Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

Hijpo · 14-05-2013 08:19PM

Going Forward wrote: »

The numbers are not relevant at all now, as the LPT legislation is probably the tightest ever written, to ensure maximum enforcement.

What I find ironic and faintly amusing is the likes of John Bruton and other well heeled members of the establishment exhortating the rest of us to embrace austerity.

Easy enough when you're in receipt of a generous state pension I suppose.

Which does make me wonder, what exactly would be the motivation for an "ordinary Joe soap" to support further taxation on his own income?

Does he see himself as some sort of martyr for the economic health of the nation?

Or a party activist?

Not to mention when there personal secretary could possibly earning 30k in overtime. Or even €71,353 in overtime, mileage and subsistence.

Imagine extorting €400 from a family living in a house worth €150,000 and then spending €250,000 to kit out one single office.

One office for one person costing more to kit out than the asking price for a 3 bed semi for a family :eek:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/son-of-dail-spending-chief-earned-30k-in-overtime-with-dad-29263855.html

Yes, lets all give them more money without question because they really and truely do not get enough from taxes, levies and charges already.

Actually i notice in that article they say

The Irish Independent previously revealed how the taxpayer spent €250,000

As a tax payer i dont remember signing off on the request to spend €250,000 on his office, do any of ye?
im not quiet sure how the taxpayer gets the title of spender when it comes to these things when all we do is supply the never ending stream of funding without any kind of say on what its spent on.

Le_Dieux · 14-05-2013 08:24PM

Hijpo wrote: »

Not to mention when there personal secretary could possibly earning 30k in overtime. Or even €71,353 in overtime, mileage and subsistence.

Imagine extorting €400 from a family living in a house worth €150,000 and then spending €250,000 to kit out one single office.

One office for one person costing more to kit out than the asking price for a 3 bed semi for a family :eek:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/son-of-dail-spending-chief-earned-30k-in-overtime-with-dad-29263855.html

Yes, lets all give them more money without question because they really and truely do not get enough from taxes, levies and charges already.

Actually i notice in that article they say

As a tax payer i dont remember signing off on the request to spend €250,000 on his office, do any of ye?
im not quiet sure how the taxpayer gets the title of spender when it comes to these things when all we do is supply the never ending stream of funding without any kind of say on what its spent on.

I read that article today, felt SICK to the pits of my stomach. They are ALL at it, get into DE and become an ace at nepotism.

Banjo String · 14-05-2013 08:27PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Methinks they really detest being reminded of Enda's statement on Property Tax.

Ah now Tayto, Endas wasn't the only cringeworthy statement from a pre-election populist party.

Here's Leo from waaaay back in 2008.

“The National Economic and Social Council (NESC) is a Government body under the aegis of Brian Cowen’s Department. The Council consists of the great and the good from the Social Partnership system along with the Taoiseach’s right hand men and women. It is funded by the Department of the Taoiseach and is chaired by Dermot McCarthy, the Secretary General of the Department of the Taoiseach. The Deputy Chairperson, Mary Doyle is also a senior official in the Taoiseach’s Department. Other members include trade union bosses David Begg, Peter McLoone and Jack O’Connor, IBEC’s Turlough O’Sullivan, Fr Sean Healy, Sean Gorman (Secretary General of the Department of Enterprise, Trade and Employment) and the Taoiseach’s special advisor, Peter Clinch.

“Fine Gael in Government abolished the Residential Property Tax and is not in favour of re-introducing it. A property tax would further depress the housing market and would plunge Ireland even deeper into recession.

“Brian Cowen should immediately rule out the introduction of a property tax and to make it clear to the country that he is dissociating himself from the NESC on this matter.”

http://leovaradkar.ie/2008/07/varadkar-calls-on-cowen-to-rule-out-property-tax/

Then we have the man in charge of introducing the controversial household charge, a charge that was meant to

will support the provision of local services

, Big Phil Hogan, who wont pay towards services in his own gaff:

ENVIRONMENT Minister Phil Hogan, who is in the eye of a storm over the household charge, is refusing to pay service charges on his penthouse apartment in Portugal, the Sunday Independent can reveal.

Mr Hogan, who has an apartment in Villamoura on the Algarve, has an outstanding service charge of €4,320, according to a 'debtors' list document dated March 27.

Yesterday, the minister confirmed that fees "of that order" were outstanding but said that he was in dispute with the apartment complex's management company.

"Would you pay a charge if you were unhappy with the service?" he asked. :pac::pac::pac:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/phil-hogan-refuses-to-pay-4k-service-charges-on-his-portugal-holiday-penthouse-26838412.html

And its not like Phil couldn't afford it either.

FINE Gael frontbencher Phil Hogan yesterday refused to elaborate on the "personal circumstances" preventing him following his party leader in taking a voluntary pay cut from his €110,000 salary.
His party is currently calling for wage cuts on those earning over €100,000 in the public sector.

Leader Enda Kenny took a voluntary pay cut of 5pc since last October.
But Mr Hogan yesterday said he would not be following his own party's example.

"No. My personal circumstances don't allow that at the moment," Mr Hogan said.

The Carlow-Kilkenny TD last night insisted there was no contradiction between the party's official policy on wage cuts and his own refusal to take a voluntary pay cut.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/fine-gael-deputy-on-e110000-cant-take-wage-cut-26515140.html

The real icing on the cake for me was this statement from Enda in Jan 2012.....

He said: "We are not going to have the name defaulter written across our foreheads.

"We will pay our way, we have never looked for a debt write-down. We do want an extension of flexibility in these facilities to help our taxpayers to help us deal with our deficit and to help us pay our debts in a more realistic fashion.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breakingnews/ireland/taoiseach-we-will-not-have-name-of-defaulter-across-our-foreheads-537162.html

But only in July 2012, face palm:D

Minister for Health James Reilly is expected to explain to the Dáil tomorrow why his name appeared in Stubbs Gazette over an unpaid debt.

(in the name of fairness, this is linked back to RTE btw)
http://www.rte.ie/news/2012/0710/328538-james-reilly-debt-default/

Do as I say FG.

Stay classy y'all.

Le_Dieux · 14-05-2013 08:59PM

Going Forward wrote: »

The numbers are not relevant at all now, as the LPT legislation is probably the tightest ever written, to ensure maximum enforcement.

What I find ironic and faintly amusing is the likes of John Bruton and other well heeled members of the establishment exhortating the rest of us to embrace austerity.

Easy enough when you're in receipt of a generous state pension I suppose.

Which does make me wonder, what exactly would be the motivation for an "ordinary Joe soap" to support further taxation on his own income?

Does he see himself as some sort of martyr for the economic health of the nation?

Or a party activist?

Kenny is a copy of J Bruton. Was't he the gaffer who slapped VAT on Children's shoes and they got driven out of Kildare Street for 20 odd years?

Here in 2013 we have ek trying to do the exact same thing all over again.

Reminds me of the song: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1QZq-wKaBWc

Phoebas · 14-05-2013 09:11PM

Le_Dieux wrote: »

Kenny is a copy of J Bruton. Was't he the gaffer who slapped VAT on Children's shoes and they got driven out of Kildare Street for 20 odd years?

Actually, for just one year. FF took over after that budget was defeated, they lasted less than one year and FG/LAB were back in power after that with Bruton back in a ministerial position.

Not that it has a whole lot to do with the LPT, but unfortunately and inevitably this thread is going the same way as all other Property Tax threads seem to go.

Going Forward · 14-05-2013 09:35PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Actually, for just one year. FF took over after that budget was defeated, they lasted less than one year and FG/LAB were back in power after that with Bruton back in a ministerial position.

Not that it has a whole lot to do with the LPT, but unfortunately and inevitably this thread is going the same way as all other Property Tax threads seem to go.

What way? People rejecting the property tax?

Are you waiting for some kind of national Pauline conversion in favour?

Le_Dieux · 14-05-2013 09:42PM

Re phoebas's post: Actually, for just one year. FF took over after that budget was defeated, they lasted less than one year and FG/LAB were back in power after that with Bruton back in a ministerial position.

Not that it has a whole lot to do with the LPT, but unfortunately and inevitably this thread is going the same way as all other Property Tax threads seem to go.

What You mean? As far as I can recall the HHC thread on AH clocked up something like 30,000 posts before it was locked down.

Personally, I don't like when people come on here making false statements to further their argument (re my post above to MA84 - who I might add stated last week, She was withdrawing from this thread as it was getting too personal, or words to that effect). And now, we have someone who claims to be from the arséhole of nowhere lecturing us about what the Charter says.

I am of the opinion that there are cllrs or higher up in power on this thread and I would think it's in their interest to have this thread locked down as it doesn't suit their aims. Hope I am wrong, but I just cannot fathom how a person can come on here and make a statement along the lines of 'I love paying taxes'

Phoebas · 14-05-2013 09:52PM

Going Forward wrote: »

What way? People rejecting the property tax?

Are you waiting for some kind of national Pauline conversion in favour?

quod erat demonstrandum

Scofflaw · 14-05-2013 11:01PM

Le Dieux, banned again, this time a week. tayto lover's original use of a Mod post to score a cheap point was just about forgivable (once), but Le Dieux's repeated follow-up use was taking the mick.

moderately,
Scofflaw

Am Chile · 14-05-2013 11:10PM

The document of the attackthetax summons of the high court challenge they are meant to bringing.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4Own72GRjrdZlo4YnpBRU1lSGs/edit

Going Forward · 14-05-2013 11:19PM

Phoebas wrote: »

quod erat demonstrandum

i cant believe its not butter

cageyeuclid · 15-05-2013 02:30AM

Phoebas wrote: »

quod erat demonstrandum

Q.E.D. should only be used to state that something has been argued successfully.

I cannot find one single argument from you justifying LPT on the poor.
In fact, you have uncaringly dismissed the very poor as an extreme example.

A law without justification should be made to fail in my opinion. (I believe Jefferson got it right).

I have given lots of reasoned argument why LPT is unjust, unfair and cruel, and SA comments (we should call them O’Reilly’s) by posters makes me more convinced that LPT is inherently unjust for all.
Your insistence that it has got to be paid has only stoked the fires of outright non compliance, and there you are quite helpful.

However, this is a forum where (like any good forum) it should contain reasoned argument; then and only then should you reasonably use Q.E.D. otherwise it just comes across as just SA nonsense.

How about a post to clarify the Dublin City Councillor answer re LPT:

“ ...this will be a reserved function of the Councillors. The normal General Purpose Grant or Local Government fund will be cut and it will force councillors to increase the charge in my view.”

BTW it seems some people think Local Govt rates were abolished ... afraid not ... as any business will tell you.

Also BTW I agree with Scoff; the banner was at the bottom of my posts automatically and getting boring. Apologies to all, hate to bore you.

barrackali · 15-05-2013 08:23AM

Am Chile wrote: »

The document of the attackthetax summons of the high court challenge they are meant to bringing.

https://docs.google.com/file/d/0B4Own72GRjrdZlo4YnpBRU1lSGs/edit

That document is laughable...I'll tell you what chance they have of getting this tax scrapped.....none!

Phoebas · 15-05-2013 08:29AM

barrackali wrote: »

That document is laughable...I'll tell you what chance they have of getting this tax scrapped.....none!

I see they are looking for an order of costs. I wonder will costs be awarded against them when this nonsense is thrown out of court.

barrackali · 15-05-2013 08:55AM

When this nonsense of a "case" is thrown out I'd expect the state to be awarded their costs.

Banjo String · 15-05-2013 09:25AM

Musgrave complain property tax is affecting their sales.

Less money in the domestic economy, obviously will affect consumer spending power.

Musgrave, the biggest Irish owned retailer which runs the SuperValu and Centra empire, suffered a blip in sales as a result of the arrival of the hated property tax, according to chief executive Chris Martin.

problem with austerity is that it pushes people all the way. We've seen that in the last couple of weeks with the local property tax applications. It has clearly knocked consumers back. You can see it in the numbers. Not big amounts, but one minute you're up and the next you're not," Martin told the Sunday Independent.

"We'd seen good sales in Q1 and what we've seen in recent weeks is that March has been difficult for retailers. It wasn't as good as January or February. You can align that up with what happened," he said. "You're seeing a real reaction to all these things. Maybe four or five years ago you wouldn't have seen that as it was just continuous growth."

The property tax represented a wobble in Musgrave's otherwise bumper results, as group sales jumped 11 per cent to €4.9bn and operating profits increased by 13 per cent. Musgrave is now one of the few retailers in the country to record profit growth despite the downturn. The company plans to expand in Ireland this year with 65 new stores, creating 600 jobs. Musgrave is the second largest employer in the State with 34,000 staff – trailing the HSE.

Keep it up fg/lab.

http://www.independent.ie/business/irish/property-tax-hits-sales-at-retail-giant-musgrave-29226528.html

Phoebas · 15-05-2013 10:23AM

SamHall wrote: »

Musgrave complain property tax is affecting their sales.

Its pretty obvious that any tax impacts the economy, and there have been lots of people who are against the LPT wanting an income tax rise instead. One of the common arguments for a property tax is that it is the least worse option in terms of impacting the economy, particularly the labour market.

Musgraves are doing quite well despite it. Obviously I wouldn't expect you to credit FG/LAB for the relative stabilisation of the economy that allows them to report such positive figures.

The property tax represented a wobble in Musgrave's otherwise bumper results, as group sales jumped 11 per cent to €4.9bn and operating profits increased by 13 per cent.

...

The company plans to expand in Ireland this year with 65 new stores, creating 600 jobs.

cageyeuclid · 15-05-2013 06:35PM

Phoebas wrote: »

Its pretty obvious that any tax impacts the economy, and there have been lots of people who are against the LPT wanting an income tax rise instead. One of the common arguments for a property tax is that it is the least worse option in terms of impacting the economy, particularly the labour market.

Musgraves are doing quite well despite it. Obviously I wouldn't expect you to credit FG/LAB for the relative stabilisation of the economy that allows them to report such positive figures.

But, LPT is the worst option in terms of impacting the largest number of poor.

There are many posts in here explaining why the better (than LPT) option of an income tax rise has not happened,
that is due to the FG pre election promise which will eventually cause FGs demise, and more so the decimation of Labour.

Of course to get right to the heart of the deficit problem, a 20% cut in civil service salaries would be the optimum action for the economy, since it would affect the least number of people and since it has been posted in here that the LPT can easily be afforded, an extra 13% salary cut on top of the already projected 7% would be no problem to them instead of LPT. That 20% is where LPT is headed in any case, and the pro LPT posts in here leave little sympathy for revenue, very much in line with the lack of sympathy Phoebas has for the poorest.

Of course on even better option is for this lazy government to amend the LPT to take into account the financial circumstances of each homeowner (which should have been done in the first case) and to enshrine into the new LPT law a proper binding upper cap (no LG element) and the repeal of the amended LPT on the family home as soon as the deficit reduction allows. This last would lessen the possibility of a successful high court action (a la agri land 1982).
The worst aspect of the above is that govt promises would hardly be believed.

Isn’t revenue supposed to have the relevant information (financial circumstances of each homeowner) to hand anyway or are they as lazy as this govt?

Come on guys, wise up. Musgrave successfully purchased and reorganised SuperQuinn ... hence the extra turnover.

Right now, mass non compliance seems on the cards and any “you will have to pay” posts will only stimulate that non compliance.

Roll on the Local Elections where L in front of LPT will be the biggest mistake this lazy govt has made.
The cruel LPT will be rejected on every doorstep (except Phoebas’s doorstep, if he has one which I doubt, considering 20% LPT is no problem to him).

tayto lover · 15-05-2013 07:26PM

I cannot believe this story -

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0515/450449-new-laws-to-identify-those-without-waste-service/

People who are not using waste providers are to be sought out and prosecuted. I know people who have no waste service as they burn all their rubbish in their pot-belly stove and food goes into compost bin.

What next? A compulsory broadcasting charge?

This shower really can't get enough austerity charges in.
Oh how the Labour leaders of old must be spinning in their graves.
Why not just prosecute the people they find dumping illegally?

Phoebas · 15-05-2013 07:31PM

cageyeuclid wrote: »

But, LPT is the worst option in terms of impacting the largest number of poor.

I've heard a lot of crazy stuff spouted about property tax, but this takes the biscuit.

Banjo String · 15-05-2013 07:59PM

Phoebas wrote: »

One of the common arguments for a property tax is that it is the least worse option in terms of impacting the economy, particularly the labour market.

Common argument from whom though? Leo doesn't seem to share that view.

Phoebas wrote: »

Musgraves are doing quite well despite it. Obviously I wouldn't expect you to credit FG/LAB for the relative stabilisation of the economy that allows them to report such positive figures.

The only thing I'll credit labour and FG with, will be the day they admit that u-turned in almost every vote deciding factor promise that they made to the public.

They both have distanced themselves so much from the electorate that put them where they are, they should do the amicable thing now and hand the cards over to Michael D.

What's the latest on payment figures now btw?

Going Forward · 15-05-2013 09:35PM

cageyeuclid wrote: »

Q.E.D. should only be used to state that something has been argued successfully.

It's a tactic used by someone who has run out of steam.

I'm still intrigued by whether there is any political motivation by anyone posting in favour of this tax.

I've never met anyone in person who is passionately in favour of it. Do such people exist?

Of course that doesn't mean that none exist outside of political circles; as some will have the means to pay it and won't even miss it, so they may fit into the high earnings category which has not borne the brunt of austerity.

There is nothing to prevent politically involved persons spreading propaganda, just for the record I have no involvement with any party or group.

oscarBravo · 15-05-2013 09:40PM

Going Forward wrote: »

I've never met anyone in person who is passionately in favour of it. Do such people exist?

Of course that doesn't mean that none exist outside of political circles; as some will have the means to pay it and won't even miss it, so they may fit into the high earnings category which has not borne the brunt of austerity.

It's also possible that some people welcome the idea of broadening the tax base, having seen the devastating consequences of eroding it so drastically.

kippy · 15-05-2013 10:03PM

How many poor "own" a house?

What is the definition of poor being used here?

Phoebas · 15-05-2013 10:07PM

kippy wrote: »

What is the definition of poor being used here?

A very, very liberal one.

Banjo String · 15-05-2013 10:13PM

oscarBravo wrote: »

It's also possible that some people welcome the idea of broadening the tax base, having seen the devastating consequences of eroding it so drastically.

Introducing a third rate of taxation for high earners would/could be classed as 'broadening the tax base'.

I fear this is the last unbroken promise the FG party are clinging to.

Hopefully with mass non compliance with the property tax, this will prove to be yet another u-turn though.

kippy · 15-05-2013 10:17PM

SamHall wrote: »

Introducing a third rate of taxation for high earners would/could be classed as 'broadening the tax base'.

I fear this is the last unbroken promise the FG party are clinging to.

Hopefully with mass non compliance with the property tax, this will prove to be yet another u-turn though.

You are aware of the stats associated with high earners (PAYE based ones) and taxation?

I'd add at this point that there are certain categories of people that will genuinely find a property tax "tough" and may view it as grossly unfair, however it is required.

oscarBravo · 15-05-2013 10:21PM

SamHall wrote: »

Introducing a third rate of taxation for high earners would/could be classed as 'broadening the tax base'.

Not much, no. Our income tax system is already so progressive as to be almost ridiculous.

tayto lover · 15-05-2013 10:34PM

kippy wrote: »

How many poor "own" a house?

What is the definition of poor being used here?

Poor = most of us who work to pay mortgages and feed our families.
Rich = the FG supporters who follow blindly.

kippy · 15-05-2013 10:46PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Poor = most of us who work to pay mortgages and feed our families.
Rich = the FG supporters who follow blindly.

Sorry Tayto, is that meant to be sarcastic or serious?

Property Tax (MOD REMINDER: Don't get too personal)

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