Woman gets three-year suspended sentence for welfare fraud - Fair or...?

vicwatson · 30-04-2013 01:13PM #1

A 33-year-old woman, who admitted flying to and from Ireland to fraudulently claim €43,000 in social welfare payments, has received a three-year suspended prison sentence.

http://www.rte.ie/news/crime-and-legal/2013/0429/388546-social-welfare-cork/

ash23 · 30-04-2013 01:16PM

Seems fair enough.

She paid it back, co-operated with the gardai and is remorseful. No sense in throwing her in jail I think. She has her Masters and a decent enough future ahead of her. I'd give her the benefit of the doubt (a.k.a a suspended sentence).

Crooked Jack · 30-04-2013 01:17PM

vicwatson wrote: »

http://www.rte.ie/news/crime-and-legal/2013/0429/388546-social-welfare-cork/

We had a similar story in Newry earlier this week except the amount she had rung up was much higher. She also got off with a suspended sentence but on top of that none of the local papers are allowed to print anything about it because after she went to court she all of a sudden developed "suicidal tendencies" and her neighbours finding out what a scobey prick she is jsut might tip her over the edge.

Meanwhile, I saw a young guy who stole a pack of razors because he had a job interview and if he bought them he wouldnt have been able to afford the bus, get a £500 fine and lose the bloody job because of the press coverage.

Courts system in Ireland is a shambles

vicwatson · 30-04-2013 01:18PM

Poll added

drdeadlift · 30-04-2013 01:18PM

Its a ****ing suspended sentence

Fighting Irish · 30-04-2013 01:20PM

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A 33-year-old woman, who admitted flying to and from Ireland to fraudulently claim €43,000 in social welfare payments, has received a three-year suspended prison sentence.

Sibyl Montague, of Cois Coillte, Tivoli in Cork, had pleaded guilty to flying home once a month over a four-year period to sign on for jobseekers' allowance.

The court was told that she had repaid the money in full.

Judge Patrick J Moran said that when imposing a sentence he has to ask what benefit it would be.

He said that in this case he believed that the woman had learnt her lesson.

Earlier, Defence Counsel Siobhán Lankford told Cork Circuit Criminal Court that this was a case of grave dishonesty, but that it was an unusual case.

Her client was very remorseful and had co-operated fully when arrested by gardaí in October 2012.

She said the monies had been fully repaid and this had been at some cost.

The woman's mother had to sell some of her belongings, her father came up with some money, her cousin and two friends made up the rest.

She told the court that her client and her sister had been responsible for looking after their ill mother from an early age.

Her parents had separated when she was 12 years old.

Ms Lankford said Montague carried out the fraud while she was living in very poor circumstances in London, living from hand-to-mouth while studying for a Masters degree.

She said her client pleaded guilty as soon as possible, the gardaí were satisfied she would not reoffend and the DPP had been happy for the case to be dealt with at District Court level, but the judge there had refused jurisdiction.

Angron · 30-04-2013 01:20PM

I was going to say it's not fair that the sentence was suspended, but then reading that she did pay back the amount, and does seem to have learnt her lesson, it's reasonable enough.

Nodin · 30-04-2013 01:20PM

vicwatson wrote: »

Poll added

A gallows one, I presume.

Frank Black · 30-04-2013 01:21PM

Crooked Jack wrote: »

Meanwhile, I saw a young guy who stole a pack of razors because he had a job interview and if he bought them he wouldnt have been able to afford the bus, get a £500 fine and lose the bloody job because of the press coverage.

Courts system in Ireland is a shambles

So I guess your alternative proposal is to let off anyone who shoplifts as long as they come up with a good 'hard-luck' story, and stop the press from attending and reporting on all court proceedings.

Great work Einstein - can you be our next Minister for Justice and Communications rolled into one?

Marsden · 30-04-2013 01:21PM

Too lenient I think, if this was the way it worked all the time everybody might as well rob anything that's not nailed down. That way if you do get caught you can just hand it back and not be punished.

jam_mac_jam · 30-04-2013 01:21PM

No, its not fair, she stole a load of money. I would have given her a few months..

discus · 30-04-2013 01:24PM

Living it up abroad, living off our hard paid taxes. Should have had her liberty denied, if even for a bit.

Shenshen · 30-04-2013 01:27PM

She paid back the money. Where's the point in wasting that money and more on top to put her in jail?

Angron · 30-04-2013 01:27PM

discus wrote: »

Living it up abroad, living off our hard paid taxes. Should have had her liberty denied, if even for a bit.

Assuming the article is accurate, I'd hardly call "Living hand to mouth" living it up.

Crooked Jack · 30-04-2013 01:34PM

Frank Black wrote: »

So I guess your alternative proposal is to let off anyone who shoplifts as long as they come up with a good 'hard-luck' story, and stop the press from attending and reporting on all court proceedings.

Great work Einstein - can you be our next Minister for Justice and Communications rolled into one?

No, my alternative proposal is some consistency in sentencing, sentences that represent the seriousness of the actual crime and a bit of cop on from judges.
Im certainly not in favour of the press thing because that would put me out of a job and then id be the one stealing razors. To shave my back however, because I have a beard.

lau1247 · 30-04-2013 01:39PM

Shenshen wrote: »

She paid back the money. Where's the point in wasting that money and more on top to put her in jail?

crimes (even if it is relatively small in comparison with big ones) are not acceptable and should not be acceptable.

That's why the punishment is there to deter other people from trying to do the same thing.. otherwise everyone can cheat they way through fraud and when get caught, just give it back.. if don't get caught, get to keep it???

It is not about wasting money to put her in jail, it should be more about sending a message out that 'if you do the crime, you will do the time' when you get caught..

Lando Griffin · 30-04-2013 01:42PM

He said that in this case he believed that the woman had learnt her lesson.

She certainly did, she learnt so many lessons she now has a masters.

McDermotX · 30-04-2013 01:42PM

No. Its not right.

Suspended sentence is probably right, as the last thing we need is more prison space filled up at our additional cost. But she should certainly have been made put to work/community service etc in order to properly atone for her fraud.
Paying back the money (it says in full, not 'plan to pay back', which I assume means its all back and accounted for) and saying 'sorry' isn't enough IMO, and certainly doesn't suggest remorse. (Plus, am I wrong in assuming the money was only paid back when she was rumbled, or did the authorities only cop on when someone was sending them money ?)

It's not a bleedin' personal loan FFS.

Yakult · 30-04-2013 01:44PM

Why cant we make examples of people in cases like this? Surely the sentence (or lack of) will only encourage others. While a tougher sentence would have at least showed that they give a **** about welfare fraud.

Shenshen · 30-04-2013 01:45PM

lau1247 wrote: »

crimes (even if it is relatively small in comparison with big ones) are not acceptable and should not be acceptable.

That's why the punishment is there to deter other people from trying to do the same thing.. otherwise everyone can cheat they way through fraud and when get caught, just give it back.. if don't get caught, get to keep it???

It is not about wasting money to put her in jail, it should be more about sending a message out that 'if you do the crime, you will do the time' when you get caught..

Deterrence has been quite clearly shown to not be related to the severity of the punishment, but rather to the probability of getting caught.

In other words, you will not deter people from welfare fraud by imposing severe sentences. You will deter them if you are able to make them feel that it's very likely that they will get caught. And in that case, the simple threat of having to pay it all back would be quite enough in and off itself.

Don't waste money on putting people into jail, spend it instead on hiring people to find more welfare frauds and retrieve those funds.

yop · 30-04-2013 01:47PM

Bankers lost (Stole) a load of money and our politicians flitter (steal) our money day after day. Don't see them getting jail either.

vicwatson · 30-04-2013 01:49PM

Nodin wrote: »

A gallows one, I presume.

Reading it to find out would be the intelligent thing to do;)

newport2 · 30-04-2013 01:56PM

So the moral of the story is go ahead and fleece the state for what you can. Two outcomes

1 You don't get caught, you're in the money
2 You get caught. Say sorry and give it back.

So, you're set to gain say €40,000, worst possible scenario is give it back and "show" remorse. Lots of people will support you because you said sorry and our jails are full.

And we wonder why we get cute hoars in politics and other influential positions in Ireland.

discus · 30-04-2013 01:56PM

I'm presuming that this is her website?!

http://www.sibylmontague.com/

What the hell is this?!

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fllSm6xUlhY

Turns out she completed her MA in 2011, but was claiming dole while living in London 'til Oct 2012.

http://visualartists.ie/news/sibyl-montague-wins-wexford-emerging-visual-artist-award/

leonidas83 · 30-04-2013 02:04PM

yop wrote: »

Bankers lost (Stole) a load of money and our politicians flitter (steal) our money day after day. Don't see them getting jail either.

So two wrongs make a right, ridiculous post. When people stop using the bankers & politicians as excuses to take the piss themselves we might actually get somewhere with this crisis

becost · 30-04-2013 02:04PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but she still has a fraud/theft conviction that will damage future job prospects and limit international travel?

Rented Mule · 30-04-2013 02:07PM

Wait. She spent it on getting a Masters degree and not on coke and hookers ??

BURN HER !!!

elstingeo · 30-04-2013 02:08PM

She paid back all the money and was in a tough situation. All those factors from her childhood might possibly influence the case as she cared for her mam at a young age so maybe she developed some type of anxiety towards not being able to look after her own self.

Any one on here that has been a poor, broke student will know what it's like with little to no financial backing whatsoever. Although I'm not justifying the welfare fraud itself, it's somewhat understandable but in no way is it acceptable nor will it ever be. Hopefully she won't do it again.

lau1247 · 30-04-2013 02:08PM

Shenshen wrote: »

Deterrence has been quite clearly shown to not be related to the severity of the punishment, but rather to the probability of getting caught.

In other words, you will not deter people from welfare fraud by imposing severe sentences. You will deter them if you are able to make them feel that it's very likely that they will get caught. And in that case, the simple threat of having to pay it all back would be quite enough in and off itself.

Don't waste money on putting people into jail, spend it instead on hiring people to find more welfare frauds and retrieve those funds.

It is related not matter you like it or not!!

If the country set a strict law that you get lock up for 50 year for fraud (No excuses or suspended sentences) and if you get caught, do you think people will think twice before they begin to even contemplate to do it?? I would think that the severity would deter people from doing it in the first place. Granted I agree that there are odd balls out there that will still do it but it will stop a lot more from happening or re-occuring.

I stand with my original post, if you don't set punishment as example, people will still keep doing it again and again.. that's why jail is there in the first place..

Newport2 post basically sums up the situation if you don't set punishment to deter fraudster

newport2 wrote: »

So the moral of the story is go ahead and fleece the state for what you can. Two outcomes

1 You don't get caught, you're in the money
2 You get caught. Say sorry and give it back.

So, you're set to gain say €40,000, worst possible scenario is give it back and "show" remorse. Lots of people will support you because you said sorry and our jails are full.

And we wonder why we get cute hoars in politics and other influential positions in Ireland.

discus · 30-04-2013 02:13PM

elstingeo wrote: »

She paid back all the money and was in a tough situation. All those factors from her childhood might possibly influence the case as she cared for her mam at a young age so maybe she developed some type of anxiety towards not being able to look after her own self.

Any one on here that has been a poor, broke student will know what it's like with little to no financial backing whatsoever. Although I'm not justifying the welfare fraud itself, it's somewhat understandable but in no way is it acceptable nor will it ever be. Hopefully she won't do it again.

As you can see from the links I've posted above, not only did she have the gall to claim the dole illegally, she was spending it in another country while she was living in London. So if it's ok for her, is it ok for citizens of other european countries to claim dole and fly in to collect it once a month?

She chose to live in London. She chose to complete a masters and put herself in that financial position. Why should we fund it?

Son Of A Vidic · 30-04-2013 02:41PM

leonidas83 wrote: »

yop wrote: »

Bankers lost (Stole) a load of money and our politicians flitter (steal) our money day after day. Don't see them getting jail either.

So two wrongs make a right, ridiculous post. When people stop using the bankers & politicians as excuses to take the piss themselves we might actually get somewhere with this crisis

Ridiculous post you say? Was that a self-diagnosis of your own contribution? Because the rest of your post really suggests it was.

Woman gets three-year suspended sentence for welfare fraud - Fair or...?

A 3 year suspended sentence fair in this case? 177 votes

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