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The semicolon - For or Against?

  • 30-04-2013 12:53am
    #1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 45,630 ✭✭✭✭Mr.Nice Guy


    I'm curious to learn what people's thoughts are on the semicolon. I've been trying my hand at a few stories and to be honest this is a part of grammar that leaves me on the fence. Sometimes I use them and think they work well; other times I wonder if I've used them properly, and if they are really necessary.

    I'm a fan of Kurt Vonnegut and he famously argued against using them saying that using them just shows you've been to college.

    I found a Guardian article and it features a lot of famous people arguing both for and against the punctuation mark:
    For

    Sometimes you get a glimpse of a semicolon coming, a few lines further on, and it is like climbing a steep path through woods and seeing a wooden bench just at a bend in the road ahead, a place where you can expect to sit for a moment, catching your breath.
    Lewis Thomas, late US physician and educator

    If the semicolon is one of the neglected children in the family of punctuation marks these days, told to stay in its room and entertain itself, because mummy and daddy are busy, the apostrophe is the abused victim.
    John Humphrys

    Sadly, anyone lazily looking for an excuse not to master the colon and semicolon can always locate a respectable reason, because so many are advanced. Here are some of the most common:

    1. They are old-fashioned.

    2. They are middle-class.

    3. They are optional.

    4. They are mysteriously connected to pausing.

    5. They are dangerously addictive ...

    6. The difference between them is too negligible to be grasped by the brain of man.
    Lynne Truss

    "I think it's extremely useful, but I was taught to use it. Not many people use it much any more, do they? Should it be used more? I think so, yes. A semicolon is a partial pause, a different way of pausing, without using a full stop. I use it all the time. All those ideas of punctuation - they've all changed, and I think it's a pity, because they were used extremely successfully in the past.
    Beryl Bainbridge

    I think it's a marvellous invention and I wouldn't do without it. Gertrude Stein always thought of commas - grammar of any kind - as subservient and we should never use it at all, which tells us a lot about her impenetrable style. I use them a lot, both in my fiction and in my journalism, because I think it makes an elegant pause. And if you use it well, if you understand it, I think it creates the right pause, the right possibility of a pause, in a sense, which in a world where everybody reads as fast as possible can be a very useful intervention, or hesitation.
    Jeanette Winterson

    I like them - they are a three-quarter beat to the half and full beats of commas and full stops. Prose has its own musicality, and the more notation the better. I like dashes, double-dashes, comashes and double comashes just as much. The colon is an umlaut waiting to jump; the colon dash is teasingly precipitous.
    Will Self

    I love a good semicolon, but this sounds like one of those Literature is Dead! stories that the New York Times likes to run. I've never heard from a reader confused by one of my semicolons, and I don't remember ever throwing a book aside for being semicolon-free.
    Jonathan Franzen

    I feel I don't understand them but am rather attached to them. I do not feel I have any rule that applies to when to put them in, and I've always been baffled by being edited by anybody who had a very strong idea about when to put them in. I put them in with breathing rhythms or a feeling that the meaning has slightly changed direction, and I want a stop as opposed to a pause.

    I would hate them to disappear. I write by rhythms, both the rhythm of the meaning and the rhythm of the - it's not exactly my spoken voice, it's the voice inside my head, and that needs a lot of different punctuation marks. At the other end of the scale, I use a lot of dashes, which people try to turn into more respectable things like commas and full stops and so forth. But I love semicolons and colons, and I love that idea of a colon followed by a dash when you're about to begin an argument, which has completely gone.
    AS Byatt

    I am addicted to the semicolon, though for years I didn't know how to deploy it and just wrote run-on sentences instead. The semi-colon is useful when you need a sentence to shift or surprise; to be modified or amended; it allows a generosity, lyricism and ambiguity to creep into the sentence structure. So, yes, it can also be the sign of a self-indulgent writer and should be used with care.
    Anne Enright

    You practically do not use semicolons at all. This is a symptom of mental defectiveness, probably induced by camp life.
    George Bernard Shaw to TE Lawrence, on the Seven Pillars of Wisdom

    I love it; it is useful for many things. My understanding is, it is correctly used to join two complete, but related sentences; this way, the reader feels the link, albeit subtly. I love it so much, in fact, that I am currently writing a story made up of only semi-colons; it is quite a challenge, but I believe in it very much.
    George Saunders


    Against

    No semicolons. Semicolons indicate relationships that only idiots need defined by punctuation. Besides, they are ugly.
    Richard Hugo, The Triggering Town: Lectures and Essays on Poetry and Writing

    If you really want to hurt your parents, and you don't have the nerve to be a homosexual, the least you can do is go into the arts. But do not use semicolons. They are transvestite hermaphrodites, standing for absolutely nothing. All they do is show you've been to college.
    Kurt Vonnegut

    I had decided about this time that the semicolon is an unnecessary stop and that I would write my next book without one.
    George Orwell, quoted in Lynne Truss's, Eats, Shoots & Leaves

    They are more powerful more imposing more pretentious than a comma but they are a comma all the same. They really have within them deeply within them fundamentally within them the comma nature.
    Gertrude Stein


    Undecided

    I use it. I've no feelings about it - it's just there. People actually get worked up about that kind of ****e, do they? I don't ****ing believe it. They should get a ****ing life or a proper job. They've got too much time on their hands, to think about nonsense.
    Irvine Welsh

    I like the idea of semicolons, but I generally find myself deleting them during the revision process and using commas, periods or colons instead. Part of the problem is that they don't show up well on a computer screen and if you're reading quickly, the sentences that use them look odd."
    Zoë Heller

    I always feel a little bit dubious about it, but I do use it. I somehow feel that one ought to manage without it. What I use it for is really as though I were reading aloud, for the pause which is like a comma only rather more so. The semicolon is, to me, a sort of extra-strong comma. I think of writing entirely in terms of its rhythm, and reading it aloud in one's head, and there are pauses longer than a comma indicates, and I think a semicolon does
    for that.
    Diana Athill

    http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2008/apr/04/france.britishidentity

    I've read some books where the author has a strong fondness for the semicolon, and I find it a bit distracting at times when reading since my eyes seem to look for where the next one comes in.

    I think that a full stop often offers a cleaner and more effective pause.

    With regards to creative writing, though, I'd worry that if I were to submit a story and not use a semicolon, that it might count against me. It's all well and good for George Orwell to decide not to use it but can an ordinary aspiring writer do this?

    Would you include a semicolon on a piece you've written? Are you in favour of it as a punctuation mark? Are you a bit unsure on when to use it?

    Thoughts and views welcome. :cool:

    What do you think of the semicolon in writing? 33 votes

    For
    0% 0 votes
    Against
    87% 29 votes
    Undecided
    12% 4 votes


Comments

  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Marcel Immense Pussycat


    Middle class? Correct grammar is "middle class"?
    Good lord


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    bluewolf wrote: »
    Middle class? Correct grammar is "middle class"?
    Good lord

    Might be wrong here but I think that was said as a satire of a snobbish statement. "Eugh, that semi-colon is for the middle-class plebs not for me! I'll use whatever punctuation marks I please."


  • Posts: 0 CMod ✭✭✭✭ Marcel Immense Pussycat


    I get jokes
    :(


  • Registered Users Posts: 91 ✭✭Gryphonboy


    I don't use them.

    Simply because I never went to college and my writing, beyond the fundamentals, is self taught.

    If I'm being honest I don't understand them.


  • Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭Phantasos


    Gryphonboy wrote: »
    I don't use them.

    Simply because I never went to college and my writing, beyond the fundamentals, is self taught.

    If I'm being honest I don't understand them.

    I'm the same, I'm not sure how to use them properly. My writing works well without it, so I'll leave well enough alone!


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 850 ✭✭✭nervous_twitch


    I think that a full stop often offers a cleaner and more effective pause.

    I think a full stop is more break than pause though, whereas semi-colon demonstrates the relationship between two (or more) clauses. It has a very particular function and effect, and when used well it can really animate expression.

    That said, I often note that writers who use semi-colons do so excessively. 'They are dangerously addictive.'


  • Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭Phantasos


    Oh; no; I can't ; seem to stop... ;;;;;;


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 850 ✭✭✭nervous_twitch


    Phantasos wrote: »
    Oh; no; I can't ; seem to stop... ;;;;;;

    Careful now. Virginia Woolf was a semi-colon fiend and look what happened her.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,183 ✭✭✭Antilles


    Sadly, anyone lazily looking for an excuse not to master the colon and semicolon can always locate a respectable reason, because so many are advanced. Here are some of the most common:

    1. They are old-fashioned.

    2. They are middle-class.

    3. They are optional.

    4. They are mysteriously connected to pausing.

    5. They are dangerously addictive ...

    6. The difference between them is too negligible to be grasped by the brain of man.
    Lynne Truss

    It's like she took my life and disguised it as a quote about semi-colons.


  • Closed Accounts Posts: 1,533 ✭✭✭the keen edge


    I think the semi-colon is a very useful tool for concise writing; although truth be told, I too am a little unsure of its correct use.

    I don't do much creative writing; however I do some scientific writing for college and I find them an excellent way of emphasizing contrasting features or characteristics.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 12,438 ✭✭✭✭El Guapo!


    Gryphonboy wrote: »
    If I'm being honest I don't understand them.

    Here you go:

    http://theoatmeal.com/comics/semicolon


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Brian Lighthouse


    The easiest way to remember how to use a semicolon is to ask yourself: "Will a comma confuse the meaning?"

    For example
    Peter`s ice-cream is fantastic; his coffee is rotten.

    That`s all you need really.

    Oh, and if you make a list of items of more than one word it is acceptable to separate these with a semicolon.

    For example
    In the car we brought Pat`s bread; Noel`s shoes; Mary`s hat and Billy`s coat.

    I like semicolons.

    PS
    Microsoft Word throws in a lot of semicolons in the incorrect place, so stick to the rule I described when MS Word is reviewing your document.

    For example
    ...when it came to pass, however, all went well.....

    MS Word will suggest
    ...when it came to pass; however, all went well.....

    You can ignore MS Word`s suggestion to insert a semicolon.


  • Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭Phantasos


    That looks fairly straightforward. I have to say though - the semicolons used in the list really irk me.

    Team comma!


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 628 ✭✭✭hcass


    I'm with Irvine Welsh on this. Get a f***ing life.


  • Moderators, Arts Moderators Posts: 35,576 Mod ✭✭✭✭pickarooney


    I sometimes wonder how short an attention span you need to have for the connection between successive sentences to be lost.


  • Registered Users Posts: 367 ✭✭Phantasos


    I sometimes wonder how short an attention span you need to have for the connection between successive sentences to be lost.

    I barely made it to the end of that sentence. 21 words? What is this, the essay forum?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 26,578 ✭✭✭✭Turtwig


    I sometimes wonder how short an attention span you need to have for the connection between successive sentences to be lost.

    Yeah, I


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 565 ✭✭✭thefasteriwalk


    The easiest way to remember how to use a semicolon is to ask yourself: "Will a comma confuse the meaning?"

    For example
    Peter`s ice-cream is fantastic; his coffee is rotten.

    That`s all you need really.

    Oh, and if you make a list of items of more than one word it is acceptable to separate these with a semicolon.

    For example
    In the car we brought Pat`s bread; Noel`s shoes; Mary`s hat and Billy`s coat.

    I like semicolons.

    PS
    Microsoft Word throws in a lot of semicolons in the incorrect place, so stick to the rule I described when MS Word is reviewing your document.

    For example
    ...when it came to pass, however, all went well.....

    MS Word will suggest
    ...when it came to pass; however, all went well.....

    You can ignore MS Word`s suggestion to insert a semicolon.

    I disagree. Because of the ellipsis, it's unclear whether the word 'however' is acting as a subordinate clause or a transitional phrase in the sentence you've used.

    If it's a subordinate clause then it's correct to use two commas. Ex: There are, however, many more planes I can get.

    If it's a transitional phrase then it's correct to use a semi-colon - it's separating two thoughts. Ex: I missed the plane; however, I still made the meeting.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 514 ✭✭✭Brian Lighthouse


    Hi Fasteriwalk,
    Thanks for going into more detail and giving us the advanced lesson so to speak. You know how to use a semicolon. You certainly don`t need my advice.
    I added the bit about MS Word simply because when a person doesn`t know how to use one, it is probably better to leave it out.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭ThePinkCage


    They join sentences, or parts of sentences, that are too weak to stand alone. They are far more elegant than dashes, which make sentences look dashed off, for want of a better word. Think Mr Vonnegut was guilty of reverse snobbery.


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  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 565 ✭✭✭thefasteriwalk


    They join sentences, or parts of sentences, that are too weak to stand alone. They are far more elegant than dashes, which make sentences look dashed off, for want of a better word. Think Mr Vonnegut was guilty of reverse snobbery.

    No way! As I see it, the desired effects of a semi-colon and a dash are very different. The semi-colon is all about clarification - it (usually) denotes nothing more than the relationship between clauses. It's entirely functional. I rarely use them myself, unless I'm composing a relatively formal, functional piece of writing. They're your conservative grandmother.

    The dash, on the other hand, implies emphasis (among other things). It's a really hard-working piece of punctuation, unlike the semi-colon. It's cool out the walls - much like Mr Vonnegut.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 78 ✭✭ThePinkCage


    It's a divisive little mark all right. The way I see it, you're either a dash person or a colon person. To me a dash is sloppy and implies afterthought, but you do make an eloquent case for it.


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 450 ✭✭Agent Weebley


    I voted "for" the semi-colon some time ago, but the other much under-rated and necessary "colon" also needs an oscopy, in my view, but hey, I don't start threads, so it's just a suggestion. (I did not contribute to this thread on voting - I had to dash at the time.)

    The reason I am resurrecting this thread now, is that I just came across something I wrote a while back, so I feel I should draw attention to this misunderstood punctuation mark, even though I may be risking a tongue lashing from thefasteriwalk in the process.

    I initially wrote at the end of this post on March 24: "Whats that, he whistling?" Then later, I edited it to read: "What's that; he's whistling?"

    I guess I could have written: "What's that he's whistling?" - but I wanted a pause for emphasis - wrongly choosing a comma in my zeal, but correcting it on reflection.

    In my view, if the second sentence is an extension of the first sentence, and it's not full of verbs, nouns and the like, it is weak, and needs to be joined to the first sentence with a semi-colon. If the sentence needs a break, such as in the last paragraph, a dash fits the bill, as a dash is more abrupt than a comma, period - or is it full stop?


  • Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 565 ✭✭✭thefasteriwalk


    I voted "for" the semi-colon some time ago, but the other much under-rated and necessary "colon" also needs an oscopy, in my view, but hey, I don't start threads, so it's just a suggestion. (I did not contribute to this thread on voting - I had to dash at the time.)

    The reason I am resurrecting this thread now, is that I just came across something I wrote a while back, so I feel I should draw attention to this misunderstood punctuation mark, even though I may be risking a tongue lashing from thefasteriwalk in the process.

    I initially wrote at the end of this post on March 24: "Whats that, he whistling?" Then later, I edited it to read: "What's that; he's whistling?"

    I guess I could have written: "What's that he's whistling?" - but I wanted a pause for emphasis - wrongly choosing a comma in my zeal, but correcting it on reflection.

    In my view, if the second sentence is an extension of the first sentence, and it's not full of verbs, nouns and the like, it is weak, and needs to be joined to the first sentence with a semi-colon. If the sentence needs a break, such as in the last paragraph, a dash fits the bill, as a dash is more abrupt than a comma, period - or is it full stop?

    Hmmmm. To be honest, I'm unconvinced. I would tend to stick to ellipsis, dashes and dialogue tags for emphasis. Maybe that's just me, though. I found myself having to read: "What's that; he's whistling? Is it Peter Gabriel?" several times to try and hear your voice, and I'm still not sure I understand what relationship you want the clauses to have.


  • Registered Users Posts: 1,676 ✭✭✭dr gonzo


    They join sentences, or parts of sentences, that are too weak to stand alone. They are far more elegant than dashes, which make sentences look dashed off, for want of a better word. Think Mr Vonnegut was guilty of reverse snobbery.
    It's a divisive little mark all right. The way I see it, you're either a dash person or a colon person. To me a dash is sloppy and implies afterthought, but you do make an eloquent case for it.

    I essentially came on to say the same. I like the semi-colon, however I cannot stand overuse of the double dash (i.e sentence -side point- sentence.). I know they dont do the same job but if we're discussing excessive and annoying punctuation I have to get this out. I'm reading a James Herbert book at the moment, which is alright, but the text is just riddled with mid-sentence double-dashes which looks incredibly sloppy and often makes for a confusing read.


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