Is Irish criticism of Israel anti-semetic?

hatrickpatrick · 30-04-2013 12:02PM

Sacksian wrote: »

If someone denies Israel the right to identify itself as a nation but permits others to do so ( e.g. Palestinians), I'd wonder why that is.
Many "Anti-Zionists" are only happy to condemn anti-semitism as long as Jews give up any desire to have a Jewish state. And I'm not sure that same logic would be applied as evenly to other nationalist movements.

Could I put it to you that some of us are perfectly happy for Israel to exist as a state, provided it stops expanding its border into lands owned and worked by people who do not accept rule by a foreign government?

KenSwee · 30-04-2013 12:36PM

The governments, secret services and military of Israel are responsible for the continuing hostility towards them. When they purge the individuals involved in those sections that continue to keep the hostile policies and make a genuine effort to solve conflict in and around their country, then I will respect the nation of Israel and acknowledge it's right to exist.
Until then, in it's current form, it is an apartheid rouge nation hiding behind democracy and has no rights in my opinion.
That's not anti-semantic and never will be.

KenSwee · 30-04-2013 12:41PM

speedboatchase wrote: »

There's bound to be some degree of Anti-Semitism among the extreme elements but that's to be expected. However, I don't buy the argument that all anti-Israel posters have simply got a problem with the govt and that's that. Maybe they don't hate Jews but they hate Israel itself, not just the govt. The people who protested when the Israeli women's football team came to play a football match in 2011 were a bunch of rude a**holes that see anything Israeli as an opportunity to pontificate.

The same thing happened to South African rugby sides in the 70s and 80s and nobody came to their defence; rightly so.

Blisterman · 30-04-2013 02:09PM

I don't see anyone protesting when China or Russia for example come to play, and they're equally if not more guilty of human rights abuses, and illegal occupation.

Yitzhak Rabin · 30-04-2013 03:18PM

Of course its not anti-Semitic to criticise the government or Defence Force of Israel. People who suggest that lose any bit of credibility they have, and are clearly not interested in having a reasoned debate. Its a cheap ploy to shut-down debate, as being called an anti-semite is one of the more reprehensible labels you can put on someone.

Now, that said, that is different to the argument where someone could question why there is a sizeable proportion of Ireland's left-wing elements, that are disproportionately interested in the affairs of Israel. Judging by the politics section of this site, you'd be forgiven for thinking its the only conflict going on in the world at the moment.

The conflict in Israel/Palestine is classified as a minor skirmish. There are far bloodier full out wars and insurgencies being fought the world over. The whole of North, and central Africa is practically in a constant state of conflict.
Russia has a decades long conflict going on in Chechnya, the list is incredibly long before you get down to the conflict in Israel.

I mean there were 12,000 civilian casualties in Burma last year!

Half a million people have died in the civil war in Somalia since 1991!

Then you have one of the more recent ones, such as the conflict which started in Mali last year. 3,500 people have died there. That should be of interest to Irish people given Ireland has a training team deployed there, yet it barely registers.

So, I can understand how Israelis might feel that there was a strange and disproportionate interest in their affairs from a lot of Irish people.

hatrickpatrick · 30-04-2013 03:21PM

Blisterman wrote: »

I don't see anyone protesting when China or Russia for example come to play, and they're equally if not more guilty of human rights abuses, and illegal occupation.

I have just as much opposition to them I must say, particularly China as I know more about that situation.
I would imagine however that Israel strikes a particular chord because unlike China or Russia, Israel's actions are publicly backed up and defended by many Western regimes including the US. Which means that on top of abuses, you have unbelievable double standards and hypocrisy.

Again I can't speak for anyone else, but nothing in this world pisses me off more than double standards. "It's ok for them to do it because they're on our side" is the most vile, disgusting and appalling political philosophy we have to put up with in the 21st century, and for governments such as the US to pontificate about crimes committed by their enemies while at the same time deliberately obstructing the rest of the world's attempts to penalize Israel's crimes strikes a raw nerve.

"We hold these truths to be self evident: That all men are created equal..." - apparently that should be amended to "We hold these truths to be self evident: that those we like have more rights than those we don't" - and that, in my opinion, is wrong on absolutely every possible level.

Ush1 · 30-04-2013 03:25PM

The problem I have with that region is there so much propaganda and counter propaganda on both sides, sometimes it's difficult to see the wood for the trees.

the_syco · 30-04-2013 03:55PM

Calling someone "anti-semitic" because they are critical of the state of Israel is like the Shinners calling people critical of SF "west-brits".

KenSwee · 30-04-2013 07:55PM

Blisterman wrote: »

I don't see anyone protesting when China or Russia for example come to play, and they're equally if not more guilty of human rights abuses, and illegal occupation.

I couldn't agree more, 100 million deaths under their flags.

KenSwee · 30-04-2013 08:10PM

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Of course its not anti-Semitic to criticise the government or Defence Force of Israel. People who suggest that lose any bit of credibility they have, and are clearly not interested in having a reasoned debate. Its a cheap ploy to shut-down debate, as being called an anti-semite is one of the more reprehensible labels you can put on someone.

Now, that said, that is different to the argument where someone could question why there is a sizeable proportion of Ireland's left-wing elements, that are disproportionately interested in the affairs of Israel. Judging by the politics section of this site, you'd be forgiven for thinking its the only conflict going on in the world at the moment.

The conflict in Israel/Palestine is classified as a minor skirmish. There are far bloodier full out wars and insurgencies being fought the world over. The whole of North, and central Africa is practically in a constant state of conflict.
Russia has a decades long conflict going on in Chechnya, the list is incredibly long before you get down to the conflict in Israel.

I mean there were 12,000 civilian casualties in Burma last year!

Half a million people have died in the civil war in Somalia since 1991!

Then you have one of the more recent ones, such as the conflict which started in Mali last year. 3,500 people have died there. That should be of interest to Irish people given Ireland has a training team deployed there, yet it barely registers.

So, I can understand how Israelis might feel that there was a strange and disproportionate interest in their affairs from a lot of Irish people.

Again, I totally agree. The regions and countries you mentioned have a lot to answer for and when you look at the extreme exposure for two deaths caused by a bomb in Boston, yes you are totally right, nobody cares about these people. In the same week I was receiving pictures of candles for two dead in Boston on Facebook, over 100 men, women and children were killed in bombs in Iraq. The lack of exposure is a direct result of the media but I also agree that the information is there for people to look at if they want to.
I think the reason so many criticize Israel is that they claim to be a democratic state but it is clear that they are not. They are an apartheid style state in constant state of war. It's like what another poster said, they live by double standards and that pisses a lot of people off. No effort whatsoever is given in attempt to at least get on on a sporting or social level with the their neighbors. They are a member of the EBU, UEFA and I'm sure plenty more non Middle East organizations. I've no doubt they would join the EU if they got a chance. What they are trying to do is insert a European colony in the Middle East.
They commit acts of murder, sabotage, assassinations, kidnapping, fraud and store weapons of mass destruction. All of these actions are not the action of a democratic country and for those reasons, that's why I think a lot of people are against the regime in Jerusalem.

Rezident · 30-04-2013 09:16PM

I'm sure some of it sadly is but a lot of it is to do with things like settlers.

Grayson · 30-04-2013 09:57PM

Whoever you support in that conflict, you're being anti semitic. The Semetic races are the arabs and jews. So if you dislike either you can be called anti semitic.

On my part, I have loads of israeli friends. No palestinian ones though. And I think the israeli government are cnuts. I believe israel has every right to secure its borders and defend itself. I don't believe it has the right to take land or lock the palestinians away in areas like the westbank or the Gaza strip. Gaza is becoming more and more reminiscent of the Warsaw and Lodz ghetto's.

Madam_X · 30-04-2013 10:04PM

Grayson wrote: »

Whoever you support in that conflict, you're being anti semitic. The Semetic races are the arabs and jews.

But you can support a side without disliking the people of the other side though.

Grayson · 30-04-2013 10:10PM

Madam_X wrote: »

But you can support a side without disliking the people of the other side though.

Most people can. like the way most people are in favor of womens rights but don't hate men. But there are always a few on the fringes who will identify a whole gender, race, culture etc... as the enemy.

And there will be those that will say because you support feminism, you're a man hater. Or because you support palestinians you are a jew hater.

feargale · 01-05-2013 12:43AM

Blisterman wrote: »

I don't see anyone protesting when China or Russia for example come to play, and they're equally if not more guilty of human rights abuses, and illegal occupation.

Let me see now. Russia and China have an appalling human rights record, with buckets of blood on many hands. Therefore we should shut up about Israel/Palestine. A bit of a cop out, don't you think? There is nothing to stop any poster from opening a thread on human rights abuses in Russia or China. I suspect that it would be a very short thread because few would dispute the existence of such abuses. Most would see it as stating the obvious and probably wouldn't bother to post. And, I suspect that unlike Israel's friends there would be very few apologists for Russian and Chinese tyranny. So could we keep this thread on topic please?

Blisterman · 01-05-2013 10:15AM

feargale wrote: »

Let me see now. Russia and China have an appalling human rights record, with buckets of blood on many hands. Therefore we should shut up about Israel/Palestine. A bit of a cop out, don't you think? There is nothing to stop any poster from opening a thread on human rights abuses in Russia or China. I suspect that it would be a very short thread because few would dispute the existence of such abuses. Most would see it as stating the obvious and probably wouldn't bother to post. And, I suspect that unlike Israel's friends there would be very few apologists for Russian and Chinese tyranny. So could we keep this thread on topic please?

I'm not saying that at all. I'm just pointing out the fact that Israel gets a disproportionate amount of protests against it, as it's somewhat of a fashionable cause, just like Apartheid was in the 80's.

Obviously a person has to pick their battles. You can't be an activist every cause in the world, and Israel is certainly a worthy one. I just feel that things such as boycotting the israeli football team (which has several arabs on it, so its not directly comparable to the springboks), has a whiff of bandwagon jumping.

01-05-2013 10:21AM

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

Of course its not anti-Semitic to criticise the government or Defence Force of Israel. People who suggest that lose any bit of credibility they have, and are clearly not interested in having a reasoned debate. Its a cheap ploy to shut-down debate, as being called an anti-semite is one of the more reprehensible labels you can put on someone.

Now, that said, that is different to the argument where someone could question why there is a sizeable proportion of Ireland's left-wing elements, that are disproportionately interested in the affairs of Israel. Judging by the politics section of this site, you'd be forgiven for thinking its the only conflict going on in the world at the moment.

The conflict in Israel/Palestine is classified as a minor skirmish. There are far bloodier full out wars and insurgencies being fought the world over. The whole of North, and central Africa is practically in a constant state of conflict.
Russia has a decades long conflict going on in Chechnya, the list is incredibly long before you get down to the conflict in Israel.

I mean there were 12,000 civilian casualties in Burma last year!

Half a million people have died in the civil war in Somalia since 1991!

Then you have one of the more recent ones, such as the conflict which started in Mali last year. 3,500 people have died there. That should be of interest to Irish people given Ireland has a training team deployed there, yet it barely registers.

So, I can understand how Israelis might feel that there was a strange and disproportionate interest in their affairs from a lot of Irish people.

I assume that the same logic follows the Americans and the rest of Europe being so interested but from the other direction? Or do people not mind so much when it's positive interest. (No need to answer that :pac: )

arybvtcw0eolkf · 01-05-2013 10:25AM

Online, no its rarely anti-semetic.. But in real life where people don't have to worry about being banned from internet discussion boards its (in my experience) very common.

hatrickpatrick · 01-05-2013 08:14PM

Blisterman wrote: »

I'm not saying that at all. I'm just pointing out the fact that Israel gets a disproportionate amount of protests against it, as it's somewhat of a fashionable cause, just like Apartheid was in the 80's.

Obviously a person has to pick their battles. You can't be an activist every cause in the world, and Israel is certainly a worthy one. I just feel that things such as boycotting the israeli football team (which has several arabs on it, so its not directly comparable to the springboks), has a whiff of bandwagon jumping.

As I said overleaf, China or Russia doesn't piss me off as much simply because the West doesn't defend or excuse their behavior while pretending to be all about peace and freedom.
I just can't stand the hypocrisy. Western governments should just come out and say it, "we don't care about anyone else, we only pretend to when it serves our own interests to do so".

hatrickpatrick · 01-05-2013 08:15PM

Kimora Orange Visitor wrote: »

Online, no its rarely anti-semetic.. But in real life where people don't have to worry about being banned from internet discussion boards its (in my experience) very common.

Example?

Sand · 01-05-2013 09:02PM

I think the unbalanced nature of Irish criticism of Israel, says more about the Irish than anything else, particularly the left. There is a tendency to consensus politics in Ireland and the consensus is that Israel is a uniquely evil state which must be singled out for specific criticism. In Ireland, anyone that goes against the consensus is picked out and targeted. The Irish tendency is to go with the flow, and if that's the flow, so be it - anything for a quiet life. What exactly is gained by addressing hysterical and venomous voices, other than becoming a target of their hatred?

Look at the experience of Irish band Dervish who became a target of concerted hatred - their crime? Planning to play a concert in Israel. After an avalanche of "anger and hatred" cancelling the tour was the easier option for them and their families.

@hatrickpatrick

Example?

Any example he gives will be anecdotal by its very nature - you'll still have to rely on his record of what was said and done. Either you accept his opinion for what its worth, or you don't.

feargale · 01-05-2013 10:27PM

Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »

The conflict in Israel/Palestine is classified as a minor skirmish.

I guess that means that the Northern Ireland conflict was the equivalent of an unruly picnic where a few bowsies messed with water pistols and flourbags

Toby Take a Bow · 01-05-2013 10:36PM

Sand wrote: »

I think the unbalanced nature of Irish criticism of Israel, says more about the Irish than anything else, particularly the left. There is a tendency to consensus politics in Ireland and the consensus is that Israel is a uniquely evil state which must be singled out for specific criticism. In Ireland, anyone that goes against the consensus is picked out and targeted. The Irish tendency is to go with the flow, and if that's the flow, so be it - anything for a quiet life. What exactly is gained by addressing hysterical and venomous voices, other than becoming a target of their hatred?

There isn't a consensus that Israel is a uniquely evil state, it's just that the articles written about Israel don't always mention that other atrocities are committed by other states in the world. It might make the articles excessively cumbersome and it's kind of common sense anyway.

As for Israel and Ireland, I think it's a conflict that people think they understand, whether they are 'pro' or 'anti' Israel. There are also the issues surrounding 'western' backing of Israel (previously mentioned in this thread) and the fact that we are considered a 'western' nation. And, I guess, a state that continually emphasises its democratic nature whilst committing acts that are anything but. I would think such 'unbalanced' criticism of America is largely due to something similar.

Herb Powell · 01-05-2013 10:51PM

hatrickpatrick wrote: »

Example?

They start banging on about Jewish domination conspiracies and other such shhite. Sometimes it's even more overt, i.e directly blaming the conflict on Jews being **** human beings. References to the Holocaust can also serve as a red flag that bull**** is about to be spewed.

wolfpawnat · 01-05-2013 11:05PM

I have never had an issue with Israel based on anything to do with the religion of those of the nation, since my criticisms are not based on the religion, no, I, and everyone else like me, is not anti-semetic. I would hold the same criticisms were they Muslim, Christian, Hindu, Harry Krishna's, Scientologist, etc, because my criticisms are based on their political strategies and methods. They are bullies with zero empathy for the neighbouring lands and their peoples. Everyone seems so frightened to say/do anything about them as they play the antisemitism card at the slightest criticism. They imply people are in line with the views of Nazi Germany for saying they are in the wrong on a political level when religion has nothing to do with it!

Anyone who sees criticism of that state politically as anti-semetism is an idiot feeding into propaganda!

laoch na mona · 02-05-2013 01:13PM

Herb Powell wrote: »

They start banging on about Jewish domination conspiracies and other such shhite. Sometimes it's even more overt, i.e directly blaming the conflict on Jews being **** human beings. References to the Holocaust can also serve as a red flag that bull**** is about to be spewed.

you must be unfortunate to meet the minority of lunatics most peoples problem is with human rights abuses and oppression of a sovereign nation

Grayson · 02-05-2013 01:24PM

feargale wrote: »

I guess that means that the Northern Ireland conflict was the equivalent of an unruly picnic where a few bowsies messed with water pistols and flourbags

To be fair, it is refered to as the Troubles.

And we did call World War II "the emergency"

Sand wrote: »

Look at the experience of Irish band Dervish who became a target of concerted hatred - their crime? Planning to play a concert in Israel. After an avalanche of "anger and hatred" cancelling the tour was the easier option for them and their families.

Putting pressure on Israel to come to a peaceful solution using a cultural blocade is a fair tactic.
The fecking conflict has been going on for years. There are two options.
1) put pressure on people to sit down at a table and do someything (Like stop building feck off big walls and settlements)
2) do nothing.

I'd prefer to see a band refusing to play rather than a suicide bomber. Cos it's far nicer.

Herb Powell wrote: »

They start banging on about Jewish domination conspiracies and other such shhite. Sometimes it's even more overt, i.e directly blaming the conflict on Jews being **** human beings. References to the Holocaust can also serve as a red flag that bull**** is about to be spewed.

Do you live in america? I've never encountered a single person like that. And Most of my friends would be anti israel politically. It's because of the injustice that's meted out to palestinians, not because of religion or anything like that.
The only place I've ever seen stuff like that is online. And even then only on far right wing sites or conspiracy forums.

Fromthetrees · 02-05-2013 03:00PM

Criticism of Israel is no more anti semitic than criticism of Islamic extremism is Islamaphobic. I think we've reached this insane position where you can be accused of either in a snap just to stifle opinion.

" Israel shouldn't have bulldozed those homes." - ANTI SEMITE!!!

" Hate preachers should be locked up." - ISLAMAPHOBE!!!

" Israel shouldn't have used white phosphorus gas on civilians." - ANTI SEMITE!!!

" Known terrorists should be deported." - ISLAMAPHOBE!!!

ruthloss · 02-05-2013 03:03PM

OneArt wrote: »

I wish people weren't so stupid.

Saying that criticism of Israel is anti-Semitic is like saying that criticism of Zimbabwe is racist.

My sentiments exactly., thank you.

Bannasidhe · 02-05-2013 03:08PM

Given that the harshest critics of Israel I ever heard were Jewish - some of them were Israeli - no, I don't think criticism of the State of Israel is, in and of itself, Anti-Semitic.

But the accusation is a handy way to try deflect that criticism.

Is Irish criticism of Israel anti-semetic?

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