td's wont be allowed to take communion if they vote for abortion.

murraykil · 05-05-2013 06:35PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

Yeah... that's fine, but you must admit it has nothing to do with the OP.

The OP is about directly threatening TDs to vote in a certain way.

That allegation has now been disproved.

I think Brady was more negligent in his responsibilities than going out and positively facilitating child abuse, as you suggest, and he deserves full and complete condemnation for his negligence.

But seriously, all you're doing here is accusing him of moral hypocrisy. It doesn't have anything to do with faith-based political threats as suggested by the OP.

fa·cil·i·tate: Make (an action or process) easy or easier.

Brady KNEW Smyth was abusing children.

Had Brady gone to the police, as any 36 year old man in any era should have known, and Brady would have known as a very educated man (with a specialty in morality nonetheless :rolleyes: ), was the right thing to do, Smyth would have been arrested and hopefully put in jail. Brady did not do this, and Smyth was abel to continue abusing.

So while you are able to dismiss this as neglect, which I find appalling, I cannot dismiss it as simply negligent and see it as Brady facilitating Smyth in continuing his abuse of children.

gobnaitolunacy · 05-05-2013 06:37PM

COYW wrote: »

Erm, wrong faith there. RCs believe that it is the actual body of Christ.

I'm an RC (on paper only) and believe they're manufactured as a little cottage industry and quite logically do not contain any traces whatsoever of a Judean born about 2,000 years ago.

clairefontaine · 05-05-2013 06:37PM

murraykil wrote: »

fa·cil·i·tate: Make (an action or process) easy or easier.

Brady KNEW Smyth was abusing children.

Had Brady gone to the police, as any 36 year old man in any era should have known, and Brady would have known as a very educated man (with a specialty in morality nonetheless :rolleyes: ), was the right thing to do, Smyth would have been arrested and hopefully put in jail. Brady did not do this, and Smyth was abel to continue abusing.

So while you are able to dismiss this as neglect, which I find appalling, I cannot dismiss it as simply negligent and see it as Brady facilitating Smyth in continuing his abuse of children.

He's an accomplice to a crime. Can't understand why he isn't in prison.

Paramite Pie · 05-05-2013 06:47PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

Scratch the surface and the Irish RC is not all that different. Unless you cherry pick what you practise, it is fundamentalist.

It's ironic that so many defend Islam on boards and slam the Irish RC. Lol...

We don't defend the religion itself but we defend generalizations that all Muslims have extreme views. There are different factions and beliefs within Islam. Like us 'Catholics' many of Muslims are relaxed toward their religion, ie drinking beer, not fasting, pre-maritial sex etc... :P

We slam the RC because it interferes with our lives alot more, not because we think other religions are better.

Cody Pomeray · 05-05-2013 06:47PM

murraykil wrote: »

So while you are able to dismiss this as neglect, which I find appalling

You find it appalling?

I find the word negligence, when used in conjunction with the responsibility of protecting children from sexual predators, to be about as serious as it gets.

That is, the charge for which Brady deserves condemnation is about as serious as it gets.

However, it does not go as far as "facilitating" child abuse, which I think implies some sort of co-operation, teamwork, or unity of purpose deliberately structured so as to bring about the abuse of children.

In that sense, yes, negligence is a better way of describing the wrongdoing of Seán Brady. I don't think negligence could be called a 'dismissal' under anyone's definition.

Sarky · 05-05-2013 06:48PM

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I'm an RC (on paper only) and believe they're manufactured as a little cottage industry and quite logically do not contain any traces whatsoever of a Judean born about 2,000 years ago.

No wonder you're only Catholic on paper; once they're consecrated, it's your duty as a Catholic to believe that it's real flesh.

gobnaitolunacy · 05-05-2013 06:50PM

Sarky wrote: »

No wonder you're only Catholic on paper; once they're consecrated, it's your duty as a Catholic to believe that it's real flesh.

Yup, going to hell in a handcart.:D

murraykil · 05-05-2013 06:51PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

He's an accomplice to a crime. Can't understand why he isn't in prison.

The legislation which makes the non-reporting a crime has only just been introduced and he cannot be prosecuted for an incident before this date.

Legally he did nothing wrong; how he can justify it to himself and others, I just don't know.

murraykil · 05-05-2013 07:05PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

You find it appalling?

I find the word negligence, when used in conjunction with the responsibility of protecting children from sexual predators, to be about as serious as it gets.

That is, the charge for which Brady deserves condemnation is about as serious as it gets.

However, it does not go as far as "facilitating" child abuse, which I think implies some sort of co-operation, teamwork, or unity of purpose deliberately structured so as to bring about the abuse of children.

In that sense, yes, negligence is a better way of describing the wrongdoing of Seán Brady. I don't think negligence could be called a 'dismissal' under anyone's definition.

While you feel all he needs is condemnation, I feel he needs to be jailed.

While you feel that knowing a man is abusing children and watching while abused children sign forms saying they will keep the abuse a secret is only negligent, I see it as him facilitating the the protection of Smyth which allowed him to continue abusing children.

What form do you think the condemnation should take? A simple 'tut-tut Mr. Brady', maybe said in a loud and angry tone?

Very interesting words you choose, "some sort of co-operation, teamwork, or unity of purpose deliberately structured".

I would think that these words are a perfect way to describe the meeting and process where the children were made to sign their silence was exacly "some sort of co-operation, teamwork, or unity of purpose deliberately structured" but the protect the church's reputation, not to "to bring about the abuse of children".

"the (continuing) abuse of children" was just a very obvious side effect of this "co-operation, teamwork, or unity of purpose deliberately structured".

krudler · 05-05-2013 07:08PM

gobnaitolunacy wrote: »

I'm an RC (on paper only) and believe they're manufactured as a little cottage industry and quite logically do not contain any traces whatsoever of a Judean born about 2,000 years ago.

You'd be amazed how many catholics think the same, despite not having a clue about their own religion, nothing symbolic about it.

clairefontaine · 05-05-2013 07:10PM

murraykil wrote: »

The legislation which makes the non-reporting a crime has only just been introduced and he cannot be prosecuted for an incident before this date.

Legally he did nothing wrong; how he can justify it to himself and others, I just don't know.

He did more than not report it, he pressured the victims to stay quiet. That is aiding and abetting. He should have been arrested.

Cody Pomeray · 05-05-2013 07:17PM

murraykil wrote: »

While you feel all he needs is condemnation, I feel he needs to be jailed.

If he has broken the law, then he should be imprisoned.

I'm entirely critical of Seán Brady's actions when he was a Priest involved in the Smyth case.

But to park that there for a minute, it has nothing to do with Bishops allegedly making threats to politicians over abortion legislation. That's my point.

I would think that these words are a perfect way to describe the meeting and process where the children were made to sign their silence was exacly "some sort of co-operation, teamwork, or unity of purpose deliberately structured" but the protect the church's reputation

Yes, I agree.

The Church did facilitate the protection of its reputation by silencing victims.

However, to say that Seán Brady himself facilitated child abuse is going too far, judging by what we know of the Smyth case. He was negligent in his duty to protect children, and by extension, protect the faithful who trusted his Church. But he did not go out and deliberately seek victims or co-operate with paedophiles to groom children, so your use of the term "facilitate" is inappropriate.

electro222 · 05-05-2013 07:31PM

Actually.
I think what you heard was an interviewer putting forward the proposition that this would happen, The church has not said anything about withholding communion, Hate to spoil a good rumor,

electro222 · 05-05-2013 07:34PM

Very true.
The catholic church is the most tolerant religion in the world maybe its time we changed !!, Islam issues fatwas, and ask the comedian Tommy Tiernan what happens when you piss off the Jews,
You go from comedy festivals in Canada to Banteer community hall in Cork.

murraykil · 05-05-2013 07:40PM

Cody Pomeray wrote: »

If he has broken the law, then he should be imprisoned.

I'm entirely critical of Seán Brady's actions when he was a Priest involved in the Smyth case.

But to park that there for a minute, it has nothing to do with Bishops allegedly making threats to politicians over abortion legislation. That's my point.

Yes, I agree.

The Church did facilitate the protection of its reputation by silencing victims.

However, to say that Seán Brady himself facilitated child abuse is going too far, judging by what we know of the Smyth case. He was negligent in his duty to protect children, and by extension, protect the faithful who trusted his Church. But he did not go out and deliberately seek victims or co-operate with paedophiles to groom children, so your use of the term "facilitate" is inappropriate.

I guess this is how he justifies it to himself also.

I wonder what does it say about the calibre of clergy we have in this country when someone like him, at the age of 36, was too weak, or too un-willing to stand up to the hierarchy of the church and protect the children already abused and yet to be abused.

But no, that's not the case, the majority of the clergy in Ireland are great are good people, his promotions are probably reward for his towing the Roman line and putting the reputation of the hierarchy of the church ahead of it's loyal and devout followers and their children.

Dave! · 05-05-2013 07:42PM

nut_in_a_rut wrote: »

im atheist yet I too don't have a problem with the catholic church position on abortion etc , no one forces me to attend mass each week and hasn't for the past twelve years , if a TD is weak enough to vote out of fear of what their local priest thinks , their not worth their seat in the dail , let alone the local chapel

I agree. The Catholic Church are lobbying the TDs, just like any other lobby group does. They want to influence policy on this matter, just like the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" lobbyists do, and just like the unions and business groups do on fiscal matters.

They may be a bit cheeky and on unstable moral ground, but they should be at liberty to try and influence legislators. And legislators should feel at liberty to ignore them.

The ire should be directed at any TD who might let these jokers sway them.

clairefontaine · 05-05-2013 08:11PM

Dave! wrote: »

I agree. The Catholic Church are lobbying the TDs, just like any other lobby group does. They want to influence policy on this matter, just like the "pro-choice" and "pro-life" lobbyists do, and just like the unions and business groups do on fiscal matters.

They may be a bit cheeky and on unstable moral ground, but they should be at liberty to try and influence legislators. And legislators should feel at liberty to ignore them.

The ire should be directed at any TD who might let these jokers sway them.

What other lobby group gets so much media voice?

COYW · 05-05-2013 08:41PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

What other lobby group gets so much media voice?

The pro-choice movement has a serious media voice to be fair clairefontaine, as does pretty much every trade union in the land. I think both sides have a fair share in the media voice on this.

Nodin · 05-05-2013 08:42PM

electro222 wrote: »

Very true.
The catholic church is the most tolerant religion in the world maybe its time we changed !!, Islam issues fatwas, and ask the comedian Tommy Tiernan what happens when you piss off the Jews,
You go from comedy festivals in Canada to Banteer community hall in Cork.

He made that joke in 2009. He was in that Festival in 2010, 2012 and 2013.

Any other stories for us?

Phill Ewinn · 05-05-2013 08:45PM

nut_in_a_rut wrote: »

criticising Catholicism on boards is tolerated as Catholicism doesn't make the list of " pc liberal sacred cows "

islam does

Pretty much a Catholic bashing forum.

Sarky · 05-05-2013 08:48PM

If Catholics actually stood up to their leaders and called them on their sanctimonious bullsh*t, you might have an easier time of it. Then again, such dissident actions would be very unCatholic and you'd probably be excommunicated for daring to show independant thought. Rock, meet hard place.

murraykil · 05-05-2013 09:00PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

What other lobby group gets so much media voice?

The Vintners ass or whoever lobbies for the pubs. They are getting the gov to up prices in the supermarket. The gov going along under the guise of public health concerns due to excess drinking. The gov are unable to deal with antisocial behaviour due to excess alcohol consumption so they do this, might mean extra tax and they get praise from the Vintners. F U citizen, you have to pay extra for your bottle of wine because some arseholes who drink to excess.

The motor industry; haven't they got them to bring in this half year reg thing to artificially create or inflate a market which is based around the Celtic tiger attitude of 'your car ain't worth shoite if you don't have the highest number reg?

I don't see them bending to the Roman Catholic church on this one though. Even Enda is sick of Rome at this stage. Irreagardless of the thread title, the content of the opening post might come to fruition, this might be the last time much attention is paid to RCC press releases, especially ones made by Brady.

Morag · 05-05-2013 09:02PM

Brady has no ground to be lecturing anyone on Morals after he was complicted in covering up for pedo priests.

Pherekydes · 05-05-2013 09:06PM

Phill Ewinn wrote: »

Pretty much a Catholic bashing forum.

They'll be all pissing themselves when Jesus Christ returns. It'll be any day now. Anyday...

P.S. One thing JC hated more than anything was a hypocrite*. He had complete contempt for them. The first thing he'll do is depose the church leadership, all of them, from their gilded thrones and ivory towers.

*Excepting people who hurt children, of course.

P.P.S. It'll be any day now. Any day.

P.P.P.S. They've been saying this for 2000 years. But it'll be any day...

murraykil · 05-05-2013 09:31PM

Pherekydes wrote: »

They'll be all pissing themselves when Jesus Christ returns. It'll be any day now. Anyday...

P.S. One thing JC hated more than anything was a hypocrite*. He had complete contempt for them. The first thing he'll do is depose the church leadership, all of them, from their gilded thrones and ivory towers.

*Excepting people who hurt children, of course.

P.P.S. It'll be any day now. Any day.

P.P.P.S. They've been saying this for 2000 years. But it'll be any day...

This is the truth! So many Christians are so far removed from the real messages of Jesus and Christianity. The santicity of the institution that is the Roman Catholic church and it's corrupt hietarchy,with their self-serving doctrine is far more important than real Christian values which Jesus stood for. It seems for many that saving their own soul is what matters, not caring who gets trampled on in the process.

padd b1975 · 05-05-2013 09:43PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

What other lobby group gets so much media voice?

The unions.

murraykil · 05-05-2013 10:30PM

nut_in_a_rut wrote: »

he should have resigned when that came out and has no credibility left but I sympathise with his predictament going back to the seventies , had he gone to the guards , his complaints would have been ignored as the guards have always been deferential to powerfull institutions , the guards aided the nuns during the time of the laundries , had brady gone to this bishop or higher , he would have found himself on a plane to some corner of Africa

Aww, poor Mr. Brady, you are right! Had he stood up for the children already abused and yet to be abused he probably wouldn't have risen to the top of the RCC. There was me thinking of the children (no Simpsons please) but Brady is the real victim here. How tough the seventies and the following decades must have been for him, ignoring the suffering of children for so long. He should be sainted.

Birroc · 05-05-2013 11:04PM

nut_in_a_rut wrote: »

he should have resigned when that came out and has no credibility left but I sympathise with his predictament going back to the seventies , had he gone to the guards , his complaints would have been ignored as the guards have always been deferential to powerfull institutions , the guards aided the nuns during the time of the laundries , had brady gone to this bishop or higher , he would have found himself on a plane to some corner of Africa

Are you for real?!!!? In some instances Brady didn't even inform/warn the parents of kids that were being abused. Smyth abused several of these children further after the interviews. He swore them to secrecy alright. Smyth continued to abuse for another 13 years. Brady could have stopped it but his priority was power.

Catholics of Ireland, wake the fcuk up!

Birroc · 05-05-2013 11:12PM

Sorry I was wrong, Smyth continued for another 18 years.

Brady’s so-called ‘investigations’ in 1975 concerning Smyth actually enabled Smyth to continue his reign of terror for another 18 years. It can be argued that Brady’s ‘investigations’ actually cleared Smyth – as Smyth stayed free for nearly TWO more decades. Brady must go and all the files relating to the Smyth ‘investigations’ must be released. Brady’s 1975 ‘detective work’ took place only yards from Dundalk Garda Station. Brady couldn’t walk those extra few yards to protect children … over 100 children were raped by Smyth AFTER Brady’s ‘investigation’.

He should be in prison.

http://www.broadsheet.ie/tag/cardinal-sean-brady/

plannerscanner · 05-05-2013 11:15PM

For once the CC are spot on in their threat. And they should carry it through come the aftermath of the vote.

Just to be clear - I am in favour of legislation in respect of the x-case. However, I am also interested in how the CC will go about renewing itself on the island after a lenghty period on the political sidelines. I have felt for a number of years that if they wish to be taken seriously they will have to start utilising their strong points to force their way back towards the centre of political discussion. And one of their strong points, as seen by politicians, is association. TD's want to be seen at mass, and more especially funerals. And if the CC has a rule that will exclude them then they should go ahead and use it to protect their values. The same goes for non-practising Catholics. You don't come to mass - then forget about the church wedding/baptism/communion etc.

Although I am very much in the lapsed Catholic camp, and I disagree with the CC on many issues, I have to admit, if they follow through on this threat I will be very impressed.

td's wont be allowed to take communion if they vote for abortion.

Comments