Is Irish criticism of Israel anti-semetic?

hatrickpatrick · 02-05-2013 03:19PM

Sand wrote: »

Look at the experience of Irish band Dervish who became a target of concerted hatred - their crime? Planning to play a concert in Israel. After an avalanche of "anger and hatred" cancelling the tour was the easier option for them and their families.

Everyone has the right to freedom of speech. You can choose to ignore criticism or not. Nobody forced them to cancel anything - if you're in ye public domain and you can't handle public criticism.......

Any example he gives will be anecdotal by its very nature - you'll still have to rely on his record of what was said and done. Either you accept his opinion for what its worth, or you don't.

No, I'm genuinely interested to hear an example of what he considers anti semitism.

hatrickpatrick · 02-05-2013 03:22PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

They start banging on about Jewish domination conspiracies and other such shhite. Sometimes it's even more overt, i.e directly blaming the conflict on Jews being **** human beings.

That is indeed anti semitism. Haven't encountered this myself but I'll take your word for it, that's a BS argument. Sure, the Israeli lobby in the US is far too powerful but that can hardly be classed as a conspiracy, there's nothing remotely secret about it!

References to the Holocaust can also serve as a red flag that bull**** is about to be spewed.

Really? Personally I'd feel that it's quite relevant to point out that a nation which was founded on the back of atrocious persecution, has itself become a bully which atrociously persecutes.

Herb Powell · 02-05-2013 06:43PM

laoch na mona wrote: »

you must be unfortunate to meet the minority of lunatics most peoples problem is with human rights abuses and oppression of a sovereign nation

Grayson wrote: »

Do you live in america? I've never encountered a single person like that. And Most of my friends would be anti israel politically. It's because of the injustice that's meted out to palestinians, not because of religion or anything like that.
The only place I've ever seen stuff like that is online. And even then only on far right wing sites or conspiracy forums.

Believe it or not, I have heard the "Jews run the media/banks/whatverthe****" thing in real life

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Really? Personally I'd feel that it's quite relevant to point out that a nation which was founded on the back of atrocious persecution, has itself become a bully which atrociously persecutes.

Yeah, that's why I said it can be a red flag. There's ways of commenting in the historical irony, saying "Looks like the Jews never learned their lesson" or something like that is out of order.

Now don't get me wrong lads, I do not like the way Israel behaves AT ALL, I think they're super hypocritical and they shouldn't be so blindly supported by so many nations. I like that Ireland calls them out on their shhit. If you want to see what the craic is, have a look at the Israeli Defence Forces' official facebook page. It's pretty ****ed up imo (moreso for the absolute lunatics who comment on it than the actual content posted).

Israel is a Jewish majority state, but does this mean I dislike Jews? Not at all (I'm actually intrigued with their culture tbh.). Jew, black, muslim, I don't give a ****, it's all good. I do not dislike Israel because it is Jewish, I dislike Israel because they act like cunnts.

Grayson · 02-05-2013 08:24PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

Believe it or not, I have heard the "Jews run the media/banks/whatverthe****" thing in real life

What's mad is there is the smallest grain of truth in it. There is a huge jewish presence in the media in the US. Especially in hollywood. And a lot are pro zionist (I hate that work but I'm using it to describe anti palestinian sentiments. As opposed to pro-israel.) supporters in that group.

Thing is, it's not like they are all supporters of those policies. It's not like there's one whole group of homogenous jews who have secret meetings. There's a huge variety of political opinion there. And the nuts thing is that because of the sway the jewish lobby has in the US, israel is more afraid of displeasing them then they are of offending actual countries. The fact is a lot of jewish people in the US are just as pissed off as everyone else.

I will give hard handed israeli politics this though. As much as I disagree with most of it, I have no idea what it's like to be a member of a race that has had countries try to exterminate them. And then to move enmasse to another place where people feel the same. It has to be hard to view the world as we do when you're brought up with that kind of heritage.

arybvtcw0eolkf · 02-05-2013 08:56PM

Online, no its rarely anti-semetic.. But in real life where people don't have to worry about being banned from internet discussion boards its (in my experience) very common.

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Example?

lol, so funny.

Ok come join me in real life.

Toby Take a Bow · 02-05-2013 09:31PM

Kimora Orange Visitor wrote: »

lol, so funny.

Ok come join me in real life.

'Real life'? Bar some anecdotal incidents you have experienced, I would think that anti-semitism (especially of the 'jews secretly ruling the world' crap) is quite rare in day-to-day Irish life. I know I have never experienced it, none of my friends or family have experienced it (and, yes, somebody spouting something similar would be a topic of conversation) and none of the Jewish people that I've studied with/worked with over the years ever experienced anything of the sort in Ireland.

We must operate in very, very different circles.

biko · 02-05-2013 09:43PM

I'm quite pro-Israel having lived there a year.
Then, as now, I'm not a fan of Israeli politics but must say it did open my eyes to the two sides of the conflict more than before I went.

That said I'm not really sure why it has got such attention compared to so many other conflicts around ME and Africa. I suspect it just has higher news value somehow than the genocide of the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey. And no-one knows much about the Tamil in Sri Lanka.
The world cares about what the journos care about, and the journos care about the Palestinians.

Grayson · 02-05-2013 10:17PM

biko wrote: »

I'm quite pro-Israel having lived there a year.
Then, as now, I'm not a fan of Israeli politics but must say it did open my eyes to the two sides of the conflict more than before I went.

That said I'm not really sure why it has got such attention compared to so many other conflicts around ME and Africa. I suspect it just has higher news value somehow than the genocide of the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey. And no-one knows much about the Tamil in Sri Lanka.
The world cares about what the journos care about, and the journos care about the Palestinians.

It's a westernised country and could be compared to a european one. Most people there had parents or grandparents from europe. Because of that it's held to higher standards. It's also a focal point for western culture Vs eastern culture. All the other conflicts you mention are internal conflict between two forces which are roughly the same culture (At least to western eyes)

I think it might also have something to do with the holocaust. There was a lot of guilt knocking around Europe after the war (As there should be)

And finally, Israeli girls in uniform are HOT. Don't really think that's a reason. But I felt it was worth mentioning.

EDIT: Btw, when you say pro israel. Thing is I think most people are pro israel. Even those who are pro palestinian. It's not like it's a competition and anyone wants to see Israel lose. Especially considering what that would mean. I think most people want to see an equitable draw that is fair to both sides. It's just that "pro-palestinian" people think that israel should budge a bit.

hatrickpatrick · 02-05-2013 11:53PM

biko wrote: »

I'm quite pro-Israel having lived there a year.
Then, as now, I'm not a fan of Israeli politics but must say it did open my eyes to the two sides of the conflict more than before I went.

That said I'm not really sure why it has got such attention compared to so many other conflicts around ME and Africa. I suspect it just has higher news value somehow than the genocide of the Kurds in Iraq and Turkey. And no-one knows much about the Tamil in Sri Lanka.
The world cares about what the journos care about, and the journos care about the Palestinians.

As I said, it's most likely down to the hypocrisy of the West. That in and of itself pisses people off, and nowhere is it more obvious than where Israel and Palestine are concerned.

"We want to promote freedom and democracy in the world! All men are created Equal! Unless your enemies are our friends, in which case treating you like sh!t is completely acceptable"

This gripe is not relevant in the other conflicts you mention since the bullies in those cases are not generally defended by holier than thou Western regimes.

StewartGriffin · 03-05-2013 01:32AM

It is fashionable in Ireland to be pro-Palestine. Has been for many many years and saw it again yesterday bannered on the May-Day marches.

PLO scarves sell well, particularly among the Pseudo-intellectuals (I know several fellow secondary school teachers who wear them with pride).

In my opinion, though the conflict is intrinsically different, the Irish attitude to the Palestinians is similar to the Irish-American attitude to the IRA during the 70's/80's.

laoch na mona · 03-05-2013 11:25AM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

It is fashionable in Ireland to be pro-Palestine. Has been for many many years and saw it again yesterday bannered on the May-Day marches.

PLO scarves sell well, particularly among the Pseudo-intellectuals (I know several fellow secondary school teachers who wear them with pride).

In my opinion, though the conflict is intrinsically different, the Irish attitude to the Palestinians is similar to the Irish-American attitude to the IRA during the 70's/80's.

fashionable?? to be pro human rights??????

that's something that I hope never goes out of style

biko · 03-05-2013 12:42PM

There is a discrepancy about what goes on there and what is reported here.
Yes, Israeli government is bulldozing houses and this makes the news big time.
On the other hand Israel government provides healthcare for Arab adults and kids from Palestine (Palestinian medical tourism) and there are Arabs in the Israeli Knesset (Dail) and have been since 1949.

When non-Israeli jews are attacked in other countries, like in France and Sweden, to me that's anti-Semitism.
They are not attacked because they are Israelis (they are not) but only because they are jews.

Criticism of the Israeli government is not anti-semitic in my opinion, all governments should be under scrutiny all the time. It's the base of democracy.

hatrickpatrick · 03-05-2013 03:12PM

biko wrote: »

There is a discrepancy about what goes on there and what is reported here.
Yes, Israeli government is bulldozing houses and this makes the news big time.
On the other hand Israel government provides healthcare for Arab adults and kids from Palestine (Palestinian medical tourism) and there are Arabs in the Israeli Knesset (Dail) and have been since 1949.

In order to preserve a Jewish majority, the Israelis do not give Palestinians in the occupied areas a vote. However, they do insist that they have legal jurisdiction over sovereign rule in those areas.

This is more or less synonymous with the practise of "Gerrymandering" as it was known in Northern Ireland back in the bad old days.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gerrymandering

Now perhaps this is just a difference of opinion, but in my honest view this practise is completely, totally and utterly incompatible with what we regard as "civilized democracy". So once again: Israel can either continue to behave the way it behaves and accept that the rest of the world will regard it as an undemocratic bully-boy state, or else it can choose to stop discriminating and occupying people who do not want to be occupied, and join the Western nations it claims to emulate in the club of relatively democratic and civilized nations.

The point is, you have to choose one. You can't have your cake and eat it. This is precisely what the Israeli and American governments want, and this is why everyone despises them so much. If you think about any other conflict which is often mentioned as not getting as much attention, that's the reason - other despotic regimes around the world never claimed to be civilized or democratic, they do not demand respect from the rest of the world and they do not expect or demand sympathy from us.

Israel, on the other hand, behaves the way it behaves and then gets utterly butthurt when the rest of the world has the temerity to raise objections. That's why they piss people off. Most other despotic regimes don't do this, they behave the way they behave and make no secret of the fact that they don't care about what anyone else thinks.

FTA69 · 03-05-2013 03:37PM

To be fair there has always been support within Ireland for those suffering under imperialism, probably because most people recognise that we ourselves fought against it for long enough and know when some things are just plain wrong in that regard.

Like in Palestine today we also suffered land grabs, internment without trial, the shooting of unarmed demonstraters, roadblocks, soldiers smashing houses to bits during raids etc. What's going on today in Palestine is a disgrace and I don't think any right thinking person would disagree with that.

Ireland also had a very prominent stance against apartheid in South Africa and we had all the usual gobsh*tes back then accusing them of focussing on the "trendy" struggle while ignoring the rest of Africa etc. Some people will inexplicably side with power over the oppressed.

Thankfully most Irish people don't when it comes down to cases of naked imperialism.

Nodin · 03-05-2013 03:48PM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

............

In my opinion, though the conflict is intrinsically different, the Irish attitude to the Palestinians is similar to the Irish-American attitude to the IRA during the 70's/80's.

The difference lying in the fact that the plantations were long over by the time the IRA emerged.

Is Irish criticism of Israel anti-semetic?

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