Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

vinylbomb · 03-05-2013 05:37PM

donalg1 wrote: »

Well transfer payments would be SW not PS pay, are you telling me SW shouldnt be cut? Especially considering it has remained largely untouched for those five years.

2 seconds ago it was the banks, now its the fault of the dole queue.
Scattergun approach.

And.......yet again you are failing to grasp the point.

Welfare spending has GONE DOWN per person since 2008.
But there are twice as many people on direct welfare payments, and possibly more receiving benefits of some sort.

vinylbomb · 03-05-2013 05:41PM

And also, just to reiterate.

I'm in favour of cuts to welfare.
And a renegotiation of contracts in PS to include performance management and extended working hours.

Doing both at the same time.

donalg1 · 03-05-2013 07:29PM

vinylbomb wrote: »

2 seconds ago it was the banks, now its the fault of the dole queue.
Scattergun approach.

And.......yet again you are failing to grasp the point.

Welfare spending has GONE DOWN per person since 2008.
But there are twice as many people on direct welfare payments, and possibly more receiving benefits of some sort.

No I never said it was the banks fault only, it was the banks fault as well as the private sectors fault or at least the construction industry mainly as well as other areas of the private sector that we are in the mess we are. So no scattergun approach at all as I am fully aware of which sector ruined this country and it wasn't the public.

sean200 · 03-05-2013 07:35PM

US firms paid an average tax rate of 8% profits in Ireland and there was me thinking that they were in ireland for the so called bright educated workforce in the private sector
http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0503/390280-us-corporations-tax/

donalg1 · 03-05-2013 07:39PM

sean200 wrote: »

US firms paid an average tax rate of 8% profits in Ireland and there was me thinking that they were in ireland for the so called bright educated workforce in the private sector
http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0503/390280-us-corporations-tax/

Definitely not here for our workforce anyway, if they get a better deal elsewhere they'll be gone.

vinylbomb · 03-05-2013 09:12PM

donalg1 wrote: »

at least the construction industry mainly as well as other areas of the private sector

So now its the builders??

You are moving around blame fairly quick there. Sounds scattergun to me.

We're getting far off topic here.

I'm saying welfare cuts should happen, in tandem with a renegotiation of contracts in PS. NOT a wage cut, just a renegotiation of contract to bring them closer to norms in other PS and also the private sector ie working hours and performance management.

Whats your arguement against performance management and working 37.5 or 39 hours?

vinylbomb · 03-05-2013 09:20PM

sean200 wrote: »

US firms paid an average tax rate of 8% profits in Ireland and there was me thinking that they were in ireland for the so called bright educated workforce in the private sector
http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0503/390280-us-corporations-tax/

So from the thrust of your point I guess you think they were here to hand as much money to the state as possible?

US companies employ 110,000 people directly in this country. Are you advocating bringing in a regime that will force them to reconsider their position here?

Lets be honest. We all know they are here for tax reasons, sale to EU markets, ease of visa applications for talented staff from outside the EU and climate in the case of the data centers.
Plenty of things.

This whole border-line Commie/Red Top outrage at their tax bill and saying "but they're only here for the talent" is fatuous.

creedp · 03-05-2013 11:21PM

vinylbomb wrote: »

I'm saying welfare cuts should happen, in tandem with a renegotiation of contracts in PS. NOT a wage cut, just a renegotiation of contract to bring them closer to norms in other PS and also the private sector ie working hours and performance management.

Whats your arguement against performance management and working 37.5 or 39 hours?

Usual rhetoric concerning the uber performance oriented private sector. I apologise up front for lowering the tone to the PS bashing level but I'm a little tired of this rhetoric particularly when any employer I know constantly complains about the difficulty in recruiting decent Irish workers these days. One guy I know who does subcontracting work for one of the big utility company's has scaled down his operations because of this problem. He said he overcame this problem for a while by recruiting non-national workers but now he said they have become native also. So whilst there are problems in the PS, that no one will deny, anyone who goes around believing that the private sector en masse is a paragon of efficiency and effectiveness need to turn off the laptop and get outside for a while.

vinylbomb · 03-05-2013 11:51PM

creedp wrote: »

One guy I know who does subcontracting work for one of the big utility company's has scaled down his operations because of this problem. He said he overcame this problem for a while by recruiting non-national workers but now he said they have become native also.

QED.

He didnt like his employees so he moved them on.

What would he do if he couldnt? Or didnt have some mechanism to grade their performance?

I'm not saying the private sector is fantastic, but the freedom is there for employer and employee to choose how they want their relationship to be, ie productive, not productive or non-existent.

donalg1 · 04-05-2013 08:03AM

vinylbomb wrote: »

So now its the builders??

You are moving around blame fairly quick there. Sounds scattergun to me.

We're getting far off topic here.

I'm saying welfare cuts should happen, in tandem with a renegotiation of contracts in PS. NOT a wage cut, just a renegotiation of contract to bring them closer to norms in other PS and also the private sector ie working hours and performance management.

Whats your arguement against performance management and working 37.5 or 39 hours?

Seriously I said its the private sector and you inferred this as the banks so I had to elaborate that it is made up of mire than the banks, which you inferred to mean just the builders, I tried simplifying it for you but this didn't work, I can't list every aspect of the private sector.

Yes its off topic and yes I agree the PS needs reforming and it is starting to he reformed, my point this whole time is that because the PS is being reformed the SW system also needs to be as this costs twice as much in terms of Gov Expenditure and gives nothing back.

In short and simple terms they need reforming, one is doing it and has made massive savings, one isn't and hasn't made savings of any real worth, which is a ridiculous situation considering the first is the one being attacked all day every day from all angles, while the biggest drain on gov expenditure is never discussed.

MMAGirl · 04-05-2013 10:47AM

My company works a 35 hour week as did my last. Perks given to attract good people. Nothing unusual about it but when I tell some people they straight away assume I am getting something I am not entitled to. I always invite them to apply fort job if they want they same hours.

Oh and salary reviews for everyone this week. Minimum 4% plus whatever extra each individual can negotiate.
I'd hate to work in the ps where everyone else thinks they know your job and that they can decide what your pay and conditions should be.

creedp · 05-05-2013 12:17AM

MMAGirl wrote: »

My company works a 35 hour week as did my last. Perks given to attract good people. Nothing unusual about it but when I tell some people they straight away assume I am getting something I am not entitled to. I always invite them to apply fort job if they want they same hours.

Oh and salary reviews for everyone this week. Minimum 4% plus whatever extra each individual can negotiate.
I'd hate to work in the ps where everyone else thinks they know your job and that they can decide what your pay and conditions should be.

Ill continue with my anecdotal musings .. talking to a guy today who works for a security alarm company. He told me he was delighted with his job .. got a 6% increase earlier in the year and is due another before year end. He is provided with a van with everything paid for and has full use of if for domestic purposes. He receives a food and clothes allowance .. never has to put his hand in his pocket ...

He says he work hard but there are lads in same company who you would be better off not being paired up with as they were more of a hindrance that a help. He said that a few of these guys were constantly complaining that he needed to slow down a bit as he was showing them up. He said he didn't care as he just did his own thing. He was self employed but had to give up because although he could get work he couldn't get money from people so decided to become an employee and let someone else take the financial risks. His view was that the ex-selfemployed guys were more consciensious as they new the value of a well paid job while some of the longer term employees were lacking in motivation and just wanted to do the minimum to get by.

All sounds a bit familiar really ..

vinylbomb · 05-05-2013 01:50PM

creedp wrote: »

Ill continue with my anecdotal musings .. talking to a guy today who works for the public sector. He told me he was delighted with his job .. got a increment earlier in the year and is due another before year end.

He says he work hard but there are lads in same department who you would be better off not being paired up with as they were more of a hindrance that a help. He said that a few of these guys were constantly complaining that he needed to slow down a bit as he was showing them up. He said he didn't care as he just did his own thing.

Some of the longer term employees were lacking in motivation and just wanted to do the minimum to get by.

All sounds a bit familiar really ..

Change a few words here and there and see what happens?

This is irrelevant anyway. Is his employer broke and borrowing to give him a rise?

sharper · 05-05-2013 02:01PM

vinylbomb wrote: »

This is irrelevant anyway. Is his employer broke and borrowing to give him a rise?

I'm just amazed that all the people he knows are doing so well. Double digit annual increases, bonuses left and right.

A 6% increase with another to come in the same year is simply incredible.

To put that 6% in perspective

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts_q42012.pdf

In the four years to Q4 2012 average weekly earnings across individual sectors show changes ranging between -11.1% for the Construction
sector and +4.3% for the Information and communication sector

That single 6% annual increase beats the highest increase of the best performing sector seen over four years.

creedp · 07-05-2013 08:39AM

vinylbomb wrote: »

Change a few words here and there and see what happens?

This is irrelevant anyway. Is his employer broke and borrowing to give him a rise?

That was enjoyable wasn't it .. passed away a few minutes over a lazy bank holiday weekend!

creedp · 07-05-2013 08:42AM

sharper wrote: »

I'm just amazed that all the people he knows are doing so well. Double digit annual increases, bonuses left and right.

A 6% increase with another to come in the same year is simply incredible.

To put that 6% in perspective

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/releasespublications/documents/earnings/2012/earnlabcosts_q42012.pdf

That single 6% annual increase beats the highest increase of the best performing sector seen over four years.

Ah the the wonder of averages ..

sarumite · 07-05-2013 08:50AM

creedp wrote: »

All sounds a bit familiar really ..

A boards.ie poster having a conversation with 'a guy' who offers up an unusual amount of specific information on pay and conditions in his workplace which coincidentally provides extreme example of a particular situation which just happens to support said boards.ie poster viewpoint.

Sadly, yes, it does sound all too familiar.

squod · 07-05-2013 08:55AM

sean200 wrote: »

US firms paid an average tax rate of 8% profits in Ireland and there was me thinking that they were in ireland for the so called bright educated workforce in the private sector
http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0503/390280-us-corporations-tax/

Fairly shure it's less than that.

TAXES are for small people” is the growing trend in many countries, with the multinational corporations able to make use of a variety of legal loopholes to pay as little as 2% tax on multibillion-euro profits.

While there are no definite figures for how money is being lost to the exchequer, estimates suggest the shadow economy — those not paying tax they properly should — amounts to 20% of the EU’s GDP. Ireland is at the lower end of this scale, with the sixth smallest shadow economy last year, estimated at 12.8% of its GDP or roughly €14bn that is going untaxed.

http://www.irishexaminer.com/analysis/debt-and-taxes-214553.html

A trillion euro worth of tax evasion/avoidance across Europe. Ireland's effective corporation tax as low as less than 1% in some cases. Any of you public sector boyos here work in Revenue???

Matter will be raised in the G8 in Fermanagh.

creedp · 07-05-2013 08:56AM

sarumite wrote: »

A boards.ie poster having a conversation with 'a guy' who offers up an unusual amount of specific information on pay and conditions in his workplace which coincidentally provides extreme example of a particular situation which just happens to support said boards.ie poster viewpoint.

Sadly, yes, it does sound all too familiar.

That Boards.ie person is simply offerring up some facts which attempt to refute much of the generalised drivel he is bombarded with on a daily basis ...

sharper · 07-05-2013 10:00AM

creedp wrote: »

Ah the the wonder of averages ..

i.e. facts which actually represent the state of the economy rather than unverifiable anecdotes from anonymous internet posters.

creedp · 07-05-2013 10:36AM

sharper wrote: »

i.e. facts which actually represent the state of the economy rather than unverifiable anecdotes from anonymous internet posters.

I'm delighted that the CSO is now offered up as the source of undisputable facts reflecting the state of the economy. Its not that long (although probably over a hundred pages on this thread) that some posters were being castigated for "quoting" these same CSO stats .. of course the difference is those quotes didn't fit the profile.

donalg1 · 07-05-2013 10:42AM

sharper wrote: »

i.e. facts which actually represent the state of the economy rather than unverifiable anecdotes from anonymous internet posters.

Averages being absolutely useless when it comes to facts and figures you mean.

e.g. Company A has 5 employees, 1 earns €200,000 per year the other 4 each earn €25,000 per year, the average salary in Company A is €60,000.

So someone using averages for that company would be standing there saying "sure isnt it grand you earn €60,000 per year arent you very lucky to have such a well paid job", when in actual fact that employee earns €25,000.

So averages = a completely useless piece of information. Facts and actual figures being much better.

sharper · 07-05-2013 10:53AM

creedp wrote: »

I'm delighted that the CSO is now offered up as the source of undisputable facts reflecting the state of the economy. Its not that long (although probably over a hundred pages on this thread) that some posters were being castigated for "quoting" these same CSO stats .. of course the difference is those quotes didn't fit the profile.

Now you're flailing and erecting a strawman.

I placed your anecdote in the context of the wider economy, I did not say the CSO stats are indisputable or that the average is the correct conext for all arguments.

The factual state of affairs is that 6% alone is an incredible annual increase. 6% with more to come is beyond incredible.

sharper · 07-05-2013 10:57AM

donalg1 wrote: »

Averages being absolutely useless when it comes to facts and figures you mean.

That's a very silly thing to say. Averages are useful if they're used correctly and interpreted in context.

By their nature averages hide detail but the income tax system is itself a blunt instrument which cares little for detail. If you want to advocate increasing income taxes then you have to look at how private sector incomes are doing, on average.

If you want to argue "fairness" and "sharing the burden" then again you have to look at averages and not cherry picked anecdotes.

sarumite · 07-05-2013 10:59AM

creedp wrote: »

That Boards.ie person is simply offerring up some facts which attempt to refute much of the generalised drivel he is bombarded with on a daily basis ...

I can definitely say I know what you mean about generalised drivel.

donalg1 · 07-05-2013 11:07AM

sharper wrote: »

That's a very silly thing to say. Averages are useful if they're used correctly and interpreted in context.

By their nature averages hide detail but the income tax system is itself a blunt instrument which cares little for detail. If you want to advocate increasing income taxes then you have to look at how private sector incomes are doing, on average.

If you want to argue "fairness" and "sharing the burden" then again you have to look at averages and not cherry picked anecdotes.

Averages are only useful if you are dealing with small groups and have a disclaimer at the bottom of the figures which never happens round here, so averages on an internet forum are completely and utterly useless. Generally people use them to make a point but dont provide any context and can generally be shown to be pointless rather easily.

So no averages are not useful when compared to actual facts and figures, they are simply an output of the facts and figures tailored by the user to make a point. And that point would be far better made if they were to use the actual figures, however more often than not the averages suit their interests better.

For example in the Company A example I gave above which would you find more useful:

1. The average salary is €60,000

2. The CEO earns €200,000 and the other 4 staff earn €25,000

Point 1 could be useful if you are looking to cut the pay of all the staff, whereas Point 2 would be useful if the 4 staff are looking for a pay increase.

creedp · 07-05-2013 11:16AM

sarumite wrote: »

I can definitely say I know what you mean about generalised drivel.

Good I thought I was on my own there!

creedp · 07-05-2013 11:26AM

sharper wrote: »

Now you're flailing and erecting a strawman.

I placed your anecdote in the context of the wider economy, I did not say the CSO stats are indisputable or that the average is the correct conext for all arguments.

The factual state of affairs is that 6% alone is an incredible annual increase. 6% with more to come is beyond incredible.

So can I quote you as saying that the CSO stats proves that in 2013 no-one in this State could get 2 pay increases, one being a 6% increase.

By the way I was feeling left out there for a while being someone who had not been charged with having erected a strawman. I have arrived ...

ardmacha · 07-05-2013 11:32AM

I'm just amazed that all the people he knows are doing so well. Double digit annual increases, bonuses left and right.
A 6% increase with another to come in the same year is simply incredible.

To put that 6% in perspective

http://www.cso.ie/en/media/csoie/rel...sts_q42012.pdf

Quote:
In the four years to Q4 2012 average weekly earnings across individual sectors show changes ranging between -11.1% for the Construction
sector and +4.3% for the Information and communication sector
That single 6% annual increase beats the highest increase of the best performing sector seen over four years.

This a good example of the mumbo-jumbo calculations often found here.

A person in a professional job will often increase their real salary by 2 or 3 times as they become more experienced (in the PS they call this increments). They will also receive inflation related increases due to the entire workforce. Consequently, an individual will increase in salary faster than a sector, a 6% increase is exactly what any rational person would expect an employable person to get.

The factual state of affairs is that 6% alone is an incredible annual increase. 6% with more to come is beyond incredible.

Incredible, in the fictional world of Boards.ie, perhaps.

sharper · 07-05-2013 11:46AM

creedp wrote: »

So can I quote you as saying that the CSO stats proves that in 2013 no-one in this State could get 2 pay increases, one being a 6% increase.

Another strawman. I did not say this, I simply placed the increase in context i.e. that it's exceptional and far out of line with the average.

Your inability to deal with arguments as posted and your preference for dealing with made up ones instead says a lot about your position.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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