the census results as a joke. They are not super accurate for school preference but they are our first and foremost demographic window. ETs are fine. Some people want them but other don't. However there is no evidence that the majority want them, as the patronage forum did not find that conslusion.

I could say my race is Klingon and my religion is spoon on the form but it doesn't make it true. Religion and Irish speaking are two things that shouldn't be taken as accurate in the census. Cultural and a la carte catholics are just seen as catholic on the census, if they dont care enough about their religion to practice it then why should I have to put up with it?

I'd say its closer to say the majority dont care about weather the school is catholic or not with the two smaller groups arguing about which it should be, one side for catholics, the other for equality.

Why would someone not want an ET? They provide facilities for religious education so they only reason to be against them is because they are against equality. What other groups should we split up in regards to education? Maybe we could have trinity only accept protestants again.

robp · 11-05-2013 11:31AM

Zombrex wrote: »

What do you mean "that class"? How are you children going to opt-out of instruction that they don't know is coming? And what about learning the other stuff in that class?

Or are you naive enough to think that in a religious school the religious instruction is restricted to a single class and everything else is entirely secular and no one mentions religion or the doctrine of the religion the church is a part of?

Opting out is how it works. I went through the system relatively recently. I know how it works. If my hypothetical children hear the odd pro Islam remark in another class they will survive. No big deal.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

I'd say its closer to say the majority dont care about weather the school is catholic or not with the two smaller groups arguing about which it should be, one side for catholics, the other for equality.

Why would someone not want an ET? They provide facilities for religious education so they only reason to be against them is because they are against equality. What other groups should we split up in regards to education? Maybe we could have trinity only accept protestants again.

that doesn't even make sense. There could be any number of valid reasons. Why do most do most people prefer ETs over the inter denominal VECs? Just a personal choice.

shruikan2553 · 11-05-2013 11:41AM

robp wrote: »

that doesn't even make sense. There could be any number of valid reasons.

And they are?

Sure there might be some people that would prefer to send their child to a catholic school but that doesn't mean that in many areas everyone has to go to one.

If people want schools to cater to a certain religion let them have them if there is demand for it and everyone else has the choice of going to somewhere like an ET.

robp · 11-05-2013 11:43AM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

And they are?

If people want schools to cater to a certain religion let them have them if there is demand for it and everyone else has the choice of going to somewhere like an ET.

Spot on. Exactly what I have been saying.

Zombrex · 11-05-2013 03:09PM

robp wrote: »

Opting out is how it works. I went through the system relatively recently. I know how it works. If my hypothetical children hear the odd pro Islam remark in another class they will survive. No big deal.

Again opting out of what exactly? I have friends who send their children to Catholic national schools and their children are bombarded with Catholic doctrine the entire day. How do they opt out of that?

If you think it is just an RE class you don't know what you are talking about

Gumbi · 11-05-2013 03:13PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Again opting out of what exactly? I have friends who send their children to Catholic national schools and their children are bombarded with Catholic doctrine the entire day.

Could you elaborate a bit on that?

robp · 11-05-2013 06:21PM

Zombrex wrote: »

Again opting out of what exactly? I have friends who send their children to Catholic national schools and their children are bombarded with Catholic doctrine the entire day. How do they opt out of that?

If you think it is just an RE class you don't know what you are talking about

Oh you mean like they have to act in a nativity play, sing the odd hymn or be in the same room as a priest once a month even though its free time for them?

I am well aware of the Catholic patronage guidelines but the reality is as their curriculum is very busy and there is little opportunity to squeeze religion into maths or English etc. Its a myth that school children use the bible for English lessons even though if they did I can't imagine any problem as texts in English are not particularly factual. I support your right to an ET school but if you can't get one I doubt its oppressive unless you had no choice but to baptism your child to get a place.

Zombrex · 11-05-2013 11:51PM

robp wrote: »

Oh you mean like they have to act in a nativity play, sing the odd hymn or be in the same room as a priest once a month even though its free time for them?

Er, no. I mean they come home most days wanting to talk to their mother about all that Jesus did for them, why they are sinners, who is in hell, are they going to hell, are their friends who don't go to the school going to hell, how much they "love" Jesus for what he did for them, what can they do to show Jesus that they love him back so on and so on.

This is despite the fact that their mother has repeatably informed the school that they are not a Catholic family and they do not want their children indoctrinated with Catholic dogma.

When the mother confronted the individual teacher she was told that she was only responding to "legitimate questions" that the students themselves asked. Apparently all you need is one 10 year old to ask "Miss, who was Jesus?" to justify her launching into a lecture on sin and salvation. See, she is not indoctrinating the children with her religion, she is just answering questions. For an hour. While they are doing maths questions.

They get shrugs from the school and are told they will do their best but a "Catholic education" is part of the ethos of the school and cannot be avoided

And after all isn't that the whole point, isn't that why the school is Catholic in the first place, so that they get a Catholic education?

robp wrote: »

I am well aware of the Catholic patronage guidelines but the reality is as their curriculum is very busy and there is little opportunity to squeeze religion into maths or English etc.

Then you are being ridiculously naive. In national school the students are with the teacher all day, and if the teacher wants to start "saving their souls" there is very little the parents can do about it, they cannot remove their children from the class for the entire day.

Equally the "solutions" the schools themselves come up with are nothing but pointless pleasantries. At one point the school said the children would not be told about Jesus if when the teacher asked them they said they didn't want to know. Which is stupid, if the teacher asks a 10 year old in a class of 20 other students if they want to know about the thing she is about to tell the whole class about they are going to mumble "yes" because that is what all their friends are mumbling, particularly when the alternative is to go sit outside the room as if they are in trouble 4 or 5 times a day.

At that point it became patently obvious to my friends wife that the school had no genuine interest in respecting her wishes, that to them she was just a bad mother raising her children outside of the "correct" religion and that the school was going to take it upon themselves save her children's souls. Last I heard they were looking into other schools to transfer to.

This is what the schools in the USA quickly identified, that "opt out" policies are deeply unfair on the students, who are required to single themselves out among their class mates and their teachers and required to exclude themselves from the normal running of the class room just to avoid having religious dogma taught to them in a school their parents taxes are paying for. Given the option children are not going to do this, they are not going to single themselves out, and if they do they may face ridicule or simply a sense of doing something wrong or a sense of detachment from their class and friends.

Gumbi · 12-05-2013 01:30AM

Yikes.

While there was a nice chunk of time dedicated to religion in my school, it wasn't so bad. Mostly just preparing for the sacraments. We weren't told about sin or salvation or hell or heaven really. Just the odd "nice" story like the Good Samaritan etc.

Kiwi in IE · 12-05-2013 11:29AM

The school situation is so infuriating. We are really happy with our decision to move to Ireland and enjoy most aspects of living here. I could mostly ignore religion and wouldn't get so frustrated about it if it weren't for the school issue. To me a Catholic school is on a par with a Muslim school.

I feel really angry that I have no choice but put my son in a religious school come September. I would much prefer him to be educated in New Zealand, although over all we are happy and settled here.

As Zombrex had pointed out it's luck of the draw whether or not attempts at indoctrination will occur against your wishes.

I don't want to tell my son anything negative about religion either, I would prefer he is taught fact about the beliefs of certain groups, and is left to make his own mind up as he grows and learns. I have never had any intention of telling him that any religion is untrue. I have no right to insist that he is an atheist just because I am. He is an individual person who will make his own choices. A fact that is lost on many religious parents. However if there are attempts at religious indoctrination and talk of sin, hell etc, before he has developed the ability to think critically, I will have no choice but to completely counteract it.

Leverarchfile · 12-05-2013 12:00PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

The school situation is so infuriating. We are really happy with our decision to move to Ireland and enjoy most aspects of living here. I could mostly ignore religion and wouldn't get so frustrated about it if it weren't for the school issue. To me a Catholic school is on a par with a Muslim school.

I feel really angry that I have no choice but put my son in a religious school come September. I would much prefer him to be educated in New Zealand, although over all we are happy and settled here.

As Zombrex had pointed out it's luck of the draw whether or not attempts at indoctrination will occur against your wishes.

I don't want to tell my son anything negative about religion either, I would prefer he is taught fact about the beliefs of certain groups, and is left to make his own mind up as he grows and learns. I have never had any intention of telling him that any religion is untrue. I have no right to insist that he is an atheist just because I am. He is an individual person who will make his own choices. A fact that is lost on many religious parents. However if there are attempts at religious indoctrination and talk of sin, hell etc, before he has developed the ability to think critically, I will have no choice but to completely counteract it.

TBH ask any Catholic and they'll tell you there is very little religion in a Catholic school. Why don't you put him in a Protestant school ? There's even less there as they don't have the same number of church sacraments to prepare the kids for. There really should be more non denominational schools, but parents are going to have to be prepared to put the work in and set up and run them themselves like the other schools and boards of management do. The same funding is available to them as anyone else.

Kiwi in IE · 12-05-2013 12:35PM

Leverarchfile wrote: »

TBH ask any Catholic and they'll tell you there is very little religion in a Catholic school. Why don't you put him in a Protestant school ? There's even less there as they don't have the same number of church sacraments to prepare the kids for. There really should be more non denominational schools, but parents are going to have to be prepared to put the work in and set up and run them themselves like the other schools and boards of management do. The same funding is available to them as anyone else.

He is enrolled in a Protestant school for those very reasons. Less offensive overall, but still religious.

It should be the job of the Department of Education to provide state run schools that are suitable for every child (Secular), not parents. Most parents are too busy working to provide for their children, and pay taxes to run that same Department of Education, to have time to set up schools because those that their taxes are paying for are inappropriate.

Leverarchfile · 12-05-2013 01:31PM

Kiwi in IE wrote: »

He is enrolled in a Protestant school for those very reasons. Less offensive overall, but still religious.

It should be the job of the Department of Education to provide state run schools that are suitable for every child (Secular), not parents. Most parents are too busy working to provide for their children, and pay taxes to run that same Department of Education, to have time to set up schools because those that their taxes are paying for are inappropriate.

It's understandable that you feel this way, but once you get to know Ireland a bit better, regardless of your beliefs, if I were you I would never trust or let the Irish state or any Irish government department to educate your cat adequately, never mind your child. Other parents, such as Educate together etc. put the time and effort into it for a very good reason, not just religious / non religious.

A report by the Independent Child Death Review Group found that 196 children had died while in the care of the State over period of 10 years (2000 – 2010).

Dave! · 12-05-2013 02:30PM

Out of interest, how would opponents of a secular education system feel about the introduction of an education system that segregated students along political ideological lines? e.g. we could have Marxist schools, Libertarian schools, Fascist schools, etc. And there could be certain classes where the students are taught the tenets of the particular system ('ethos') endorsed by the school, and told that this is the right way to govern a state.

Is religion the only ideology that it's acceptable to organise an educational system around?

Leverarchfile · 12-05-2013 02:36PM

Dave! wrote: »

Out of interest, how would opponents of a secular education system feel about the introduction of an education system that segregated students along political ideological lines? e.g. we could have Marxist schools, Libertarian schools, Fascist schools, etc. And there could be certain classes where the students are taught the tenets of the particular system ('ethos') endorsed by the school, and told that this is the right way to govern a state.

Is religion the only ideology that it's acceptable to organise an educational system around?

I've never met anyone that opposes a parents having their own secular school provided they are not trying to do away with other parents schools.

Why should a Protestant school be considered equivalent to a fascist school, and why do you assume they teach children the right way to govern a state is a by Protestantism ?

Dave! · 12-05-2013 02:42PM

You answered a question with a question there... and you muddled a few things together too!

I was asking what's the difference between a religious ideology and a political ideology, which makes it acceptable to organise an education system around the former but not the latter.

why do you assume they teach children the right way to govern a state is a by Protestantism ?

I don't. That doesn't make any sense. I was saying a school with a political ideology might teach that, whereas a school with a religious ideology would teach other things from the perspective of their own ethos.

edit:

Although having said that, Muslim Madrasas and Sharia Law might complicate the "religious ideology as a means of governing a State" thing.

Leverarchfile · 12-05-2013 03:42PM

Dave! wrote: »

You answered a question with a question there... and you muddled a few things together too!

I was asking what's the difference between a religious ideology and a political ideology, which makes it acceptable to organise an education system around the former but not the latter.

I don't. That doesn't make any sense. I was saying a school with a political ideology might teach that, whereas a school with a religious ideology would teach other things from the perspective of their own ethos.

edit:

Although having said that, Muslim Madrasas and Sharia Law might complicate the "religious ideology as a means of governing a State" thing.

Politics and religion is not the same thing, you seem to be confused. Where is the demand for these fascist schools and why would they pass a department inspection ?

Gumbi · 12-05-2013 05:37PM

Leverarchfile wrote: »

Politics and religion is not the same thing, you seem to be confused. Where is the demand for these fascist schools and why would they pass a department inspection ?

Would you stand for fascist school systems being in place if that were the case?

Kiwi in IE · 12-05-2013 06:47PM

Leverarchfile wrote: »

It's understandable that you feel this way, but once you get to know Ireland a bit better, regardless of your beliefs, if I were you I would never trust or let the Irish state or any Irish government department to educate your cat adequately, never mind your child. Other parents, such as Educate together etc. put the time and effort into it for a very good reason, not just religious / non religious.

A report by the Independent Child Death Review Group found that 196 children had died while in the care of the State over period of 10 years (2000 – 2010).

Would you trust the RCC?

shruikan2553 · 12-05-2013 08:12PM

Leverarchfile wrote: »

It's understandable that you feel this way, but once you get to know Ireland a bit better, regardless of your beliefs, if I were you I would never trust or let the Irish state or any Irish government department to educate your cat adequately, never mind your child. Other parents, such as Educate together etc. put the time and effort into it for a very good reason, not just religious / non religious.

A report by the Independent Child Death Review Group found that 196 children had died while in the care of the State over period of 10 years (2000 – 2010).

The catholic church has harmed several times more than that in Ireland so by that logic we should trust the state more. We aren't sending our children to stay in the school for their entire education, they go for a few hours a day to be taught and then come home.

Leverarchfile wrote: »

Politics and religion is not the same thing, you seem to be confused. Where is the demand for these fascist schools and why would they pass a department inspection ?

How does the ideas of the two differ? Religion and political views can vary from person to person and someone may want their children to learn from a different political view over another just as people do with religion. They are not that much different in the idea of teaching children.

robp · 15-05-2013 08:12PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

The catholic church has harmed several times more than that in Ireland so by that logic we should trust the state more. We aren't sending our children to stay in the school for their entire education, they go for a few hours a day to be taught and then come home.

How does the ideas of the two differ? Religion and political views can vary from person to person and someone may want their children to learn from a different political view over another just as people do with religion. They are not that much different in the idea of teaching children.

If that was the case why hasn't such schools opened up? Its a purely non realistic scenario.

shruikan2553 · 15-05-2013 09:43PM

robp wrote: »

If that was the case why hasn't such schools opened up? Its a purely non realistic scenario.

Because it is a stupid idea, the only reason it exists for religion is because they set up the education system

Zombrex · 16-05-2013 05:08PM

robp wrote: »

If that was the case why hasn't such schools opened up? Its a purely non realistic scenario.

You don't really understand the point of thought experiments do you? :rolleyes:

Civil rights leader - Black people should have the same voting rights as white people, imagine if white people weren't allowed vote, there would be outrage
robp - But no one is arguing that white people shouldn't be allowed vote
Civil rights leader - Er, yes, that is the point
robp - Totally non-realistic scenario then.
Civil rigths leader - Touche sir, well played!

lmaopml · 17-05-2013 09:35PM

Zombrex, if you had a means to do so, would you introduce a system of schooling that you think is ideal according to what you think secular is or should be, against the wishes of parents in Ireland who may think different to you?

Thought experiment!

Sulla Felix · 17-05-2013 11:15PM

lmaopml wrote: »

Zombrex, if you had a means to do so, would you introduce a system of schooling that you think is ideal according to what you think secular is or should be, against the wishes of parents in Ireland who may think different to you?

Thought experiment!

I don't know why any christian would be against a sunday school system rather than the perfunctory, rote teaching of the scripture that gets done on primary school.
Im an atheist but really, my opposition is based on feeling the time spent on the communion and confo stuff being
Better spent elsewhere rather than it being a particularly effective tool of indoctrination. I have no great fear of my kids going through the system precisely because they'll never be exposed to a properly charismatic and knowledgeable tutor.

Really, I think it's a win win situation. Secularists get religion out of schools and the religious would get tge chance to impart a proper religious education to their children

J C · 17-05-2013 11:29PM

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Using census figures for religion is a joke. My mother, aunt, uncle and girlfriend would say they are catholic on a census but would also say they dont follow the church at all and are instead more spiritualistic( aka "cultural catholic" which is what makes the census useless in this regard), this is just in my family but the only people who are actually catholic by following catholic beliefs are my grandparents, I doubt my family is the only one in the country like this.

I don't think they would classify themselves as Atheists ... nor would they want children to be taught to reject religion and God. They are Cultural Christians, at the very least ... and they therefore want their Faith and culture to be transmitted to their children and grandchildren.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

There is certainly a demise in Irish Christianity and I would say that the reductions shown below suggest that it isn't going to get any better.

Look hear at church attendance:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Religion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

And here for 53% of Ireland answered no to "Does religion occupy an important place in your life?":
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Irreligion_in_the_Republic_of_Ireland

You're confusing a decline in religious practice with a demise in Christian Faith. They're two quite separate things ... as the Census proves.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

From what I've heard on boards most parents didnt even know there was a vote and yet the majority of areas decided that they want the option of multi-denominational school:
http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0402/379344-23-new-multi-denominational-schools-recommended/

Ireland claims it is a multi cultural society, might be time we start acting like it in the area of education instead of giving priority to a group where most dont even care.

Ireland is a predominantly (90%) Christian country with a minority (10%) made up of a multiplicity of diverse cultural and religious beliefs.
I'm all for multi-culturalism ... which imples a respect for the public expression of all religious cultures and not their exclusion ... which is what the Secular model in French and American schools does.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

ET schools are growing in popularity and yet look at how they run things
"In Educate Together schools, all members of the school community are encouraged to share their religious and non-religious beliefs with the whole school community. In this way children develop the necessary knowledge, skills and attitudes to interact critically across different viewpoints within an atmosphere of equal respect.

Sounds great ... I'd be very interested in when has an ET school invited a Born Again Biblical Christian to share their Faith perspective with the 'whole school community'?

shruikan2553 wrote: »

School facilities are often made available to families wishing to organise faith formation classes, such as those which prepare children for the Catholic sacraments. These classes operate on an ‘opt-in’ basis outside the compulsory school day"

Most of these schools would be completely unviable in Ireland if Christian children didn't attend them ... so providing a room after school hours to Christian Pastors would seem to be more of a necessity than a virtue in order to keep Christian parents 'on board'.
I'd also point out that despite their claims of 'encouraging all members of the School community to share their religous beliefs' ... this apparently doesn't seem to be done during school hours ... or if it is, it seems to exclude Christian Pastors from the process - as they apparently have to come in when the school is closed to share their religious perspectives - and the 'opt in' processs ensures that they don't get to talk to the 'whole school community'. It sounds more like the marginalisation and isolation of religion to outside of school hours and the minimisatrion of its audience, rather than the facilitation and public celebration and expression of religion within the school community. I could be wrong because I don't know how these schools work - so I await correction by somebody who does know, if I am wrong.

shruikan2553 wrote: »

Exactly how I said schools should be run, but this isnt what the 90% of the population who are Catholics want right?

The ET thing sounds great in theory ... but I'd be very interested in exactly how all members of the school community are encouraged to share their religious and non-religious beliefs with the whole school community.
How exactly is this done?

J C · 17-05-2013 11:37PM

Sulla Felix wrote: »

Really, I think it's a win win situation. Secularists get religion out of schools and the religious would get the chance to impart a proper religious education to their children

... ah but irreligion wouldn't be taken out of school with this model ... it would actually ensure that irreligion would be there with no practical opposition ... and you would end up with children being taught 5 days a week for 6 hours a day within an ethos of practical atheism (and several hours homework each night as well) ... and sunday school trying vainly to compete for an hour a week.

Sounds like a perfect recipe for promoting Secularism ... and the elimination of Christianity allright.

Delirium · 17-05-2013 11:46PM

J C wrote: »

... ah but irreligion wouldn't be taken out of school with this model ... it would be there with no practical opposition ... and you would end up with childen being being taught 5 days a week for 6 hours a day within an ethos of practical atheism (and several hours homework each night as well) ... and sunday school trying vainly to compete for an hour a week.

Sounds like a perfect recipe for promoting Secularism ... and the elimination of Christianity allright.

Is Christianity so fragile that if you don't have the government instructing children daily in it, it will just crumble? Parents are unable to raise their kids in the Christian tradition and ensure the survival of the religion without the aid of the government?

Correct me if I'm wrong but didn't Christianity rise in a land where the ruling powers tried to stamp it out? What makes modern governments better able to eliminate Christianity now compared to ancient times? Even though the followers of Christ would have minuscule numbers compared to the numbers in society today.

Communion and Confirmation grants scrapped...

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