Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

donalg1 · 10-05-2013 09:16AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

You cannot allow for every situation however in general most people will marry/co-habit/live with people in there own socio-economic group note I highlighted most. The government has little to do with pay in the private sector we are dealing with a situation where we need to balance the book and look at cuts that will have least effect on the economy and at the same time improves public services to ordinary people. All the money that the government receives in tax cannot be use to protect PS wages at the expense of services which is what is happening.

Do you honestly think cutting pay in the PS will magically improve services? How would this happen? Would someone say "here is a pay cut now work harder" maybe?

I would say a pay cut would have the opposite effect on services or may not effect them whatsoever. And all the money the government receives in taxes does not go on protecting PS wages, maybe 10 - 20% of it pays the PS wages, I think Government Expenditure on SW was about 39% last year.

And then there are all the other aspects of Government Expenditure to consider.

And these ordinary people you refer to, who are these people? Are they anyone that is not employed in the PS, you seem to assume that the people employed in the PS dont use the services provided that they have them magically provided for them by the leprechauns or something.

Hotblack Desiato · 10-05-2013 10:31AM

donalg1 wrote: »

Would someone say "here is a pay cut now work harder" maybe?

People here seem to forget that they've already done this. Twice.

creedp · 10-05-2013 10:43AM

ninja900 wrote: »

People here seem to forget that they've already done this. Twice.

No, no don't you know CP protected PS wages while everybody else were having their's slashed!

I referred to this many a time and you're correct its completetly ignored. As I said previously, someone on over €65k will have take a 15% pay cut prior to CP1 and are now looking at another 5.5% .. but apparently they still need to have their pay 'slashed'. One wonders at the definition of slashed in a PS context when you consider that (heavily caveated that this is an average!!) CSO statistics show that construction wages have reduced by approx 11% since the downturn even though that sector has seen the worst meltdown of any sector in this recession. Given the continuous hyperbole around the ability of the private sector to adjust wages in line with ability to pay and recognition of supply and demand in an aconomy, 11% must represent a reasonable definition of 'slashed wages' in the private sector. So presumably people have a somewhat different definition for 'slashed' in a PS context!

donalg1 · 10-05-2013 10:58AM

ninja900 wrote: »

People here seem to forget that they've already done this. Twice.

So by some peoples logic then we can assume services have vastly improved as a direct result of these two pay cuts!

barneystinson · 10-05-2013 11:00AM

creedp wrote: »

No, no don't you know CP protected PS wages while everybody else were having their's slashed!

I referred to this many a time and you're correct its completetly ignored. As I said previously, someone on over €65k will have take a 15% pay cut prior to CP1 and are now looking at another 5.5% .. but apparently they still need to have their pay 'slashed'. One wonders at the definition of slashed in a PS context when you consider that (heavily caveated that this is an average!!) CSO statistics show that construction wages have reduced by approx 11% since the downturn even though that sector has seen the worst meltdown of any sector in this recession. Given the continuous hyperbole around the ability of the private sector to adjust wages in line with ability to pay and recognition of supply and demand in an aconomy, 11% must represent a reasonable definition of 'slashed wages' in the private sector. So presumably people have a somewhat different definition for 'slashed' in a PS context!

That's not an entirely fair comparison though, unless you also factor in the loss of jobs in that sector. Those who still have jobs are earning 11% less, but huge numbers lost their jobs. The same cant be said in the PS - there has to be a trade off between pay and job security.

Some people (including you I presume) think the cuts in pay to date fairly reflect that trade off, and no doubt others don't.

creedp · 10-05-2013 11:07AM

barneystinson wrote: »

That's not an entirely fair comparison though, unless you also factor in the loss of jobs in that sector. Those who still have jobs are earning 11% less, but huge numbers lost their jobs. The same cant be said in the PS - there has to be a trade off between pay and job security.

Some people (including you I presume) think the cuts in pay to date fairly reflect that trade off, and no doubt others don't.

Are you speaking on behalf of the people who have a job or don't have a job? Maybe you are advocating that those in the contruction sector who have a job should take a further pay cut in oder to stimulate the construction industry and re-employ more of their unemployed colleagues?

Or are you saying that PS workers should take greater cuts in solidarity with the unemployed colleagues of private sector workers.

barneystinson · 10-05-2013 11:14AM

creedp wrote: »

Are you speaking on behalf of the people who have a job or don't have a job? Maybe you are advocating that those in the contruction sector who have a job should take a further pay cut in oder to stimulate the construction industry and re-employ more of their unemployed colleagues?

Or are you saying that PS workers should take greater cuts in solidarity with the unemployed colleagues of private sector workers.

I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone but myself, are you? What kind of question is that?!

I'm not advocating anything - I'm expressing the opinion that your comparison was not very valid, just like most of the attempts to compare the 2 sectors. I'm on the PS side of the fence here too, so don't jump down my throat, but these types of comparison are no more valid than when someone tries to compare running the PS to running a company.

It's got nothing to do with solidarity; if you, I and the rest of the PS want to maintain our job security, then pay/hours have to be on the table. If we want to maintain our pay then redundancies have to be on the table. That's the unfortunate reality as I see it.

sean200 · 10-05-2013 12:44PM

Great to see the private sector getting their wages cut and we need a lot more of this
http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/boots-in-bonus-cut-threat-over-pay-dispute-593945.html
Great also to see the Supreme Court strike down as unconstitutional a law providing for registered employment agreements which sets rates of pay in certain sectors. This should lead to the wage cuts to about 80k in the private sector who are overpaid but they might have to be sacked first and then rehired
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/supreme-court-strikes-down-unconstitutional-rea-law-593872.html

donalg1 · 10-05-2013 12:47PM

sean200 wrote: »

Great to see the private sector getting their wages cut and we need a lot more of this
http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/boots-in-bonus-cut-threat-over-pay-dispute-593945.html
Great also to see the Supreme Court strike down as unconstitutional a law providing for registered employment agreements which sets rates of pay in certain sectors. This should lead to the wage cuts to about 80k in the private sector who are overpaid but they might have to be sacked first and then rehired
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/supreme-court-strikes-down-unconstitutional-rea-law-593872.html

Don't think its great to see anyone getting pay cuts, unless of course they are earning a small fortune like the AIB fella on 800k

Cody Pomeray · 10-05-2013 01:07PM

ardmacha wrote: »

The modern approach is data mining and the like to identify suspect cases so that regular people are not targetted. No doubt data mining experts will be queuing up to join the Revenue and get their pay cut, it is not as if they could get a job somewhere else.

What data would they be analyzing, just out of interest?

I worked for an employer once on a Summer job, he ran rings around the Revenue without them seeming willing or capable to do anything about it. Un-anncounced Revenue visits every few months, told them what we knew (SFA) he kept the staff in the dark about everything in case we passed on info. About 5 years on, seems he's still at it, business is booming !

On a better referenced story, the failure of Revenue to do anything about black market cigarettes is also pretty disturbing.

So I'm just curious about what data mining involved because it seems like they may not always be getting the very basics right.

ardmacha · 10-05-2013 01:21PM

What data would they be analyzing, just out of interest?

I don't know exactly, and they probably don't say, for obvious reasons. But say someone the property tax shows someone living in a giant house, who never had any income much, this might make them more interesting.

vinylbomb · 10-05-2013 01:29PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

What data would they be analyzing, just out of interest?

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/big-brother-software-will-find-tax-cheats-says-feehily-29255514.html

vinylbomb · 10-05-2013 01:31PM

sean200 wrote: »

Great to see the private sector getting their wages cut and we need a lot more of this
http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/boots-in-bonus-cut-threat-over-pay-dispute-593945.html
Great also to see the Supreme Court strike down as unconstitutional a law providing for registered employment agreements which sets rates of pay in certain sectors. This should lead to the wage cuts to about 80k in the private sector who are overpaid but they might have to be sacked first and then rehired
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/supreme-court-strikes-down-unconstitutional-rea-law-593872.html

Are you being ironic, or just flip-flopping?

creedp · 10-05-2013 01:36PM

barneystinson wrote: »

I'm not speaking on behalf of anyone but myself, are you? What kind of question is that?!

I'm not advocating anything - I'm expressing the opinion that your comparison was not very valid, just like most of the attempts to compare the 2 sectors. I'm on the PS side of the fence here too, so don't jump down my throat, but these types of comparison are no more valid than when someone tries to compare running the PS to running a company.

It's got nothing to do with solidarity; if you, I and the rest of the PS want to maintain our job security, then pay/hours have to be on the table. If we want to maintain our pay then redundancies have to be on the table. That's the unfortunate reality as I see it.

Not jumping down your throat in any way, simply responding to and disagreeing with your point that when comparing PS wages to private sector wages there is a need to reflect the number of private sector workers who have been made unemployed (and has been pointed out here on a number of occasions are therefore on a €0 income so have taken a 100% pay cut). My point being given that in the constructions sector massive lay-off of construction workers has resulted in an average reduction of 11% in pay of construction workers still in the job why should PS workers have to take a further pay reduction in excess of the 15% already taken.

I agree with your point that these comparisons are not don't very valid but this thread did not get to where it is today without such comparisons being made.

On the solidarity issue - fine no solidarity it is. Then why are people surprised that PS workers don't vote in favour of a further pay cut for themselves to preserve the living standards of others. Where does it end - maybe the PS should not have a contract of employment but simply agree to work in the PS for whatever is left over each year when the bills are paid.

creedp · 10-05-2013 01:43PM

sean200 wrote: »

Great to see the private sector getting their wages cut and we need a lot more of this
http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/boots-in-bonus-cut-threat-over-pay-dispute-593945.html
Great also to see the Supreme Court strike down as unconstitutional a law providing for registered employment agreements which sets rates of pay in certain sectors. This should lead to the wage cuts to about 80k in the private sector who are overpaid but they might have to be sacked first and then rehired
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/supreme-court-strikes-down-unconstitutional-rea-law-593872.html

Dave Butler of the National Electrical Contractors of Ireland says smaller employers will have more say in any future employment agreements: “We have no problems with REAs per se but the problem with this was only a small section of employers were allowed input and the rest were left outside the door.

Interesting quote .. could replace 'REAs' with 'CP2' and 'employers' with 'PS Unions' and not notice the difference.

vinylbomb · 10-05-2013 03:43PM

creedp wrote: »

Not jumping down your throat in any way, simply responding to and disagreeing with your point that when comparing PS wages to private sector wages there is a need to reflect the number of private sector workers who have been made unemployed (and has been pointed out here on a number of occasions are therefore on a €0 income so have taken a 100% pay cut).

My point being given that in the constructions sector massive lay-off of construction workers has resulted in an average reduction of 11% in pay of construction workers still in the job why should PS workers have to take a further pay reduction in excess of the 15% already taken.

But that is the whole point. 150,000 were made redundant from the construction sector between 2006 and 2012 (http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/labourmarket/principalstatistics/).

So you need to price in the stability that your employer brings you.

Your figure of 11% fall in construction sector wages is far short of the reality also.
This CSO paper approximates the fall to be closer to 50% up to the end of 2011.
http://www.ssisi.ie/wage_bill_change_ssisi_kw_9feb_v5.pdf

beeno67 · 10-05-2013 04:54PM

creedp wrote: »

No, no don't you know CP protected PS wages while everybody else were having their's slashed!

I referred to this many a time and you're correct its completetly ignored. As I said previously, someone on over €65k will have take a 15% pay cut prior to CP1 and are now looking at another 5.5% .. but apparently they still need to have their pay 'slashed'. One wonders at the definition of slashed in a PS context when you consider that (heavily caveated that this is an average!!) CSO statistics show that construction wages have reduced by approx 11% since the downturn even though that sector has seen the worst meltdown of any sector in this recession. Given the continuous hyperbole around the ability of the private sector to adjust wages in line with ability to pay and recognition of supply and demand in an aconomy, 11% must represent a reasonable definition of 'slashed wages' in the private sector. So presumably people have a somewhat different definition for 'slashed' in a PS context!

Given that you say someone earning €65k a year in public sector has taken a 15% pay cut shouldn't we look instead at how much they are paying for their pension. This person will get a lump sum of just under €100,000 tax free and a pension of €32,500 a year (plus a pension for his wife and other dependants after his death) all for 6.5% pension contribution a year. The pension may be a lot higher obviously if person gets promoted. Instead of more pay cuts why not concentrate on making these higher paid public sector workers pay more for their pensions I.e. the equivalent of what a private sector employee or self employed person would have to pay

woodoo · 10-05-2013 08:25PM

sean200 wrote: »

Great to see the private sector getting their wages cut and we need a lot more of this
http://www.breakingnews.ie/business/boots-in-bonus-cut-threat-over-pay-dispute-593945.html
Great also to see the Supreme Court strike down as unconstitutional a law providing for registered employment agreements which sets rates of pay in certain sectors. This should lead to the wage cuts to about 80k in the private sector who are overpaid but they might have to be sacked first and then rehired
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/supreme-court-strikes-down-unconstitutional-rea-law-593872.html

People have been warning that this will be the result of the race to the bottom. The media and commentators contently calling for wages to be slashed in the public sector set the tone and it isn't surprising then private companies jump on the bandwagon and cut their wages.

tayto lover · 10-05-2013 09:11PM

woodoo wrote: »

People have been warning that this will be the result of the race to the bottom. The media and commentators contently calling for wages to be slashed in the public sector set the tone and it isn't surprising then private companies jump on the bandwagon and cut their wages.

I predicted that myself. IBEC and ISME to the forefront of attacks on the PS in order to follow suit and cut minimum wage etc. Posters need to be reminded that what occurs in the PS continues into the Private Sector shortly after. It's all about profits and making money for the big boys.
Always has been that way and always will.
Anyone complaining about Unions need their heads examined.

Pappa Charlie · 11-05-2013 11:30AM

tayto lover wrote: »

I predicted that myself. IBEC and ISME to the forefront of attacks on the PS in order to follow suit and cut minimum wage etc. Posters need to be reminded that what occurs in the PS continues into the Private Sector shortly after. It's all about profits and making money for the big boys.
Always has been that way and always will.
Anyone complaining about Unions need their heads examined.

Meanwhile the government their spindoctors and the troika sit back and snigger at the Irish people while they take it up the ass and blame each other, it's time a clear message was sent by unions to the government that they need to defend their people and stop being puppets for the troika and bankers in Germany

Almaviva · 12-05-2013 03:40PM

Am taking the CP2 rejection and the Bus Eireann strike as positive signs that the govt is doing a good job.

I Never expected that public sector or unions in general would accept the necessary adjustment without some disruption. CP1 didnt go far enough, but was probably right for the govt to go for while it took time for the reality of Ireland's new situation to sink in. Now they are going the whole hog - with the expected knee jerk reactions. But time to tough it out. If anything, another strike or two would be positive as long as the govt sticks to its guns and implements genuine pay cuts.

Can they not implement the proposed 7% ish cuts only on the sectors that rejected CP2. I think those guys deserve to have their agreements honoured. Impose 8% on the remainder if necessary to still make the same bottom line saving.

Figerty · 12-05-2013 11:52PM

Almaviva wrote: »

Am taking the CP2 rejection and the Bus Eireann strike as positive signs that the govt is doing a good job.

I Never expected that public sector or unions in general would accept the necessary adjustment without some disruption. CP1 didnt go far enough, but was probably right for the govt to go for while it took time for the reality of Ireland's new situation to sink in. Now they are going the whole hog - with the expected knee jerk reactions. But time to tough it out. If anything, another strike or two would be positive as long as the govt sticks to its guns and implements genuine pay cuts.

Can they not implement the proposed 7% ish cuts only on the sectors that rejected CP2. I think those guys deserve to have their agreements honoured. Impose 8% on the remainder if necessary to still make the same bottom line saving.

I think you are making the mistake thinking that the government has joined up thinking.

What makes you think they are all guys????

Everybody know there has to be cuts..It's the blundering approach that was taken is the problem.

Brendan Howlin has gone to ground, Phil Hogan has gone to ground etc... James Reily should have gone to ground!

13-05-2013 12:53AM

Well well, it looks like game on.........

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0512/391784-croke-park/

It would seem (from that story) that the government has tempered its demands somewhat.

sean200 · 13-05-2013 09:48AM

Deleted User wrote: »

Well well, it looks like game on.........

http://www.rte.ie/news/2013/0512/391784-croke-park/

It would seem (from that story) that the government has tempered its demands somewhat.

I hope not as most grass root members want an all out strike and labour and FG to be bought to their knees

creedp · 13-05-2013 09:53AM

vinylbomb wrote: »

But that is the whole point. 150,000 were made redundant from the construction sector between 2006 and 2012 (http://www.cso.ie/en/statistics/labourmarket/principalstatistics/).

So you need to price in the stability that your employer brings you.

Your figure of 11% fall in construction sector wages is far short of the reality also.
This CSO paper approximates the fall to be closer to 50% up to the end of 2011.
http://www.ssisi.ie/wage_bill_change_ssisi_kw_9feb_v5.pdf

OK so now we're back to the story that the CSO figures are wrong when they don't suit.

My point being if wages were reduced further in the construction sector then maybe costs would reduce leading to a greater demand for services leading to more people being employed. This is the argument you hear all the in the PS - reduced pay leads to less need to cut numbers. Should this apply in other sectors or is it the case that the PS should take further pay cuts because those in other sectors won't?

creedp · 13-05-2013 10:02AM

beeno67 wrote: »

Given that you say someone earning €65k a year in public sector has taken a 15% pay cut shouldn't we look instead at how much they are paying for their pension. This person will get a lump sum of just under €100,000 tax free and a pension of €20,500 (€32,500 - €12,000) a year (plus a pension for his wife and other dependants after his death) all for 6.5% pension contribution a year. The pension may be a lot higher obviously if person gets promoted. Instead of more pay cuts why not concentrate on making these higher paid public sector workers pay more for their pensions I.e. the equivalent of what a private sector employee or self employed person would have to pay

Slight amendment there as the employed person will be entitled to their €12,000 contributory pension from the State irrespective of what they receive from their employer.

sharper · 13-05-2013 01:01PM

creedp wrote: »

OK so now we're back to the story that the CSO figures are wrong when they don't suit.

The CSO numbers are correct but they have to be interpreted in context, a sector in which employment changed radically is going to also have a big impact on the average wage purely from the change in numbers alone.

Apparently the position here is the CSO numbers are either valid for all contexts or valid for none, the numbers have to be presented on their merits and interpreted as such.

creedp · 13-05-2013 01:32PM

sharper wrote: »

The CSO numbers are correct but they have to be interpreted in context, a sector in which employment changed radically is going to also have a big impact on the average wage purely from the change in numbers alone.

Apparently the position here is the CSO numbers are either valid for all contexts or valid for none, the numbers have to be presented on their merits and interpreted as such.

OK so is the CSO 11% figure for the decrease in the average wage OK to use in the context of comparing with movements in other sectors?

These old CSO figures are getting to be more trouble than they are worth as now apparently they can only be useed when somebody else declares it is appropriate to use them in a certain context.

sharper · 13-05-2013 01:38PM

creedp wrote: »

These old CSO figures are getting to be more that they are worth as now apparently they can only be useed when somebody else declares it is appropriate to use them in a certain context.

It's fairly simple, if you use figures in an argument you justify their use. The complexity of tracking an entire economy of millions of people is enormous, there are no silver bullets and no definitive answers.

There is more then enough data out there that people can cherry pick the bits they like to justify almost any position. If you're going to dismiss data you have to give your reasons, if you're going to use data you have to give your reasons. The strength of your argument rests on the strength of your reasoning.

That's how you discuss economic matters, not "Well pick whether CSO is good for all cases or bad for all cases".

creedp · 13-05-2013 01:42PM

sharper wrote: »

It's fairly simple, if you use figures in an argument you justify their use. The complexity of tracking an entire economy of millions of people is enormous, there are no silver bullets and no definitive answers.

There is more then enough data out there that people can cherry pick the bits they like to justify almost any position. If you're going to dismiss data you have to give your reasons, if you're going to use data you have to give your reasons. The strength of your argument rests on the strength of your reasoning.

That's how you discuss economic matters, not "Well pick whether CSO is good for all cases or bad for all cases".

OK so is it representative or not!

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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