Abortion debate thread

Qualitymark wrote: »

One group of people that have on-the-ground experience of pro-life is The Farm in Tennessee. Very poor people, this huge commune made their living by delivering babies, among other trades.

In the first edition of their book Spiritual Midwifery, they issued an invitation: if you were pregnant and couldn't keep the baby, don't have an abortion; have the baby, leave it with them, and you could come back and get the baby when you were able to.

They removed the invitation later. They had been flooded with unwanted babies. No one ever came back.

... and could they not have adopted these babies out to good caring adoptive parents?

You're obviously not suggesting that they should have killed them - so what is your point?

Bridge93 wrote: »

Good to see the church now caring about children bunch of hypocrites.

I'm glad you see them as children being killed anyway. Its a shame though that while you are lamenting the RC clergies horrific crimes against children, you are promoting the killing of children. Hypocrisy?

I left school a few years ago and ill tell you now that if all were to vote when the time comes there's 200 pro choice votes from my year group. Just a small sample of the viewpoint of the youth of south Dublin.

Of course you would. You are part of an increasingly self obsessed generation, pre-occupied to the extent of obsession with all things sexual, which ties in to wanting to have the choice to put to death any unwanted children before they are able to grow to maturity. Feeling righteous in unrighteousness, and calling righteousness, unrighteousness. Lacking in moral courage, and living in fear of being ostracised by peers, while at the same time thinking you are somehow single minded and thinking you are different from the 'sheeple' of the past who done as the RC told them. Really the only difference between them and you is that you dance to a different piper

JimiTime wrote: »

Of course you would. You are part of an increasingly self obsessed generation, pre-occupied to the extent of obsession with all things sexual, which ties in to wanting to have the choice to put to death any unwanted children before they are able to grow to maturity. Feeling righteous in unrighteousness, and calling righteousness, unrighteousness.

Jimi please don't 'shoot the messenger' ... this young person is speaking of the reality for young people today ... cut adrift in a moral vacuum.
We can only reason with them and pray for them that they may find God and the blessing of true love and marriage and much-wanted children ... instead of the opposite, which is sadly sometimes their lot.

Bridge93 wrote: »

Do you want a biology lesson?

By all means.

And notice I say PRO CHOICE. I do not want abortion to be used as a source of contraception

The Pro Choice movement does not share your views.

what I do want is women to be allowed abort an unborn foetus if they have been raped, have health issues, may lead to death, or the baby will be a still born. I don't know how that will be done,

You seem to have a conscience about this to an extent, in that you place some value on the unborn growing human being or foetus if you prefer. You don't seem to share the view of many of your 'pro-want it to be legal to be able to choose to kill a growing human in utero' (or pro choice for convenience). I doubt anyone wants mothers to die due to pregnancy, and as it stands, in the case of things like ectopic pregnancies etc, the medical profession in this country will save the life of the mother at the expense of the life of the growing human. I certainly stand by such a decision. In terms of rape, I sincerely empathise and do not condemn a person seeking an abortion in such circumstance, but I still don't see it as right. I could actually abide by a law that granted abortion in the case of rape a lot more than threat of suicide.

How many unwanted babies were born due rape and molestation by paedos who run your church and couldn't be aborted because the church says so?

I'm assuming you are referring to the RC Church, of which I have no affiliation. As for the babies being unwanted. The thing is, I am the cousin of 3 adopted, or 'unwanted' babies. They may not be wanted by their mothers, but there are plenty who would raise them as their own in a loving home.

In modern multicultural Ireland why are the rules of one religion the law of the land that affects those who aren't catholic or Christian?

You'll find that you have overstated things. Abortion is not simply a religious issue. People do not need to be Christian to see an intrinsic value in a developing human being, or to see something very wrong with killing the unborn. Also, religion has always been a big part of the moral debate. You don't simply have a moral vacuum, something/someone will always look to fill to void. Even if we removed every reference to God tomorrow, we'd still (for a time at least) have laws etc based on Christian principals etc. In the post Christian generations to come, people may look at concepts like mercy etc and think, 'What the hell do we need this for' etc, and cut it out like an appendix.

Hopefully my supposedly narrow minded generation can change this country for the better.

Hopefully you can. However, I think you are an easily led generation without a foundation or indeed a rudder. (Obviously I don't mean this personally to you, but in a general sense)

Of course there are people who regret getting an abortion that's the same with most things. People regret getting tattoos and they too are permanent.

A tattoo only effects the person though. Nobody died. A wee bit of a difference.

My generation are close minded?

I didn't say you were closed minded.

Maybe we're just not frightened/ brainwashed by an organisation built on lies and are finally holding views the majority of the world holds.

The question is, who is it that you are brainwashed by. Which piper is calling YOUR tune. Rather than being frightened by the RCC, you are frightened by being ostracised by your peers, or of having a radical conviction that is not the damp, moderate, dont rock the boat attitude of so many.

As far as I'm concerned Pro Life has their very valid point of views

That is good to hear. Are there any that spring to mind?

but when a Paedo Protector is the campaigns voice I'm sorry respect takes a nosedive.

Well, I am not a RC, so he doesn't represent me, and I am certainly not alone in that. Also, while I empathise that a hypocrite preaching is of little value, the issue itself should be reasoned on its merits, rather than the persons delivering the messages.

Bridge93 wrote: »

Do you want a biology lesson?
And notice I say PRO CHOICE. I do not want abortion to be used as a source of contraception what I do want is women to be allowed abort an unborn foetus if they have been raped, have health issues, may lead to death, or the baby will be a still born. I don't know how that will be done, a means test maybe?
How many unwanted babies were born due rape and molestation by paedos who run your church and couldn't be aborted because the church says so?
In modern multicultural Ireland why are the rules of one religion the law of the land that affects those who aren't catholic or Christian?
Hopefully my supposedly narrow minded generation can change this country for the better.
Of course there are people who regret getting an abortion that's the same with most things. People regret getting tattoos and they too are permanent. What hasn't been shown here are the thousands of women who regret not being able to get an abortion. My generation are close minded? Maybe we're just not frightened/ brainwashed by an organisation built on lies and are finally holding views the majority of the world holds.
As far as I'm concerned Pro Life has their very valid point of views but when a Paedo Protector is the campaigns voice I'm sorry respect takes a nosedive.

Thank you Bridget93. I posted my experience of having an abortion here yesterday...........an experience of which I have no regrets and JC immediately pooh poohed my views.

To date he has only posted examples of women who regret their abortions, because this is the only example of female choice that he wishes to accept. He appears to have no interest at all in actually listening to women, but uses negative views to further his own agenda.

I would like to point out that he who shouts loudest does not always win the argument......

nowanathiest wrote: »

Thank you Bridget93. I posted my experience of having an abortion here yesterday...........an experience of which I have no regrets and JC immediately pooh poohed my views.

To date he has only posted examples of women who regret their abortions, because this is the only example of female choice that he wishes to accept. He appears to have no interest at all in actually listening to women, but uses negative views to further his own agenda.

I would like to point out that he who shouts loudest does not always win the argument......

I too have had an abortion and I have no regrets. It happened just a few years ago when I was 31. I had a child at the time so I knew what I was doing, I have had another child since and didn't turn into a total mess regretting what I had done. I've met women who have regretted what they did and its awful they feel that way but its by no means what every women will feel.

What I noticed about the women I spoke to was the abortion was often done on the back of severe family pressure, in a hurry, with no counselling. I, on the other hand, had no pressure from anyone, I felt it was the right thing to do myself from the moment I did the test.

Maybe rather than focus on regret as a whole we need to look at the circumstances of those abortions and see if there was any other factors that might have contributed to their feelings of regret and put in measures that might help those women make the right decision for them rather than patronise those women who don't feel regret and try and dismiss them as being unnatura, in denial or having an agenda.

J C wrote: »

I didn't dismiss your views ... I said that I accept that you never regretted your decision ... but that this isn't the experience of every woman - and this fact also needs to be highlighted.

I am listening to all sides ... and you have given eloquent voice to the views of a woman who doesn't regret abortion ... but the strong voices of women harmed by abortion is indeed important and they also need to be heard.

I agree ... but I'm not shouting ... nor are the calm sad women in the videos shouting ... they're crying at the loss of their children ... but taking some consolation that Jesus Christ has forgiven them ... and looking forward to being re-united with their child in Heaven, one day.

I could believe you if you were posting examples of women who had BOTH positive and negagive experiences, but you are not........you are only posting one type of experience.........hence your actions are not matching your arguments.

I do not need forgiveness from Jesus Christ or anyone else because I have done nothing wrong in my opinion...........and my decisions are none of your business.

eviltwin wrote: »

In my experience very committed pro-lifers are upset when you don't experience regret, its like they actually want you to suffer. I've been accused on one of these threads of lying about my abortion because there is no way I could be telling the truth unless I had a bad experience. That's what you are up against.

Which part of "I accept that you never regretted your abortion" ... do you not accept?

Pro-life people are pro-life for both the unborn child and it's mother and I'm glad that you are living without sadness or regret for you unborn child and I wish you every blessing and happiness in your future life.

I accept that you may not believe in Jesus Christ, but I can assure you that He exists and loves you and wants to Save you.

nowanathiest wrote: »

I could believe you if you were posting examples of women who had BOTH positive and negagive experiences, but you are not........you are only posting one type of experience.........hence your actions are not matching your arguments.

You have posted only your positive experience and I was merely balancing it with a posting of some very negative experiences that women have had - but who have come out the other side with hope and forgiveness.

nowanathiest wrote: »

I do not need forgiveness from Jesus Christ or anyone else because I have done nothing wrong in my opinion...........and my decisions are none of your business.

You are quite entitled to your opinion ... but decisions to take Human life can become other people's business.

eviltwin wrote: »

I'm not talking about you per se, but it has been my experience when I try and talk about my story I'm told I'm either a) in denial and the regret has yet to come, b) I've been brainwashed by the pro choicers or c) I'm a liar.

I would call you none of these things ... I accept what you say.

eviltwin wrote: »

I agree with you, women who experience abortion regret DO need to be heard, we need to hear them so as to understand why they feel that way, what we can do to help them and what measures we can put in place to prevent it. But an outright ban is not the way to do it as we have seen from our own experience here.

What's interesting is that those women are American, they seem to have a place where they can talk about it, what do Irish women have? Nowhere to go and nowhere to talk about it because of the stigma that exists has them terrified, a stigma that is enforced by the prolife side. So you say you care but you don't foster an environment that allows these women a safe space to talk.

The stigma is certainly much less than in the past and Pro-life people do not stigmatise women who have abortions, we respect and love them. We believe they have made a terrible mistake ... but that doesn't reduce our love and respect one iota.
Another factor that may be preventing women talking about negative experiences is because they may feel that they are 'letting down' the Pro-choice movement, if they do so. Either way, I agree that women hurt by abortion shouldn't suffer in silence - they should contact a medical professional or registered post-abortion cousellor for help.

eviltwin wrote: »

Ps, the god talk is wasted on me, I've managed 36 years without him, I think I'll be okay

I'm sorry that you feel that way ... and I respect your right, as a sovereign free-willed Human Being, to reject God.

Bridge93 wrote: »

There wouldn't be many women who've been raped or may die that regret abortion. You'll find most of those who regret it are ones who have gotten an abortion as they were too young for a kid or got accidentally pregnant. I don't think either side of the argument wants something like that to be law.

Abortion on demand (with some time limitations) is pretty much the law almost everywhere else.

A much wanted baby where the pregnancy is terminated because of a life threatening condition, like ectopic pregnancy, for example, can still be regretted by everyone involved ... the same as a spontaneous miscarriage can cause great sadness. You are correct though, that the sadness isn't compounded by feelings of guilt ... as the termination was morally and ethically justified.

J C wrote: »

Which part of "I accept that you never regretted your abortion" ... do you not accept?

Pro-life people are pro-life for both the unborn child and it's mother and I'm glad that you are living without sadness or regret for you unborn child and I wish you every blessing and happiness in your future life.

I accept that you may not believe in Jesus Christ, but I can assure you that He exists and loves you and wants to Save you.

Save me from what exactly?

Bridge93 wrote: »

There wouldn't be many women who've been raped or may die that regret abortion. You'll find most of those who regret it are ones who have gotten an abortion as they were too young for a kid or got accidentally pregnant. I don't think either side of the argument wants something like that to be law.

Regrets or non regrets are an aside.......people have regrets or non regrets about everygthing in life. The main debate here is about valid legal medical services being extended to women who need them. The regrets side show being featured here is merely a red herring to deflect from the real issue.