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Should people accused of sexual offences have a right to anonymity?

  • 02-05-2013 10:43AM
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭


    I posted this separate to the Ken Barlow link, as it goes to a wider question, even though recent events have given It airtime!

    What are people's views on this? Should someone accused of sexual offences have a right to anonymity? On the one hand I think that the stigma associated with an accusation, combined with the "no smoke without fire" mindset means once named you can never be fully considered innocent in the court of public opinion.

    Equally I know that our legal system means that for any crime a large number if guilty people will be acquitted (that the nature of innocent till proven guilty). Many people would also argue that conviction rates for sexual crimes don't even come close to reflecting the underlying incidence.

    On balance however I'm inclined to argue for anonymity until proven guilty (throw the book at them afterwards)

    http://www.independent.co.uk/news/uk/crime/exclusive-three-in-four-believe-those-accused-of-sexual-assaults-should-be-granted-anonymity-8599788.html

    "Three out of four people believe that people accused of rape and other sexual assaults should have their identities protected until they are convicted.
    A ComRes survey for The Independent found strong public support for the controversial view expressed by Maura McGowan, chairman of the Bar Council, who argued that suspects in sex cases should enjoy the same right to anonymity as defendants.  Some 76 per cent of people agree with the statement that “people accused of sexual assault should be given anonymity until they are proven guilty”, while 18 per cent disagree and six per cent don't know.
    Perhaps surprisingly, there is little difference between the two sexes on the issue. Some 74 per cent of women support  anonymity for such defendants,  compared to 78 per cent of men. Liberal Democrat supporters (95 per cent) are more likely to back anonymity than Conservative (76 per cent) and Labour supporters (75 per cent).  People in the top AB social group (80 per cent) are more likely to endorse anonymity than those in the bottom DE grade (67 per cent).
    Jill Saward, who became the first UK rape victim to waive her right to anonymity after the Ealing Vicarage rape in 1990 and now campaigns for victims' rights,  said she was “incredibly sad” about the ComRes findings. “People do not understand the danger involved in sexual violence, and don't see the need to protect people from it,” she told The Independent. “People say 'innocent until guilty'. That is fine if you are not the person who has been assaulted.”
    Ms Saward added: “It is not about naming and shaming people. I want to name and protect people. I am very sad that people seem to think that protecting men is often more important than protecting those who for whatever reason end up as victims.”
    She said such a change in the law would amount to “victim blaming.” She insisted that the number of false claims for sexual assaults was in line with that for other offences, saying that anonymity was not needed to protect men from such allegations. She said such a change in the law would amount to “victim blaming.” She insisted that the number of false claims for sexual assaults was in line with that for other offences, saying that anonymity was not needed to protect men from such allegations.
    Ms Saward  argued that protecting the identities of people accused of sex crimes might stop other victims coming forward in high-profile cases like that of Jimmy Savile, while allowing names to become public would give them the confidence to go the police. “There is a danger of repeat offenders constantly getting away with it,” she said. 
    Anonymity was given to defendants in rape cases by the 1976 Sexual Offences Act but removed 12 years later.  Plans to restore it were included in the original Coalition Agreement after the 2010 general election but later dropped.  Publicly, ministers said there was not enough evidence to justify such a change. Privately, Conservative and Liberal Democrat politicians said they were under the impression that the other party supported the move, when neither did.
    Ms McGowan said in February: “Until they have been proven to have done something as awful as this, I think there is a strong argument in cases of this sort - because they carry such stigma with them - to maintain the defendant's anonymity. But once the defendant is convicted then of course everything should be open to scrutiny and to the public.”
    The Bar Council chairman admitted there was an argument for the present system.  She said that when anonymity had been given to defendants,  “there was a sense that perhaps it was affording too much protection to people. There is obviously a public interest in open justice - people would say they're entitled to know not simply who's convicted, but who's been accused.”
    Her call was rejected by Terry Harrison, who considered suicide after being falsely accused of rape five years ago. “If a person has done such a heinous crime then they should be named and shamed, I agree - but not until they have been done for it,” he said.“I was guilty until I was proven innocent and even when I was proven innocent I'm still getting judged.”
    ComRes interviewed 1,001 GB adults by telephone between April 26-28. Data were weighted to be demographically representative of all GB adults. Data were also weighted by past vote recall. ComRes is a member of the British Polling Council and abides by its rules."


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Comments

  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,228 ✭✭✭bluto63


    I'd bring it further, not just sexual offences, but every offence.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,808 ✭✭✭FatherLen


    I think that until proven guilty, the accused should have anonymity.
    Even if proven innocent an accusation like sexual assault will stay with you.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,238 ✭✭✭Tombo2001


    Dont see how it works in practice.

    Courts are public places.

    In addition........can we please give examples of people who had cases brought against them, were found innocent*, and are now tainted........I cant think of too many.....

    *Michael Jackson settled out of court


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,103 ✭✭✭mathie


    FatherLen wrote: »
    Even if proven innocent an accusation like sexual assault will stay with you.

    Amen Father.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,430 ✭✭✭Ilik Urgee


    FatherLen wrote: »
    I think that until proven guilty, the accused should have anonymity.
    Even if proven innocent an accusation like sexual assault will stay with you.

    I hear you're a racist now Father.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,230 ✭✭✭Merkin


    Yes I think they should. Not doing so just fuels vigilante behaviour like that unruly mob of yokels who went after the pediatrician in England because they though paediatrics and paedophilia was one in the same.....I pity the fools :rolleyes:

    If the accused is innocent, disclosure of their identity will potentially ruin their lives.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    FatherLen wrote: »
    I think that until proven guilty, the accused should have anonymity.
    Even if proven innocent an accusation like sexual assault will stay with you.

    +1 look at any tabloid and you see what they think of innocent until proven guilty. the presumption of innocence is key to the legal system and should be protected.
    once they're convicted name and shame them


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 5,746 ✭✭✭Duckworth_Luas


    Guy gets accused of sexual offence = front page news
    Accusation proven false = page six


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,970 ✭✭✭laoch na mona


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Dont see how it works in practice.

    Courts are public places.

    closed session?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,453 ✭✭✭Shenshen


    I'm originally from a country where even once convicted, the press do not have the right to name neither the offender nor the victim.
    As such, I still find it rather shocking that here, that right doesn't exist.

    But despite that, I find that "innocent until proven guilty" is the single most important principle in law. And even there, we often seem to settle more on "innocent until convicted", as I can think of more than one legal case where the prove didn't honestly satisfy me personally.

    I find it's paramount to not take away anybody's rights simply on the basis of an accusation.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,151 ✭✭✭kupus


    Guy gets accused of sexual offence = front page news
    Accusation proven false = page six

    page six, it'll be lucky if it makes the news again.


  • Posts: 18,046 ✭✭✭✭ [Deleted User]


    Yea definitely. No argument.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Dont see how it works in practice.

    Courts are public places.

    In addition........can we please give examples of people who had cases brought against them, were found innocent*, and are now tainted........I cant think of too many.....

    *Michael Jackson settled out of court

    Craig Charles, Matthew Kelly,......

    (shall I find a few more? Btw I you can find the video of Matthew Kelly being interviewed by Frank Skinner after he was acquitted it's priceless- sad and bittersweet in some ways, but he shreads Skinner for the laughs he got at his expense while the charges were still active


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    Of course they should have anonimity until proven guilty.
    Too many assholes with the old "no smoke without fire" even after an acquittal.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 19,610 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    Tombo2001 wrote: »
    Dont see how it works in practice.

    Courts are public places.

    In addition........can we please give examples of people who had cases brought against them, were found innocent*, and are now tainted........I cant think of too many.....

    *Michael Jackson settled out of court

    Because the media never reports on the story once its not exciting anymore.
    Conviction = exciting and media taking a bow for being right all along.
    But proven innocent = boring and media looking like filth for printing factless accusations and tainting the publics opinion.

    An accusation like that even if you are proven innocent is unfortunately something that stays with you for life


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 43,038 ✭✭✭✭SEPT 23 1989


    Borrow money from a bank that you can't pay back = name published


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 3,775 ✭✭✭Death and Taxes


    Borrow money from a bank that you can't wont pay back = name published

    What has that to do with being "accused" of a sexual offence?:confused:


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    It is funny they class the proposal as controversial but roughly 2 thirds of the people asked think it is right. That has got to be the low on the controversial list with so many thinking it reasonable.

    If the charge can turn into a punishment in itself then anonymity should be given. Louis Walsh was lucky it came out so quickly he was not guilty but at the same time the guy involved will actually suffer quite a lot probably well outside the level of justice


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    Borrow money from a bank that you can't pay back = name published

    Bit of a leap if you're linking a civil matter with some of the most serious types of criminal offences.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 88,968 ✭✭✭✭mike65


    Of course and a false accuser should be named (I would not allow it if an unwitting third party or a child was involved).


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,798 ✭✭✭✭hatrickpatrick


    Ms Saward added: “It is not about naming and shaming people. I want to name and protect people. I am very sad that people seem to think that protecting men is often more important than protecting those who for whatever reason end up as victims.”

    Until the accused is found guilty, the allegation is unproven. Therefore using the word "victim" in itself betrays your bias - it's alleged victim.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,793 ✭✭✭tritium


    Until the accused is found guilty, the allegation is unproven. Therefore using the word "victim" in itself betrays your bias - it's alleged victim.

    I actually found her comments quite sad.
    Id suggest clearly been badly damaged by the awful thing that happened to her and hasn't been able to regain a more general objectivity. Hopefully she'll be able to get thesupports she needs to move away from the dark place she appears to be in


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    FatherLen wrote: »
    I think that until proven guilty, the accused should have anonymity.
    Even if proven innocent an accusation like sexual assault will stay with you.

    This


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,745 ✭✭✭laugh


    You have to be suffering from some kind mental incapacitation to think that someone accused of any offence should be publicly outed.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,059 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    How do supporters of the idea of anonymity (and i'm one, tentatively) get around the fact that courts are open to the public?

    Holding cases related to alleged sexual crimes behind closed doors? Surely a person accused of any other crime is entitled to the same anonymity?

    Do we make all courtrooms private?

    As an aside, I have seen in the past that some reports on cases involving sexual abuse/rape have carried the line that the defendant's name is being withheld to protect the identity of the (allged) victim. I've always imagined this is because the defendant is a family member. But how does this work in the actual courtroom?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    osarusan wrote: »
    How do supporters of the idea of anonymity (and i'm one, tentatively) get around the fact that courts are open to the public?

    Holding cases related to alleged sexual crimes behind closed doors? Surely a person accused of any other crime is entitled to the same anonymity?

    Do we make all courtrooms private?

    As an aside, I have seen in the past that some reports on cases involving sexual abuse/rape have carried the line that the defendant's name is being withheld to protect the identity of the (allged) victim. I've always imagined this is because the defendant is a family member. But how does this work in the actual courtroom?


    You can simply make it illegal to report on it. The same way the accuser doesn't get their name printed. You can give the details of a case without naming the people to the general public.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 6,461 ✭✭✭--Kaiser--


    laugh wrote: »
    You have to be suffering from some kind mental incapacitation to think that someone accused of any offence should be publicly outed.

    These are the type of people who would have been brandishing pitchforks and firebrands back in the middle ages


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 17,059 ✭✭✭✭osarusan


    Ray Palmer wrote: »
    You can simply make it illegal to report on it. The same way the accuser doesn't get their name printed. You can give the details of a case without naming the people to the general public.

    Basically anonymity regarding the media, while not in the courtroom?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 9,351 ✭✭✭Ray Palmer


    osarusan wrote: »
    Basically anonymity regarding the media, while not in the courtroom?


    Pretty much how I believe it is done at the moment. I don't think the hide the identity of the people in court just don't publish the information or allow it to be reported.

    If they can do it for one side they can do it for both.


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  • Closed Accounts Posts: 459 ✭✭RainMaker


    I think most people would support it, but there are some possible consequences....

    What's to stop the accused from sitting down with a local friendly journalist (a la Michael Lowry ) and portraying himself as the falsely accused victim in the whole case...

    Then again it wasn't so long ago that some wonderful people in Listowel showed their approval for a convicted rapist while vilifying the victim in that case!


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