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Is it not time that Hospital staff did Jail Time for their errors?

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    #2
    brandon_flowers
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,657 ✭✭✭brandon_flowers


    Jail...... that'll fix the healthcare system in this country.


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    #3
    Corkbah
    Registered Users Posts: 1,668 ✭✭✭Corkbah


    isn't that a different way of saying the HSE is in need of reform ?


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    #4
    VinLieger
    Registered Users Posts: 17,775 ✭✭✭✭VinLieger


    LOL really? The only thing it would cause is for anyone involved in healthcare to be ever more hesitant as far as treatment goes for fear of prison time


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    #5
    FR85
    Registered Users Posts: 483 ✭✭FR85


    What about the banks? If we took that mentality half the country would be in prison costing the country millions per year keeping them inside......

    For that matter, what about two thirds of the government...........


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    #6
    BillyMitchel
    Registered Users Posts: 3,324 ✭✭✭BillyMitchel


    Stop listening to Joe Duffy ye big oul one!


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    #7
    Mr. CooL ICE
    Registered Users Posts: 17,523 ✭✭✭✭Mr. CooL ICE


    If the traffic corpse garda fail to stop every speeding driver that ends up in a fatal crash, should we jail them too?


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    #8
    Viper_JB
    Registered Users Posts: 1,260 ✭✭✭Viper_JB


    Not many jobs that would result in you going to jail for making a mistake, I know it's peoples lives....but mistakes happen and I'm sure those responsible don't need jail time to compound their guilt, they're not dangerous people and they don't need to be locked away - maybe fired if very serious...


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    #9
    ballsymchugh
    Registered Users Posts: 7,936 ✭✭✭ballsymchugh


    i demand prison sentences for those whose threads backfire!


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    #10
    stoneill
    Registered Users Posts: 3,610 ✭✭✭stoneill


    We don't have jails - we have prisons.
    And no - that's not the answer.


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    #11
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    vicwatson wrote: »
    Excuses excuses always.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/14m-for-girl-8-as-hospital-admits-injuries-shouldnt-have-happened-29217563.html

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/hospital-apologises-after-death-of-tenmonth-old-baby-kaiden-29217036.html

    Seems as if all they have to do is say sorry and that's it - scott free

    This happens all too often.

    Mistakes are made in every profession, all over the world. Ireland is ahead of others when it comes to accepting liability etc.

    If people are faced with the threat of jail time for making mistakes then they'd be far less likely to make crucial decisions at crucial times; and that would cost lives too.


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    #12
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Can we deal with the fact most of them are overworked, overtired and underfed first? I mean as much as their wage slips say they are only working 12 hours, some doctors do not get only work those hours and they can hardly be at the top of their game if this is the case, ergo more mistakes are likely to occur.


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    #13
    My name is URL
    Registered Users Posts: 25,068 ✭✭✭✭My name is URL


    LordChessington wrote: »
    If the traffic corpse garda fail to stop every speeding driver that ends up in a fatal crash, should we jail them too?

    If the Garda is a corpse they have more important things to be worrying about than jail


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    #14
    smellslikeshoes
    Registered Users Posts: 3,354 ✭✭✭smellslikeshoes


    Don't they say that it's always only a matter of time before a doctor makes a mistake that kills a patient? Healthcare would crumble because they would all be in jail.


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    #15
    endacl
    Registered Users Posts: 22,252 ✭✭✭✭endacl


    Errare humanum est...


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    #16
    godwin
    Registered Users Posts: 393 ✭✭godwin


    LordChessington wrote: »
    If the traffic corpse garda fail to stop every speeding driver that ends up in a fatal crash, should we jail them too?

    That analogy would make sense in this case if the Garda worked on the vehicle and failed to fit brakes or removed the brakes by accident.


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    #17
    orestes
    Closed Accounts Posts: 9,972 ✭✭✭orestes


    Medical staff are already scared sh1tless about getting sued and losing their careers if they make a mistake, if we start locking them up them up every time they make a mistake we're gonna have none left pretty quickly because they will be too afraid to even practice medicine. Accidents happen. I don't mean that to sound insensitive to the people who's lives are affected by them, but it's an unfortunate fact. Yes, everything should be done to minimise the chances of them happening and to prevent the same mistakes being made again, but there is a big difference between criminal negligence and making a mistake.

    Each case should be taken on a case by case basis, and those responsible for mistakes should be held accountable, but sending people to jail for making a single mistake in a career filled with constant high pressure situations where theirs is the final judgement call is hysterically over-reactionary (again, cases of criminal negligence are different).


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    #18
    af_thefragile
    Registered Users Posts: 7,171 ✭✭✭af_thefragile


    The baby died because of the extremely inefficient way the HSE functions.
    If anyone needs to go to jail, it should be the people who run the HSE.


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    #19
    kippy
    Registered Users Posts: 18,468 ✭✭✭✭kippy


    vicwatson wrote: »
    Excuses excuses always.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/14m-for-girl-8-as-hospital-admits-injuries-shouldnt-have-happened-29217563.html

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/hospital-apologises-after-death-of-tenmonth-old-baby-kaiden-29217036.html

    Seems as if all they have to do is say sorry and that's it - scott free

    This happens all too often.

    In all fairness, (and I haven't read either of the links) some of the medical profession work some of the craziest hours imaginable that very few other professions work.
    When you think that their job can involve literally life and death and the ability to make complex decisions at short notice, as well as perfrom some "ropey" procedures yet some of them work 24 hours straight you've got to expect mistakes to be made.

    Unfortunately in EVERY job, people make mistakes, irradicating those mistakes can often be complex but in some jobs making a mistake doesn't actually kill anyone.

    Suggesting jail time is over the top in my opinion UNLESS a CRIMINAL event occured.


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    #20
    positron
    Registered Users Posts: 6,302 ✭✭✭positron


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Can we deal with the fact most of them are overworked, overtired and underfed first?

    This is not going to be a popular opinion but here goes : You can get thousands of people to happily take up an excel at these "overworked, underpaid, underfed" jobs as you put it, if the government and HSE were to recruit from outside the country.


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    #21
    goose2005
    Registered Users Posts: 4,798 ✭✭✭goose2005


    Reading the details you find:
    Failure to thrive was diagnosed but an MRI scan which diagnosed a brain tumour was not carried out until June 24 of that year.

    Had the tumour been diagnosed at an earlier stage, it was claimed Kaiden could have availed of therapy leading to his survival.
    What's your solution to prevent things like this happening? Send thousands of patients for unnecessary MRIs in case one of them has something? Because that's what doctors will do if you put the fear of god into them - result, MRI queues get even longer, people die
    It was claimed the HSE failed to have properly trained competent medical staff to deal with the delivery and and failed to ensure there were competent obstetricians available to effect a delivery.
    So that sounds like it was a bureaucratic failure / lack of resources issue, rather than incompetence or arrogance.
    positron wrote:
    You can get thousands of people to happily take up an excel at these "overworked, underpaid, underfed" jobs as you put it, if the government and HSE were to recruit from outside the country.
    They already do. And I'm sure you'd be the first to complain if you couldn't understand your doctor's accent.


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    #22
    Knasher
    Registered Users Posts: 2,370 ✭✭✭Knasher


    positron wrote: »
    You can get thousands of people to happily take up an excel at these "overworked, underpaid, underfed" jobs as you put it, if the [...] HSE were to recruit from outside the country.
    The HSE does recruit from outside the country.


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    #23
    positron
    Registered Users Posts: 6,302 ✭✭✭positron


    goose2005 wrote: »
    They already do. And I'm sure you'd be the first to complain if you couldn't understand your doctor's accent.

    I doubt that very much, I have a foreign accent myself. :)
    Knasher wrote: »
    The HSE does recruit from outside the country.

    Yep they do - but they can get a lot more people for their money if they want to, but may have various rules, policies or regulations standing in their way. I am not saying those policies are bad, I am just saying it's actually possible to find more workers if they really want to.


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    #24
    Syllabus
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 573 ✭✭✭Syllabus


    vicwatson wrote: »
    Excuses excuses always.

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/14m-for-girl-8-as-hospital-admits-injuries-shouldnt-have-happened-29217563.html

    http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/hospital-apologises-after-death-of-tenmonth-old-baby-kaiden-29217036.html

    Seems as if all they have to do is say sorry and that's it - scott free

    This happens all too often.


    What do you do for a living?


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    #25
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    positron wrote: »
    This is not going to be a popular opinion but here goes : You can get thousands of people to happily take up an excel at these "overworked, underpaid, underfed" jobs as you put it, if the government and HSE were to recruit from outside the country.

    I said overtired, overworked and underfed, nothing about underpaid, ,although I do believe a doctor should be paid for hours worked, regardless of their race. Have you been to an Irish hospital? They are filled with foreign trained staff of all ethnicity.

    What I am saying is if you want to have a productive and high quality work force, they need to have proper breaks and a good nights sleep. Not 24 hour shifts and one break in that time. Less mistakes then, and as a result less chance of deaths occurring. Regardless of a persons ethnic background and race, they will make mistakes if tired and hungry. We all do!


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    #26
    positron
    Registered Users Posts: 6,302 ✭✭✭positron


    Cheers - I agree with you actually. I too think the 24 hour shift system is counterproductive.


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    #27
    o1s1n
    Registered Users Posts: 34,602 ✭✭✭✭o1s1n
    Master of the Universe


    You'd want to be some kind of superman to do your job 100% correct 100% of the time.

    Unless the problem is due to gross negligence or willful neglect then prison time should never be on the cards.


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    #28
    bleg
    Registered Users Posts: 5,848 ✭✭✭bleg


    My name is URL wrote: »
    Mistakes are made in every profession, all over the world. Ireland is ahead of others when it comes to accepting liability etc.

    If people are faced with the threat of jail time for making mistakes then they'd be far less likely to make crucial decisions at crucial times; and that would cost lives too.



    Then you could jail them for not making the crucial decision. :pac::pac::pac:


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    #29
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Can we deal with the fact most of them are overworked, overtired and underfed first?

    One of the reasons for this is that the supply of doctors is kept deliberately low - professional unions block increasing the number of available slots for medical training.

    Low supply > high demand > $$$.


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    #30
    wolfpawnat
    Registered Users Posts: 6,124 ✭✭✭wolfpawnat


    Chuck Stone wrote: »
    One of the reasons for this is that the supply of doctors is kept deliberately low - professional unions block increasing the number of available slots for medical training.

    Low supply > high demand > $$$.

    Under the European Working Hours Directive, they are forced to be paid, I think it is 48 (correct me if I am wrong) hours and yet they are forced to work longer. I know a few doctors where this is a case and in my work placement for nursing, I saw it first hand!


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    #31
    Chuck Stone
    Closed Accounts Posts: 13,030 ✭✭✭✭Chuck Stone


    wolfpawnat wrote: »
    Under the European Working Hours Directive, they are forced to be paid, I think it is 48 (correct me if I am wrong) hours and yet they are forced to work longer. I know a few doctors where this is a case and in my work placement for nursing, I saw it first hand!

    I'm not disagreeing with that - I was just pointing out that the number of doctors qualifying is kept deliberately low by professional unions and that this low supply probably contributes to the work load.


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