Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

um7y1h83ge06nx · 26-04-2013 11:31AM

It seems true that there are plenty of pro-life women.

The last time I went to mass (apart from Christmas) I mentioned to my mother afterwards that the demo-graph was incredibly ironic.

The biggest group by far at the mass were 60yr+ women. The biggest supporters of the church were the group that have been most wronged by the church. :rolleyes:

With the abortion issue you can see the same thing. Last week there was this anti-choice women trying to argue with a doctor on the subject. She was so f**king annoying I felt like punching her through the radio. A real moral high ground, full of authority, smugness and bullsh*t.

Also I don't think that banning abortion here is "anti-women", it's anti people. Us men have wives, girlfriends, sisters, daughters and female friends too.

It really does made me mad.

jaja321 · 26-04-2013 12:01PM

Morag wrote: »

Have any of ye who are insulted by whats being said about 6 drs contacted your TDs to tell them you are outraged?
http://www.abortionrightscampaign.ie/2013/04/26/contact-your-tds-labour-tds-receiving-very-little-pressure-on-the-issue-of-6-doctors/

Given how awful trying to legislate for the X Case 20 years on and even with the majority of people thinking we should have the right to an abortion in cases of rape, incest, fatal fetal abnormalities and risk to Health not just life, the majority of politicians don't seem to understand it's what the people want.

I really do urge everyone who agrees with the above to at least consider sign up for the abortion rights campaigns newsletter we have a long fight ahead of us.

Lucinda Creighton is in my constituency - I'm off to give her an earful.

newport2 · 26-04-2013 12:19PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

Besides, pro-choice men are more common from what I have seen these days than pro-life men and women. So I would see them as adding to the pro-choice numbers in a referendum. Do you think a 60 odd year old single farmer from the country would care about a referedum that would not affect him, probably not, but not allowing a 23 year old guy who is pro-choice vote would hinder the cause, surely?

Interesting point and probably true. However, I know a couple of men who would be pro-life/anti-choice, but if ever asked by any women what they are would immediately say pro-choice.

I'm pro-choice myself, but if I wasn't I'd be careful which female friends, family etc I'd say that to. I know some would take offence if I said I was anti-choice, but nobody would if I said pro-choice - even people who didn't agree. It's a very sensitive subject, saying you're pro-choice may be an easy way of sitting on the fence/avoiding conflict for some. In a ballot box they might speak differently.

LittleBook · 26-04-2013 12:24PM

Macha wrote: »

True. I think a lot of us would be really disappointed if we know how many women would vote against more liberal abortion laws. Opinions on this issue are divided moreso along generational lines than gender lines, Lucinda Creighton notwithstanding.

I think along socio-economic lines too. I was thinking about the cost of travelling for an abortion on the "keep it legal, keep it safe" thread and it occurred to me that it's a lot easier to abstain or vote against abortion in Ireland if you're comfortable in the knowledge that, should the worst come to the worst, you and yours have options and hang those who don't.

Clarehobo · 26-04-2013 01:43PM

Macha wrote: »

Yes, I think you're right that women are more divided. One of the messages women receive very strongly in our society is that our main role is as child bearers and mothers (and sexual objects).

For some women it's obviously difficult to comprehend the idea that some women don't want to be mothers, or that they only want to be able to control their fertility, eg they want 3 children, not 4 or they want a child in their 30s not in their 20s. Here is where I think a lot of the "responsibility" type arguments come in.

My other suspicion is around attitudes to sex. Some of us think sex isn't just for procreation while some people clearly do. Hence you get suggestions that people should stop having sex if they don't want babies as if it's some sort of credible solution to unwanted pregnancies.

Edit: and both ideas are of course insulting to adult women.

I agree with all your points above.

These people are the same ones who would have complained back in the day when contraception was made available to all us jezebels who engaged in sex for pleasure.

Some of these people also occupy positions of power which enable them to deny women the medical procedure of getting their tubes tied. They are under the impression that women don't understand the enormity of the decision and should not have any power over their own reproductive rights.
The "Ah sure women are scatter brains - sure we all know all they want is to have babies and sure they don't understand what they are asking for" type of attitude.

I was chatting away to my beautician one day. Lovely girl, mid thirties, has 3 kids and is being denied the right to choose to stop at 3 kids by these people. Their argument? "You're still young."

As a woman of 32, I have spent long enough on this planet to know my own mind. I have never wanted children and will not ever want children. Why should I be denied the right to modify my own personal anatomy in order to ensure that I don't have to face the tough road of having an abortion if contraception fails?

We need less women in politics of the ilk of Creighton and more along the lines of Mary Robinson, who fought for our right to purchase contraception and gain some control of our reproductive systems.

kylith · 26-04-2013 01:59PM

Clarehobo wrote: »

I agree with all your points above.

These people are the same ones who would have complained back in the day when contraception was made available to all us jezebels who engaged in sex for pleasure.

Some of these people also occupy positions of power which enable them to deny women the medical procedure of getting their tubes tied. They are under the impression that women don't understand the enormity of the decision and should not have any power over their own reproductive rights.
The "Ah sure women are scatter brains - sure we all know all they want is to have babies and sure they don't understand what they are asking for" type of attitude.

I was chatting away to my beautician one day. Lovely girl, mid thirties, has 3 kids and is being denied the right to choose to stop at 3 kids by these people. Their argument? "You're still young."

As a woman of 32, I have spent long enough on this planet to know my own mind. I have never wanted children and will not ever want children. Why should I be denied the right to modify my own personal anatomy in order to ensure that I don't have to face the tough road of having an abortion if contraception fails?

We need less women in politics of the ilk of Creighton and more along the lines of Mary Robinson, who fought for our right to purchase contraception and gain some control of our reproductive systems.

In fairness, they do the whole "Are you sure? Are you sure you're sure? Sure you might meet a nice lassie and change your mind" thing to men getting vasectomies, or so I've heard.

The 'you might change your mind' argument is even more ridiculous when you take into account the fact that these days you can store your gametes, just in case you do change your mind at some point.

Clarehobo · 26-04-2013 02:39PM

kylith wrote: »

In fairness, they do the whole "Are you sure? Are you sure you're sure? Sure you might meet a nice lassie and change your mind" thing to men getting vasectomies, or so I've heard.

The 'you might change your mind' argument is even more ridiculous when you take into account the fact that these days you can store your gametes, just in case you do change your mind at some point.

Exactly! Why can't adults be trusted to make their own minds up? Not everyone wants to go forth and multiply.

This woman had 3 children and was finished having children but was denied the procedure because she was young(mid-thirties). She was extremely annoyed because she knew that she could potentially get caught out well into her forties.
And as a woman, every time she has sex she has the potential to get pregnant - no contraceptive is 100% effective.
These same people who denied her the procedure will be the same ones to object to an abortion if she does get caught out.

gcgirl · 26-04-2013 03:11PM

Clarehobo wrote: »

Exactly! Why can't adults be trusted to make their own minds up? Not everyone wants to go forth and multiply.

This woman had 3 children and was finished having children but was denied the procedure because she was young(mid-thirties). She was extremely annoyed because she knew that she could potentially get caught out well into her forties.
And as a woman, every time she has sex she has the potential to get pregnant - no contraceptive is 100% effective.
These same people who denied her the procedure will be the same ones to object to an abortion if she does get caught out.

Plus a million

I was fortunate enough after my last to get tubal ligation 3rd csection and I was 30 not quite 31 when it was done where as a friend who had popped out her 6th kid asked for it (different hospital ) was refused with in 2 Years she had to pop over to Liverpool

Kooli · 26-04-2013 03:19PM

I have emailed all my representatives (unfortunately that includes Lucinda Creighton) and would really encourage everyone else to do so too.

I genuinely believe the mad pro-lifers (anti-choicers) are a small minority but they are such a vocal and powerful one, and they get a completely disproportionate amount of airtime in the media and they have completely disproportionate influence over decision makers.

There is so much anger out there, rightly so, from the pro-choice side and we need to make sure it's being heard. There's no point just venting to other like-minded people, we have to let our TD's know. That includes the ones who are on our side (they need to know they have our support) as well as the FG mentallers (who need to know that they are not representing us).

Faith · 26-04-2013 04:06PM

I emailed all mine (Cork South Central) on Wednesday and so far have just gotten an acknowledgement from Jerry Buttimer. It was non-committal and vague, but in fairness at least he replied. He's the only one of 5 who replies when I email.

Kooli · 26-04-2013 04:15PM

Clarehobo wrote: »

These same people who denied her the procedure will be the same ones to object to an abortion if she does get caught out.

Exactly.

Anyone who is pro-life who doesn't put the same energy into preventing unwanted pregnancies as they do in trying to prevent abortions just shows up their own hypocrisy and misogyny.

Just like those who are anti-abortion 'apart from cases of rape or incest'. So...abortion's suddenly not murder anymore if the woman is an 'innocent victim'? That it's really about punishing floozies who happen to enjoy sex outside of it's intended purpose?

lilmissprincess · 26-04-2013 04:39PM

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/04/26/if-she-cant-do-it-maybe-she-should-decide-to-retire/ .... ugh.

Macha · 26-04-2013 05:28PM

lilmissprincess wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/04/26/if-she-cant-do-it-maybe-she-should-decide-to-retire/ .... ugh.

It just gets worse and worse.

lazygal · 26-04-2013 05:38PM

As one comment said, if he can't do his job and legislate for referendum results maybe he should resign. I know who I'd trust, given the option of the eminently qualified Dr Mahony and a former accountant with rosary beads.

username123 · 26-04-2013 05:44PM

lazygal wrote: »

As one comment said, if he can't do his job and legislate for referendum results maybe he should resign. I know who I'd trust, given the option of the eminently qualified Dr Mahony and a former accountant with rosary beads.

This (not your post, what you are posting on) is why I have become so angry and unlikely to ready articles about the abortion debate. I just get angrier and angrier that people in public positions of power, elected by the tax payer, salaries paid by the tax payer, get away with such misogyny.

gcgirl · 26-04-2013 05:50PM

lilmissprincess wrote: »

http://www.broadsheet.ie/2013/04/26/if-she-cant-do-it-maybe-she-should-decide-to-retire/ .... ugh.

If that doesn't make you angry I don't know what Will

charlemont · 26-04-2013 05:51PM

username123 wrote: »

This (not your post, what you are posting on) is why I have become so angry and unlikely to ready articles about the abortion debate. I just get angrier and angrier that people in public positions of power, elected by the tax payer, salaries paid by the tax payer, get away with such misogyny.

Unfortunately its the way of this country to complicate, confuse and generally make a haems out of anything to do with sexuality. The same things the rest of Western Europe sorted out decades ago.

wolfpawnat · 26-04-2013 09:10PM

Anastasia Tinkling Sheriff wrote: »

The last time I went to mass (apart from Christmas) I mentioned to my mother afterwards that the demo-graph was incredibly ironic.

The biggest group by far at the mass were 60yr+ women. The biggest supporters of the church were the group that have been most wronged by the church. :rolleyes:

And these are the ones who will happily go to the ballot box and vote no to choice. I remember one woman's excuse one day shocked me to the core "We had to suffer back in the day, you job was to have as many (children) as possible, why should these young ones have it any easier" So in her eyes, she suffered, so all women must suffer!!!! :eek: I nearly fainted.

YumCha · 27-04-2013 10:38AM

Sorry if I'm repeating things that have already been covered, but I'm so ragey right now...

I'm not from Ireland (and I do love living here), but after learning about the Magdalene Laundries, Symphysiotomy survivors, having seen the kerfuffle over making the morning after pill available over the counter and now this I'm just furious... I can't shake this feeling that we're being treated like "silly women" who can't be trusted to make decisions for ourselves.

Also just saw this (snippets below):

wrote:

"A CROSS-PARTY GROUP of pro-life politicians has written to every member of the Oireachtas, telling them it is almost inevitable that legislation for abortion – even in limited circumstances – will lead to a dramatic increase in the number of abortions."

"The politicians – including four TDs and two senators from Fine Gael, three senators from Fianna Fáil, one independent TD, one member of the SDLP and two from the DUP – said their visit had led them to conclude that any legislation for abortion would, in effect, allow for a much more liberal abortion regime."

"The trip was paid for by the pro-choice lobby group Family & Life...."

--Laws will make abortion ‘pervasive’ in Ireland: Warning from pro-life TDs - The Journal

How is this even possible? Granted, my understanding of Irish politics isn't great, but I thought that TDs were meant to represent their constituency? How on earth are they allowed to accept a fully funded trip from a totally biased anti-choice lobby group related to legislation they're voting on? ('research' my arse) Why are groups from outside Ireland being allowed to so blatantly sway the decision-making of Irish politicians? arrrrggghhhh

(Sorry if points are not exactly correct, I'm just THAT angry right now)

Macha · 27-04-2013 06:02PM

Delegates have just voted at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis on four abortion-related motions, including these two:

'That this Ard Fheis adopts a policy requiring a constitutional referendum before any legislation is introduced to permit abortion/termination on the grounds of risk of suicide as envisaged in the Supreme Court decision outlined in the X case.'

- Galway East CDC

'That this Ard Fheis proposes that this Party opposes the introduction of any legislation which introduces the “risk of suicide” as a threat to life of the mother and legitimises abortion in Ireland.'

- Galway East CDC. Related motion: Donegal North East Ógra

All four were passed almost unanimously.

FouxDaFaFa · 27-04-2013 08:06PM

I get angry every time I say this but I am a constituent of Sen. Healy-Eames. When I heard about this "research trip" she was going on I couldn't believe it.

The irony that they would implore us not to be swayed into introducing abortion because of another country's example or pressure from other countries while basing their argument on the experience of another country. (Not even a country, a state. If I hear "But...California" one more time I'm going to lose my sh1t).
I wish they would have stayed there learning the "truth" with Family and Life. They'd serve us better if they didn't show up.

Sorry for being a bit ranty but the level of US involvement in Irish affairs is getting ridiculous.

Pouring money into Irish pro-life groups to stifle opposition, side-stepping Irish law by cold-calling thousands of Irish people from the States telling them what to think about Savita Hallapanavar's death, paying for members of goverment to have a holiday at your expense.

It's at the very, very edge of being illegal and they know it.

Morag · 27-04-2013 08:17PM

Macha wrote: »

Delegates have just voted at the Fianna Fáil Ard Fheis on four abortion-related motions, including these two:

'That this Ard Fheis adopts a policy requiring a constitutional referendum before any legislation is introduced to permit abortion/termination on the grounds of risk of suicide as envisaged in the Supreme Court decision outlined in the X case.'

- Galway East CDC

'That this Ard Fheis proposes that this Party opposes the introduction of any legislation which introduces the “risk of suicide” as a threat to life of the mother and legitimises abortion in Ireland.'

- Galway East CDC. Related motion: Donegal North East Ógra

All four were passed almost unanimously.

So pretty much they have voted to abandon democracy, they want to ignore the supreme court and 2 referendums.

I don't see why anyone would consider voting for a party or a member of a politcal party which works do ignore or undermine our democratic process.

clairefontaine · 27-04-2013 09:26PM

YumCha wrote: »

Sorry if I'm repeating things that have already been covered, but I'm so ragey right now...

I'm not from Ireland (and I do love living here), but after learning about the Magdalene Laundries, Symphysiotomy survivors, having seen the kerfuffle over making the morning after pill available over the counter and now this I'm just furious... I can't shake this feeling that we're being treated like "silly women" who can't be trusted to make decisions for ourselves.

Also just saw this (snippets below):

How is this even possible? Granted, my understanding of Irish politics isn't great, but I thought that TDs were meant to represent their constituency? How on earth are they allowed to accept a fully funded trip from a totally biased anti-choice lobby group related to legislation they're voting on? ('research' my arse) Why are groups from outside Ireland being allowed to so blatantly sway the decision-making of Irish politicians? arrrrggghhhh

(Sorry if points are not exactly correct, I'm just THAT angry right now)

I'm confused. Your quotation says it was paid for by a pro choice group but then you say it was paid for by an anti choice group.

FouxDaFaFa · 27-04-2013 09:31PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I'm confused. Your quotation says it was paid for by a pro choice group but then you say it was paid for by an anti choice group.

It's a typo. Not sure why they haven't fixed it yet. Family and Life.

wonderfulname · 27-04-2013 09:38PM

clairefontaine wrote: »

I'm confused. Your quotation says it was paid for by a pro choice group but then you say it was paid for by an anti choice group.

The article has been ammended to say pro life.

kat.mac · 28-04-2013 01:24PM

wolfpawnat wrote: »

I remember one woman's excuse one day shocked me to the core "We had to suffer back in the day, you job was to have as many (children) as possible, why should these young ones have it any easier" So in her eyes, she suffered, so all women must suffer!!!! :eek: I nearly fainted.

Jesus. How do we get past that mentality?

I very rarely feel despair, but I do right now.

wolfpawnat · 28-04-2013 02:59PM

kat.mac wrote: »

Jesus. How do we get past that mentality?

I very rarely feel despair, but I do right now.

I know this sounds bad, but is it wrong for me to figuratively pray that this ideology dies with that generation?

I mean even people who argue the "when does life begin" argument use science to back their different statements. But the idea of "oh well, we had to do it" just disgusts me. My nan had 14 children, 14!!!!! In modern society that is nearly seen as reckless.

clairefontaine · 28-04-2013 03:02PM

kat.mac wrote: »

Jesus. How do we get past that mentality?

I very rarely feel despair, but I do right now.

It's not uncommon in human nature to find that the least compassionate for one particular sufferring are those who also sufferred it.

fits · 28-04-2013 04:50PM

To be honest, I'm sort of opposed to this suicide/abortion legislation. I think its ridiculous. It should be the womans choice and not be questioned. Fully legalised to 12 weeks.

Morag · 28-04-2013 05:12PM

They are bring forced to legislate for the X case ruling by the EU other wise they would ignore it, even with the majority of people thinking there should be more rights then that.

Does anyone feel insulted by the abortion proposals?

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