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Bus Eireann strike - services have resumed (Read first post)

12467…24

Comments

  • #92
    Patser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭Patser


    schemingbohemia wrote: »
    Patser, how many of those clerical officers are working more than 36 hours anyway to get flexi leave? Does that apply in Bus Éireann? It's an extra 36 minutes a day, personally I wouldn't risk my job for that.

    I don't know for sure but I don't think it's that common. The clerical do do a fair few different roles, so the Admin staff seem the work a Mon-Fri roster but the lads in the cash office and the ticket offices in the stations work saturdays and sundays too and probably have a roster system. Haven't really ever heard of anyone mention flexi time but I'd only really chat to some of them in the cash office. Very rare I'd be up in the admin section.


  • #93
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    schemingbohemia wrote: »
    The Unions agreed to refer the matter to the LRC, therefore in my view they should accept the outcome of those discussions. The LRC, it seems to me, have always issued balanced decisions heretofore and seem to have done so again.

    That is why the Labour Court tends not to work properly these days, generally something works like this when it comes to an industrial dispute.

    Employer and staff have a dispute
    Staff don't agree with employers requests
    A long drawn out argument between both parties develop.
    Staff organise a union ballot
    A strike is threatned
    Union want employer to attend labour court
    Employer stands off for a few days and eventually agrees to attend.
    Labour court issues recommendation

    Scenario A
    Labour court rules in employers favour
    Staff refuse to comply as they say it's unfair
    Drawn out argument starts again
    Staff organise a union ballot
    A strike is threatned

    Scenario B
    Labour court rules in staff favour
    Staff urge employer to comply as labour court rubber stamped their position
    Union leaders appear in media saying what a disgrace it is that the employer ignore the labour court ruling

    The problem is that the Labour court loses it's value when one side says it's binding if it rules in their favour, but if it rules against them it should not count. It makes the whole court a waste of time and effort.


  • #94
    Patser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭Patser


    @Devnull:

    When you talk individually about each allowance being cut and wether they're justifyable or not individually, you have to remember that all these allowances have been part of drivers' terms and conditions for a long time now, along with overtime which is still a large part of our pay package despite it's reductions over time. These proposals will take large nibbles from all these parts of a driver's pay - and again it is drivers mostly that get these allowances, we're the ones that start earliest and latest, we're the ones who work Sundays and we're the ones that do most overtime (again honourable mention to the Mechanics!). So these proposed cuts impact mostly on the Drivers' take home pay, following on from us also making most of the previous 'efficiencies'. So death by a thousand cuts or straw that broke the camels back, choose your cliche, that's why drivers are feeling put upon.

    But remember all BE Unions had agreed on strike earlier in the year, this would be the 1st time in BE history that all sections woulf have gone out and still could. So it's not just the drivers, or even the NBRU, that are unhappy with the proposals.


  • #95
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    Patser wrote: »
    When you talk individually about each allowance being cut and wether they're justifyable or not individually, you have to remember that all these allowances have been part of drivers' terms and conditions for a long time now, along with overtime which is still a large part of our pay package despite it's reductions over time. These proposals will take large nibbles from all these parts of a driver's pay - and again it is drivers mostly that get these allowances, we're the ones that start earliest and latest, we're the ones who work Sundays and we're the ones that do most overtime (again honourable mention to the Mechanics!). So these proposed cuts impact mostly on the Drivers' take home pay, following on from us also making most of the previous 'efficiencies'.

    I understand that these terms and conditions have been there for quite some time but the fact is that those kinds of terms and conditions are simply not sustainable for the company that the staff work for and the company can no longer afford to pay such allowances. The company is losing money and this has to be addressed. There is no way around that and the current pay system is not sustainable, you cannot go on paying staff overtime on a regular basis, the company I work for doesn't do it because it would cripple the company.

    Nobody wants to take a pay cut but at the end of the day the company is losing money so something has to give and with staff being the biggest cost in any business then staff are always going to have to make a contribution and I'm sorry but people need to wake up and see that as if the company does not turn itself around soon the cuts that are being refused now are going to be nothing to what is going to happen in the future if the company does even survive.

    As an old boss of mine once said, if you are giving out overtime on a regular basis all year round nearly every week of the year to the same people, that is the sign of a business that is inefficient and that is badly managing it's resources because overtime is always more costly to a business than scheduled labour and that will directly contribute to it's financial performance. It's just basic economics and business sense.

    In one job I worked in there was a team of three of us yet we were snowed under with work. We were offered 1.5x pay for overtime to stay on but in the end the company hired someone else. They got the same combined hours of working between the team but paid less for it and the whole operation became much more efficient as we were all working together at the same times. We could have just kept loading existing staff with overtime but that is a terribly inefficient way to run a company and a very costly one too and something a company who is losing money can't afford to do.


  • #96
    Patser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭Patser


    I hear what you're saying and again I say we've shown that we have taken cuts and we are flexible. In terms of these proposals though they are too heavily weighted on certain groups of workers, while higher paid groups provide less.

    The management, Gilmore and Varadkar have all said it is critical to cut money but
    seem to feel only these proposals can achieve them. If it is so critical why have the management not put forward other options over the last few months. The obvious obvious one being a cut in the 'Earns more than the Taoiseach' CEO's wages. At least for the optics of things. Instead it has been this or the sack.


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  • #97
    Konvict
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 ✭Konvict


    As of right now, this only affects Bus Eireann, but could this spread to other CIE workers (i.e. Dublin Bus), anyone any idea whether this may occur on Sunday also, or if this is likely to occur at a later date?


  • #98
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,573 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Konvict wrote: »
    As of right now, this only affects Bus Eireann, but could this spread to other CIE workers (i.e. Dublin Bus)
    no, this is a BE issue only
    Konvict wrote: »
    anyone any idea whether this may occur on Sunday also, or if this is likely to occur at a later date?
    i can't see it happening at all but be prepared just in case

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #99
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,723 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #100
    Konvict
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 41 ✭Konvict


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    What does IE stand for? and thats a good point about the pickets. I'm supposed to be meeting up with a friend on Sun, she's coming from Rush and we're meeting in town, can you foresee any difficulties?


  • #101
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,723 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


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  • #102
    end of the road
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 29,573 ✭✭✭✭end of the road


    Konvict wrote: »
    I'm supposed to be meeting up with a friend on Sun, she's coming from Rush and we're meeting in town, can you foresee any difficulties?
    the problem is its hard to know, you could be effected, then again you could be fine, same for your friend

    I'm very highly educated. I know words, i have the best words, nobody has better words then me.



  • #103
    kingshankly
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,042 ✭✭✭kingshankly


    Konvict wrote: »
    What does IE stand for? and thats a good point about the pickets. I'm supposed to be meeting up with a friend on Sun, she's coming from Rush and we're meeting in town, can you foresee any difficulties?

    Train from rush and lusk


  • #104
    n97 mini
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,991 ✭✭✭n97 mini


    Patser wrote: »
    I hear what you're saying and again I say we've shown that we have taken cuts and we are flexible. In terms of these proposals though they are too heavily weighted on certain groups of workers, while higher paid groups provide less.
    The BE chap that was on the radio during the week seemed to hint that the next round of cuts at BE will be aimed at those.


  • #105
    gbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 522 ✭✭✭gbob


    If BE were to take all the empty buses off the road and give voluntary severence to those that wanted it then the company would make the required savings. Or simply putting a charge of one euro per pass per week would increase revenue by up to 56 million per year. But, our minister for transport has given BE an order to cut 5 million from payroll costs because he claims drivers in other eu countries are earning less, and while that may be true, we all know how comparatively expensive it is to live in Ireland these days.


  • #106
    Trampas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,499 ✭✭✭Trampas


    gbob wrote: »
    Or simply putting a charge of one euro per pass per week would increase revenue by up to 56 million per year.

    Fares have gone up recently anyway so you don't know if the extra euro a week will not drive people off the bus and thus cost the company more.

    Up taxes/prices seems to be the answer to all questions when asked to unions for semi-state/public sector instead of reducing costs.

    To many people have budgeted on total wage instead of basic wage.

    Are bus drivers not allowed bring a packed lunch with them on the bus that they require a meal allowance?


  • #107
    Fred Swanson
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,723 ✭✭✭✭Fred Swanson


    This post has been deleted.


  • #108
    hfallada
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,179 ✭✭✭hfallada


    If they spread it to Dublin bus it will be very unpopular with tourist season coming up. Like the management in those companies is horrific like why wasn't the bus depots in the city centre sold during the boom and used to pay off for pension deficits and Luas etc.


  • #109
    ihavethepower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34 ✭ihavethepower


    What about this idea, why don't the drivers do their normal shifts but not take any money in? This will mean services will run as normal, joe public will support the drivers plight and management will have to come up with a better plan. Means more footfall for buses too.


  • #110
    Trampas
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,499 ✭✭✭Trampas


    gbob wrote: »
    I realise fares are way overpriced as they are but what I'm suggesting is a one euro flat charge on free travel passes. Would solve a lot of problems for BE.

    Sorry I thought you meant everyone instead of the free travel pass.

    Free travel pass is another can of worms and I think should be only for OAP and restricted access people and not for social welfare

    How many days do BE drivers work as I do see the same driver driving me to working and dropping me home in the evening.

    Is it a case they do their hours in a 3/4 day week?


  • #111
    Patser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭Patser


    ihavethepower wrote: »
    What about this idea, why don't the drivers do their normal shifts but not take any money in? This will mean services will run as normal, joe public will support the drivers plight and management will have to come up with a better plan. Means more footfall for buses too.

    It was done before during a Dublin Bus strike but afterwards the company sued the Union involved saying it was an illegal industrial action and the drivers had to repay the losses through stopped wages

    http://www.boards.ie/vbulletin/showpost.php?p=1021204&postcount=23
    Trampas wrote: »
    How many days do BE drivers work as I do see the same driver driving me to working and dropping me home in the evening.

    Is it a case they do their hours in a 3/4 day week?

    We're on a 5 day roster although some drivers volunteer to work a 6th day if it doesn't break EU driving hours and rest day rules. The computer roster system in the depots automatically red flags rosters that go over the driving hour limits. A lot of our rostered days are 12 hours long - with a maximum unpaid break of 2hrs 45 minutes in the middle. So yep, quite often I do be driving people into work and then home after their finished before heading back to depot to pay up and sign off.


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  • #112
    Del2005
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,085 ✭✭✭✭Del2005


    Patser wrote: »
    When you talk individually about each allowance being cut and wether they're justifyable or not individually, you have to remember that all these allowances have been part of drivers' terms and conditions for a long time now, along with overtime which is still a large part of our pay package despite it's reductions over time. These proposals will take large nibbles from all these parts of a driver's pay - and again it is drivers mostly that get these allowances, we're the ones that start earliest and latest, we're the ones who work Sundays and we're the ones that do most overtime (again honourable mention to the Mechanics!). So these proposed cuts impact mostly on the Drivers' take home pay, following on from us also making most of the previous 'efficiencies'. So death by a thousand cuts or straw that broke the camels back, choose your cliche, that's why drivers are feeling put upon.

    How are drivers doing so much overtime when their driving hours are so heavily regulated? If a driver can do overtime then they have driving hours left, if they have hours left they aren't being utilised correctly to begin with.

    The reason why the cuts are affecting the drivers, and mechanics, most is because it'll have the biggest impact on money going out. The companies loosing a load of money so needs to go after the quickest way to save the most money. In the next round, and there will be a next round, they'll have to go after the 9-5er's.
    ihavethepower wrote: »
    What about this idea, why don't the drivers do their normal shifts but not take any money in? This will mean services will run as normal, joe public will support the drivers plight and management will have to come up with a better plan. Means more footfall for buses too.

    The inspectors would have a field day :D


  • #113
    Patser
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,385 ✭✭✭Patser


    Del2005 wrote: »
    How are drivers doing so much overtime when their driving hours are so heavily regulated? If a driver can do overtime then they have driving hours left, if they have hours left they aren't being utilised correctly to begin with.

    EU tacho regulations allow for 90 hours driving over a 2 week period - so drivers can legally drive for 45 hours a week, which is above the basic paid 39 hours.

    And I said coincidentally just above, it's all controlled by a rostering system as well as these days there being a much more limited overtime system.


  • #114
    ihavethepower
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 34 ✭ihavethepower


    It seems to me to be a management problem, bring in interim administration like they did with quinn insurance


  • #115
    okiss
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 701 ✭✭✭okiss


    I know that the staff in BE don't want to work more hours or take pay cuts but the reality is the company can't afford to pay the wages they have been paying.
    Also BE has had problems for a number of years which should have been looked at and dealt with before now. The reason this is now happening is the country is broke. I would agree that the people at the top of BE should be taking a decent wage cuts along with cuts to the allowances they have.

    For years BE where charging very high fares but when the private bus companies came along they reduced the prices. Also once they saw a private company running a new service they started to compete with them rather than looking to the future to see where new/better services could be given to the public.

    The people working for BE and the unions need to know that unless they take pay cuts ect they may not have a job in the future.
    The strike will make the public use other services and long term BE could lose people who make regular journeys ie students and workers going home at the weekend. Also the longer a strike goes on the more people will use other bus services.


  • #116
    Passenger
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,156 ✭✭✭Passenger


    The 126N Nightrider service on Saturday night runs at 12.30am and 3.30am so technically it's on Sunday morning. What are the chances of the service being affected by the strike action?


  • #117
    Jamie2k9
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,886 ✭✭✭✭Jamie2k9


    So either side won't engage and an illegal strike taking place on Sunday, unions are great in breach of the Industrial Relations Act as 7 days notice after the vote hasn't being given.

    Employees have great representation from a union who supports an illegal strike and doesn't know the Industrial Relations Act but still claim its a legal strike.


  • #118
    gbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 522 ✭✭✭gbob


    Fred Swanson wrote: »
    This post has been deleted.

    Granted, but if the general consensus is that we've all got to share the pain of this and previous governments mismanagement, then where do we draw the line?

    ihavethepower wrote: »
    What about this idea, why don't the drivers do their normal shifts but not take any money in? This will mean services will run as normal, joe public will support the drivers plight and management will have to come up with a better plan. Means more footfall for buses too.

    That has been tried unsuccessfully in the past, but if it worked we would prefer it.

    Jamie2k9 wrote: »
    So either side won't engage and an illegal strike taking place on Sunday, unions are great in breach of the Industrial Relations Act as 7 days notice after the vote hasn't being given.

    Employees have great representation from a union who supports an illegal strike and doesn't know the Industrial Relations Act but still claim its a legal strike.

    Oh believe me the unions know the act of which you speak. They also know it is illegal for any employer to unilaterally change the terms and conditions of an employees contract without agreement. Remember if this company gets away with that then there'll be nothing stopping your company doing the very same thing.


  • #119
    gbob
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 522 ✭✭✭gbob


    Passenger wrote: »
    The 126N Nightrider service on Saturday night runs at 12.30am and 3.30am so technically it's on Sunday morning. What are the chances of the service being affected by the strike action?

    It's highly likely that stoppages will take place from midnight Saturday, however if those services are the drivers return journeys to his home depot they may operate. I know it may not be practical but keep an eye on BE's site for details.


  • #120
    doubletrouble?
    Closed Accounts Posts: 310 ✭✭doubletrouble?


    i know alot of people are coming on basically saying the drivers should take the cuts, it's happening across all sectors etc.
    people have taken cuts, but theres only so much cuts people can take.
    the cost of living is not going down ,you could almost say it's going up. what is going down is wages. now if you look across the board the whole country is fed up and are at last starting to take a stand by saying enough is enough.
    the unions/ staff in B.E. are no different to the people that rejected croke park ii. they have all sent the same clear message out.
    no more cuts to wages.
    maybe this strike is the wake up call that the whole nation needs to stand up to our thatcherite government. maybe what this country needs is an all out strike, if they bring in croke park ii without agreement this B.E. strike will be just a walk in the park/ the tip of the iceberg compared to whats coming.
    everything that this government said they wouldn't do they've done. everything they said they'll do they haven't done.
    you have a party thats supposed to represent the working class and all they are in reality are enda's puppets. they same party are telling the staff to takes the cuts while they promised they wouldn't bail out the banks.

    as a nation we cannot take anymore hits/cuts. somewhere ,sometime the people of ireland will have to take a united stand, and do it before it's too late.
    the greeks once posted a banner "we're not the irish" and we all knew what that meant when we saw it, now lets prove them wrong. whether it's B.E., the nurses ,teachers any public/private sector workers.
    at last we have a group of people who are willing to stand up and fight.
    berate these staff all you want but remember anyone one of you could be next.


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  • #121
    devnull
    Moderators, Motoring & Transport Moderators, Paid Member Posts: 11,911 Mod ✭✭✭✭devnull


    doubletrouble? wrote: »
    the cost of living is not going down ,you could almost say it's going up. what is going down is wages. now if you look across the board the whole country is fed up and are at last starting to take a stand by saying enough is enough.

    You should blame the people who got us into this mess in the first place. Fianna Fail. Whichever government came in after them was going to have to balance the books, unfortunately their legacy made tough decisions all the more necessary.

    In a recession wages go down and terms go down, that is the case in pretty much any major recession, just as in a boom wages will go up. I didn't see anyone turning down wage hikes in the Celtic tiger era, claiming if the economy is booming they should get a rise, by that logic when it isn't they should get a cut.
    the unions/ staff in B.E. are no different to the people that rejected croke park ii. they have all sent the same clear message out.
    no more cuts to wages.

    Don't moan if you don't have a job at the end of it. The country cannot afford to continue to bail you out, it is not sustainable to get some of the perks you guys get in the current environment and remember you are taxpayer funded and it alienates people that their hard earned money is funding peoples clauses that they lost a long time ago. It is the job of the public sector to service the public as economically as possible.

    Seeing as the conditions are so bad that they are unacceptable, if staff don't like them then why don't they go and seek a job elsewhere in the same role. Oh I forgot, because the conditions even after the cuts are still better than elsewhere
    maybe this strike is the wake up call that the whole nation needs to stand up to our thatcherite government. maybe what this country needs is an all out strike, if they bring in croke park ii without agreement this B.E. strike will be just a walk in the park/ the tip of the iceberg compared to whats coming.

    As someone who has family who lived in the UK during the Thatcherite years to call this anything like them is just crazy,
    as a nation we cannot take anymore hits/cuts. somewhere ,sometime the people of ireland will have to take a united stand, and do it before it's too late.the greeks once posted a banner "we're not the irish" and we all knew what that meant when we saw it, now lets prove them wrong. whether it's B.E., the nurses ,teachers any public/private sector workers.

    And Greece are in a much bigger crisis than we are and there is no sign of it getting any better, in fact the crisis there is far worse than in Ireland since people are just resisting anything there are riots on the street. Do you see things getting any better in Greece because people are taking a stand? They're not because people are burying their heads in the sand thinking that they can do nothing and everything will be fine.

    If a country or a company is spending more money than it is bringing in that needs to addressed. The whole reason the country is in the deep mire it is in now is because that was not addressed earlier because FF were too busy trying to 'solve' the issue but just ended up deepening it because they were more interested in their own pride and the party rather than looking after the country.


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