Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

Eponymous · 24-04-2013 09:30AM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

If there are strikes, the cost to the state will be more than financial. Bitter divides will open up all through communities. For example, at our school parents and teachers normally get on very well, but if Mrs X has to take days off work to mind her son during a teachers strike that will deteriorate rapidly.

I saw a graphic example of the cause of this tension in a newspaper cartoon recently - a teachers picket line with placards like "can't afford another cent", an irate parent drives past in a '99 banger while the strikers 2010 cars are neatly parked close by.

In a cartoon you say... It must be fact so.

StewartGriffin · 24-04-2013 09:41AM

Eponymous wrote: »

In a cartoon you say... It must be fact so.

Your reading skills are dazzling me

vinylbomb · 24-04-2013 11:21AM

StewartGriffin wrote: »

a teachers picket line with placards like "can't afford another cent", an irate parent drives past in a '99 banger while the strikers 2010 cars are neatly parked close by.

The only person I know who has bought a brand new car in the past 3 years (and they have bought two) is a teacher. Not to mention her month abroad with her child each summer.

vinylbomb · 24-04-2013 11:24AM

But for the sake of clarity, let me say this - I know not all teachers are getting paid particularly well, but the difficulty is that the poorly paid are protecting the very well paid in this case. IE retirees that are rehired etc etc. The whole primary and secondary sector needs reform, but the people who would most benefit from reform are blocking it to save their better paid peers.

The nose is being cut off to spite the face.

barneystinson · 24-04-2013 01:32PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

Howlin instigates CP II tweeking to commence to try and get SIPTU over the line and Jack O'Connor off the sticky wicket.

Well Minister, let me tell you, the CPSU will not be party to any such grubby deal...

Really? You speak for all CPSU members?!

Strange that they do ballots about issues so, when all they need to do is ask you... :rolleyes:

sean200 · 24-04-2013 02:36PM

And Enda is off on a run again
How did this idiot become leader of this country??
http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/taoiseach-no-agreement-no-job-protection-592313.html

sean200 · 24-04-2013 02:37PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

Howlin instigates CP II tweeking to commence to try and get SIPTU over the line and Jack O'Connor off the sticky wicket.

Well Minister, let me tell you, the CPSU will not be party to any such grubby deal...

a tweeking will not change the 97% of nurses who voted no

Godge · 24-04-2013 02:37PM

vinylbomb wrote: »

The only person I know who has bought a brand new car in the past 3 years (and they have bought two) is a teacher. Not to mention her month abroad with her child each summer.

The only person I know who has bought a brand new car in the past 3 years is someone from the private sector now claiming the dole and doing nixers.

I mean, what does your experience have to say about it, if you produced something from a car sales company, it might be believable.

Looking at the figures, 95,000 new cars were sold in Ireland in 2012 so the average teacher bought 1.5 cars last year if you are right.

Godge · 24-04-2013 02:43PM

Tea drinker wrote: »

Hmm sbp says PS layoff payoffs cost 2 billion past 5 years, so we might be a while waiting for an actual cost reduction.

Jack here reckons all your promissory note savings belong to PS.:

Mr O’Connor called for the wealthy to pay higher taxes, for a cap of €100,000 on all public sector pensions and for the government to use the savings from the promissory notes deal to avoid pay cuts.

Of course the layoffs cost money, pensions were paid, but the numbers went down because people were laid off so the total cost went down.

For example, pay going down by 5 billion while pension goes up by 2 billion is a saving of 3 billion. If you only report on the 2 billion you are only telling a bit of the story.

Larbre34 · 24-04-2013 02:44PM

barneystinson wrote: »

Really? You speak for all CPSU members?!

Strange that they do ballots about issues so, when all they need to do is ask you... :rolleyes:

A CPSU executive member told me they hoped SIPTU and IMPACT would carry the deal and were quite horrified when it didnt happen

Many many agendas at play here. However this much is clear, the ordinary union members now know that the Govt have not got the courage of their convictions, and regardless of the wishes of the union executives even if they get an improved proposal, it will be voted down even more strongly by the ordinary members because the momentum is with them to overcome the threats.

The ordinary members now have no problem with the prospect of crippling services for a few days or weeks if it came to strike action, the bigger picture is far more important to them as they line they draw in the sand now could define the next 10 years of industrial relations......

sharper · 24-04-2013 02:57PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

The ordinary members now have no problem with the prospect of crippling services for a few days or weeks if it came to strike action, the bigger picture is far more important to them as they line they draw in the sand now could define the next 10 years of industrial relations......

In order for strikes to be effective you need one of three things to happen:

1. The IMF/EU to be willing to hand over the money to fund the public service.

2. The bond markets be willing to hand over the money to fund the public service.

3. The money be found elsewhere to fund the public service.

Which of the 3 are you expecting and why? Alternatively what outcome not on the list are you expecting and why?

sean200 · 24-04-2013 03:12PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

A CPSU executive member told me they hoped SIPTU and IMPACT would carry the deal and were quite horrified when it didnt happen

Many many agendas at play here. However this much is clear, the ordinary union members now know that the Govt have not got the courage of their convictions, and regardless of the wishes of the union executives even if they get an improved proposal, it will be voted down even more strongly by the ordinary members because the momentum is with them to overcome the threats.

The ordinary members now have no problem with the prospect of crippling services for a few days or weeks if it came to strike action, the bigger picture is far more important to them as they line they draw in the sand now could define the next 10 years of industrial relations......

Yes it is the members of the union that is saying no and not the leaders of union who have being in bed with the governments for the last 20 years
Sure Jack thinks he is a minister

spank_inferno · 24-04-2013 03:14PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

Many many agendas at play here. However this much is clear, the ordinary union members now know that the Govt have not got the courage of their convictions, and regardless of the wishes of the union executives even if they get an improved proposal, it will be voted down even more strongly by the ordinary members because the momentum is with them to overcome the threats.

The ordinary members now have no problem with the prospect of crippling services for a few days or weeks if it came to strike action, the bigger picture is far more important to them as they line they draw in the sand now could define the next 10 years of industrial relations......

You are probably right, they called the governments bluff and won.

BTW, have you heard the views of any extraordinary union members?? :pac:

Godge · 24-04-2013 03:17PM

sharper wrote: »

In order for strikes to be effective you need one of three things to happen:

1. The IMF/EU to be willing to hand over the money to fund the public service.

2. The bond markets be willing to hand over the money to fund the public service.

3. The money be found elsewhere to fund the public service.

Which of the 3 are you expecting and why? Alternatively what outcome not on the list are you expecting and why?

1. The CPSU target passport office and revenue, no income comes in.
2. IMPACT target motor tax offices, no income comes in, similar action in other revenue-raising offices. As only a minority of staff involved, cost of strike pay are minimised
3. Teachers refuse to do voluntary supervision, schools are closed but teachers get paid as still available for work
4. Gardai refuse to issue fixed fines
5. Hospital staff refuse to do elective procedures

I could go on, the net point is that the unions don't need to cripple their finances to cripple the revenue-raising capability of the government and bring the country to its knees. When you realise this you have very few choices:

(a) Call the union's bluff
(b) Repeat Lockout 1913, 100 years later
(c) Find a negotiated solution

It looks like the government is going with (c), they have backed down with the unions calling their bluff. Hard to see how the government will get its €300m though.

As for where the money is going to come from, how about a 3% increase in the USC for those earning over €100,000?

Larbre34 · 24-04-2013 03:20PM

sharper wrote: »

In order for strikes to be effective you need one of three things to happen:

1. The IMF/EU to be willing to hand over the money to fund the public service.

2. The bond markets be willing to hand over the money to fund the public service.

3. The money be found elsewhere to fund the public service.

Which of the 3 are you expecting and why? Alternatively what outcome not on the list are you expecting and why?

1. Irrelevant by the end of the year as we exit the bailout. Germany aside, there is a serious momentum in Europe to take the boot off the throat of those most affected by austerity, i.e. low to middle income working people, or in other terms, the people who spend and are the root of any economy.

Policy shifts will obviate the harsh targets we are currently under as we transition back to the markets.

2. The bond markets have shown in the intervening 5 years that they are realistic. They are more favourable to countries that show the potential for growth and normal activity than to those who strain under the prohibitive imposed austerity. I expect them to look at the bigger picture, and its not for bond markets to dictate or even care particularly about policy decisions that swing a few hundred million euros one way or the other so long as the national focus is on growth and activity. Also, the bond issuers and the ratings agencies have never been further apart in their thinking

3. Both the Croke Park II proposals and the notion of a 7% across the board cut are ham fisted approaches. If the government and particularly the Dept of PE&R cared about real change and reform they would be undertaking far more forensic rationalisation and efficiency within the public sector than they are.

One simple thing they havent begun to address is the unification of the grade structure to allow for widespread mobility. Another is a serious analysis of the justification for the activities and existence of various departments and bodies. There isnt the political will to do the latter because they need to pander to the parish pump, however those two tasks together could save far more in the long run than the CP II or a straight cut, by being able to continue the recruitment moratorium for the most part, and gaining from further natural wastage. If they want the thing mean and lean, they are going the wrong way about it.

How can anyone take seriously a government that preaches a 7% cut to save €300m per annum, when 7% would actually get them nearly €1 billion and 2.5% gross savings on pay and pensions are all they actually need. They dont even know where they need to be themselves!

sharper · 24-04-2013 03:23PM

Godge wrote: »

As for where the money is going to come from, how about a 3% increase in the USC for those earning over €100,000?

Is it your position the deficit can be closed without reducing the public sector pay bill any further?

sean200 · 24-04-2013 03:23PM

Godge wrote: »

1. The CPSU target passport office and revenue, no income comes in.
2. IMPACT target motor tax offices, no income comes in, similar action in other revenue-raising offices. As only a minority of staff involved, cost of strike pay are minimised
3. Teachers refuse to do voluntary supervision, schools are closed but teachers get paid as still available for work
4. Gardai refuse to issue fixed fines
5. Hospital staff refuse to do elective procedures

I could go on, the net point is that the unions don't need to cripple their finances to cripple the revenue-raising capability of the government and bring the country to its knees. When you realise this you have very few choices:

(a) Call the union's bluff
(b) Repeat Lockout 1913, 100 years later
(c) Find a negotiated solution

It looks like the government is going with (c), they have backed down with the unions calling their bluff. Hard to see how the government will get its €300m though.

As for where the money is going to come from, how about a 3% increase in the USC for those earning over €100,000?

Now now we dont need to go there
But the government are on the run so every Irish person should keep pressure on them and show them that we are not going to keep taking cuts so bond holders can be paid

vinylbomb · 24-04-2013 03:29PM

sean200 wrote: »

Now now we dont need to go there
But the government are on the run so every Irish person should keep pressure on them and show them that we are not going to keep taking cuts

You do realise that this means higher taxes on everyone. EVERYONE.
Possibly a dole cut too, as unpalatable as that seems to be. That's where the money will come from.

spank_inferno · 24-04-2013 03:46PM

vinylbomb wrote: »

You do realise

No.... I'm not sure they do.

sharper · 24-04-2013 03:49PM

Larbre34 wrote: »

1. Irrelevant by the end of the year as we exit the bailout. Germany aside, there is a serious momentum in Europe to take the boot off the throat of those most affected by austerity, i.e. low to middle income working people, or in other terms, the people who spend and are the root of any economy.

Germany aside, who do you think is going to pay for it?

Godge · 24-04-2013 04:44PM

sharper wrote: »

Is it your position the deficit can be closed without reducing the public sector pay bill any further?

Yes, undoubtedly, through a mixture of taxes, social welfare cuts and cuts to meaningless grants to all sorts.

Public sector pay and pensions is coming down this year anyway because there are less lump sums to pay out. Once the reduced employment targets are met, there will be sufficient saved from the PS paybill.

carpejugulum · 24-04-2013 05:30PM

Godge wrote: »

there will be sufficient saved from the PS paybill.

Nope.
The deficit is still huge.

hmmm · 24-04-2013 05:47PM

sean200 wrote: »

show them that we are not going to keep taking cuts so bond holders can be paid

How much of our deficit is caused by repayments to bond holders?

I'll save you looking it up - almost none. Most cuts are because we are still spending too much running this country than we take in through tax.

hmmm · 24-04-2013 05:49PM

Godge wrote: »

Yes, undoubtedly, through a mixture of taxes

People pay enough taxes these days - particularly anyone with any shred of ambition who earns enough to pay higher rate.

If the PS won't reform my solution is simple - outsource as much as possible.

ardmacha · 24-04-2013 06:09PM

If the PS won't reform my solution is simple - outsource as much as possible.

How do you know they won't? They haven't been asked! The present process has no concern whatsoever for reform.

Tea drinker · 24-04-2013 06:34PM

hmmm wrote: »

People pay enough taxes these days - particularly anyone with any shred of ambition who earns enough to pay higher rate.

If the PS won't reform my solution is simple - outsource as much as possible.

We've already been down this road, PS workers were let go on big packages and many were hired back as consultants. That's a type of outsourcing isn't it?
2 billion spent on these packages alone in past 5 years.
Besides, the savings on the promissory note, those savings belong to PS, not to Ireland inc. , at least according to Jack O Connor.
=> no need for cuts!

I'm afraid we'll have to cut the frontline services like hospitals, garda, education much more to balance the budget. If we can't afford the services they should be taken away.

tayto lover · 24-04-2013 06:47PM

Every Public Sector worker should be contacting their Union to say "no talks".
The Govt and some of their Union cronies are just trying to soft-soap them.
You will suffer if you go down that road. You will be sold out.

ardmacha · 24-04-2013 07:18PM

We've already been down this road, PS workers were let go on big packages and many were hired back as consultants. That's a type of outsourcing isn't it?
2 billion spent on these packages alone in past 5 years.

Perhaps you better reference a source for this figure for "packages" , being careful not to count pension payments that were going to happen in any case.

rodento · 24-04-2013 07:23PM

hmmm wrote: »

People pay enough taxes these days - particularly anyone with any shred of ambition who earns enough to pay higher rate.

If the PS won't reform my solution is simple - outsource as much as possible.

Joan Burton has agreed to investigate claims that waste collection workers in Dun Laoghaire Rathdown in Dublin have been let go and been replaced by interns.

http://www.kildare-nationalist.ie/2013/04/24/abuse-of-job-bridge-internship-scheme-will-lead-to-ban/

So your solution is to fund a company that will doing it cheaply, with employee's who work for free:eek:

woodoo · 24-04-2013 07:30PM

Godge wrote: »

As for where the money is going to come from, how about a 3% increase in the USC for those earning over €100,000?

Or a levy on the Semi State workers.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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