Why we can't have a rational conversation about abortion

Cody Pomeray · 07-05-2013 02:44PM

koth wrote: »

If you're going to use a "weighting" system for whose opinion matters more you're going to have to live with whatever pregnant women/mothers say.

Obviously, yes. I'm pro choice. I think the decision making lies with the mother in the first instance.

I am saying I would characterise it as a "mother's issue" and thereafter as a "mother's and fathers' issue"

Some people may be confusing the term mother and woman.

Delirium · 07-05-2013 02:52PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Obviously, yes. I'm pro choice. I think the decision making lies with the mother in the first instance.

I am saying I would characterise it as a "mother's issue" and thereafter as a "mother's and fathers' issue"

Some people may be confusing the term mother and woman.

Pregnant woman isn't the same as mother. Mother generally means that child has been born.

The topic has more impact on women as they're the ones that will carry the child to term. They're the ones who could possibily die if any complications arise. That's not to dismiss any effects of the pregnancy on the husband/boyfriend.

jaja321 · 07-05-2013 02:53PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Obviously, yes. I'm pro choice. I think the decision making lies with the mother in the first instance.

I am saying I would characterise it as a "mother's issue" and thereafter as a "mother's and fathers' issue"

Some people may be confusing the term mother and woman.

You do know that a mother is a woman who has actually given birth, right?

Czarcasm · 07-05-2013 02:59PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Same with plenty of women. Indeed, for some women, it is a statistical impossibility.

It is just wrong to frame this as a women's issue, which I think unfairly sidelines fathers, whilst including women who will never get pregnant.

When you have a father dealing with a death in his family due to a fatal foetal abnormality, try a rake of menopausal old women telling him this is a 'women's issue'.

Cody same menopausal old women, or even infertile women, will STILL stand a better chance of becoming pregnant than a man.

Now the reason we shouldn't get into emotive specifics or religious arguments is because you're drawn off into a whole array of one off "what if, and if, or this, or that, but but but" where you'd soon be arguing fathers rights for male rapists or even circumstances where a dead man's sperm should be allowed to be used by a woman to impregnate herself, or, the reverse of that- a man using his dead wife's frozen eggs to have a child using a willing surrogate.

You're talking a whole different field of ethics that isn't relevant under what society would consider ordinary circumstances and it's a discussion that distracts from the fact that it's only women will ever have to make the decision to have an abortion, not men.

Cody Pomeray · 07-05-2013 03:06PM

jaja321 wrote: »

You do know that a mother is a woman who has actually given birth, right?

Oh. No. No I did not know that.
Debate cancelled everybody. seriously.

Czarcasm wrote: »

Cody same menopausal old women, or even infertile women, will STILL stand a better chance of becoming pregnant than a man.

Some will yes.

Nevertheless, it is more probable that the partners of pregnant women, usually male, will be forced to live with the adverse consequences of inadequate abortion provisions than infertile or elderly women.

Abortion legislation effects mothers and yes, it effects those who may become mothers. However, this rules out a massive subsection of women. Or at least leaves them way down the line behind fathers and partners.

That is why I disagree with characterising this as a women's issue.

Iwasfrozen · 07-05-2013 03:08PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Oh. No. No I did not know that.
Debate cancelled everybody. seriously.

Wait... So you mean... Men can't give birth?

jaja321 · 07-05-2013 03:10PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Oh. No. No I did not know that.
Debate cancelled everybody. seriously.

.

Great. I'm glad we cleared that up.

Obliq · 07-05-2013 03:30PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

That is why I disagree with characterising this as a women's issue.

Nobody has characterised this as a women's issue except yourself Cody. Everyone else (including me at the start of our derailing slanging match) has said it has more impact on women. I explained it as more emotional impact, still - it is not just a woman's issue, and nobody has said it is.

If you remember, it was you who made a point of me qualifying a comment with "as a woman". I have no such difficulty with anyone saying "as a man". Let's be kind to each other eh?! Sorry for the put downs :-)

the culture of deference · 08-05-2013 02:00PM

TAOISEACH Enda Kenny has ruled out allowing abortion for women who have been raped or where the unborn child has a fatal foetal abnormality.

Ruling out a new referendum on the issue, Mr Kenny said the people had already voted in previous referendums and had provided provision for the right to travel for abortions.

He said terminations would only be allowed where there was a real or substantial threat to the woman's life.

It comes amid increased tensions over the witnesses to appear before the Oireachtas Health Committee hearings, which start at the end of next week. A submission to include evidence from women who have had experience of abortion has already been turned down.

Yesterday Mr Kenny was questioned in the Dail by Independent Waterford TD John Halligan, who said it was "warped justice" that women who were raped could be jailed for 14 years for having an abortion under the new legislation.

Mr Halligan called for a referendum on this and the fatal-foetal abnormality issue, but Mr Kenny ruled it out.

The Taoiseach said the Government's bill was about dealing with a Supreme Court decision in the X Case and said there are many opinions in the Dail on the issue.

"The people in the country voted on this in the past and they made their intentions very clear in that the right to travel was given specifically to women," Mr Kenny said.

Mr Halligan said the Taoiseach's answers were from "20 or 30 years ago" and asked him what if it was "your daughter or your mother" who had been raped but could not get an abortion.

"You might be aware of this, 17 women who became pregnant after being raped had abortions last year," Mr Halligan said.

Legislation

Mr Kenny also said the abortion legislation could be changed when the Oireachtas Health Committee completed its hearings on the heads of the bill.

Dravokivich · 08-05-2013 02:04PM

Got a link to that? I'd be interested in seeing anything stating a rape victim could be charged and put away for longer than a rapist.

jam_mac_jam · 08-05-2013 02:05PM

Fair play to John Halligan anyway, not really suprising from FG though is it. I don't actually agree with it just for rape anyway, fatal foetal abnormality I can understand as its going to die anyway. I don't see what difference it is whether you are raped or not, what difference how it was concieved. I think you are opening a huge can of worms there.

wildlifeboy · 08-05-2013 02:07PM

thats his blinkered castlebar catholic upbringing right there! Abortion should be allowed for everyone regardless of the scenario!

Carlos Orange · 08-05-2013 02:09PM

wildlifeboy wrote: »

thats his blinkered castlebar catholic upbringing right there! Abortion should be allowed for everyone regardless of the scenario!

That is pretty far out there. I don't think I have seen someone suggest fathers should be able to request abortions before.

maximoose · 08-05-2013 02:09PM

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

I don't see what difference it is whether you are raped or not, what difference how it was concieved. I think you are opening a huge can of worms there.

Just like the huge can of worms your silly opinion will have just opened on this thread.

kfk · 08-05-2013 02:10PM

wildlifeboy wrote: »

thats his blinkered castlebar catholic upbringing right there! Abortion should be allowed for everyone regardless of the scenario!

Even irresponsible adult women that become pregnant?

irishgirl19 · 08-05-2013 02:12PM

Thats a disgrace if true. I've read stories about women who were told their babys wouldn't survive but they were made to carry full term before they would be induced, being made to have a stillbirth rather than a termination at an earlier stage.

irishgirl19 · 08-05-2013 02:14PM

and why are men getting a say in what women do with their bodies.

Dravokivich · 08-05-2013 02:15PM

irishgirl19 wrote: »

and why are men getting a say in what women do with their bodies.

Well, if a woman is going to do anything to my body, i'd sure as hell like a say in it.

Death and Taxes · 08-05-2013 02:15PM

Termination on request should be available up to a specified point in pregnancy for any woman who wishes to avail of the service, end of.

jam_mac_jam · 08-05-2013 02:16PM

maximoose wrote: »

Just like the huge can of worms your silly opinion will have just opened on this thread.

Yeah great arguement there. Call an opinion silly.

What difference does it make how the child was conceived? Very catholic. If a woman wants an abortion she should be able to have one. This is meant to be a modern European country.

PunkFreud · 08-05-2013 02:16PM

kfk wrote: »

Even irresponsible adult women that become pregnant?

The woman makes one mistake, so she should live with it for the rest of her life. If a man makes a similar "mistake", he doesn't bear the consequences.

Seems fair :rolleyes:

jaja321 · 08-05-2013 02:16PM

The people have had their say? As a 34 year old woman I haven't had the opportunity to have my say.

wildlifeboy · 08-05-2013 02:16PM

have another referendum, the results may surprise you enda!

syklops · 08-05-2013 02:19PM

irishgirl19 wrote: »

and why are men getting a say in what women do with their bodies.

To be fair, every time I see a spokesperson for the Pro-life campaign its that same woman(I cant remember her name).

edit: Clare Daly.

tritium · 08-05-2013 02:19PM

wildlifeboy wrote: »

thats his blinkered castlebar catholic upbringing right there! Abortion should be allowed for everyone regardless of the scenario!

So let me get this straight. Enda is finally showing the balls to legislate for what the country voted on 21years ago, something successive governments haven't had the guts to do.

Consttutionally we know he can't add any extra bits because we the people on numerous occasions up to 21 years ago said he couldn't

Previous referenda have torn the country apart to leave us in a broadly static scenario, much to the chagrin of both extremes on this issue (because strangely the majority of folks sit somewhere in the grey area rather than black or White on this issue). Given that Enda has decided not to tear the country apart again for likely minimal change.

And in spite of this he cops a pile of crap from folks who think they know better.

He must wonder why he bothers

hatrickpatrick · 08-05-2013 02:20PM

To be honest I give it about maybe another 20 years before enough of the population is ok with abortion on demand up I a certain time limit that it stops being an explosive political issue anymore.

But until then, in terms of pregnancy from rape, is it not a reasonable alternative for victims to take the morning after pill as a precaution? Not saying it should be, but in the short term until the political demographic changes, it's an easy alternative no?

kfk · 08-05-2013 02:20PM

jam_mac_jam wrote: »

Yeah great arguement there. Call an opinion silly.

What difference does it make how the child was conceived? Very catholic. If a woman wants an abortion she should be able to have one. This is meant to be a modern European country.

Is it wrong to be a catholic now?

R P McMurphy · 08-05-2013 02:21PM

wildlifeboy wrote: »

have another referendum, the results may surprise you enda!

Nope there was a referendum and the decision is final. Never in the history of the state was there a referendum and then another on the same issue if the decision was not the desired outcome .... oh no

jam_mac_jam · 08-05-2013 02:22PM

kfk wrote: »

Is it wrong to be a catholic now?

Did I say that?

TommyKnocker · 08-05-2013 02:22PM

wildlifeboy wrote: »

have another referendum, the results may surprise you enda!

There is no way Enda will hold another referendum, as if the prople voted for open abortion, he would not want to be remembered as the person who brought it into Ireland.

Why we can't have a rational conversation about abortion

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