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Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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Comments

  • #3512
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    Uriel. wrote: »
    €300m hmmm ok. God that doesn't seem like a huge amount in one way, particularly if there are a multitude of approaches.

    New Government for the Autumn?

    Considering little old broke ireland is handing over €678 million in overseas aid.


  • #3513
    Icepick
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,456 ✭✭✭Icepick


    woodoo wrote: »
    Considering little old broke ireland is handing over €678 million in overseas aid.
    1, It's less and and it's only about 1% of the budget.
    2, This is an obvious red herring.


  • #3514
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    Nurses, Gardaí, low paid Civil Servants, Teachers united today to give a loud and clear message to governemnt. We will not be your convenient scapegoats. We have taken enough pain and say no more...:)


  • #3515
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,002 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    mkdon05 wrote: »
    If the arsehol3s stopped basing their budget around stupid growth predictions, that might be legitimate.

    Well, IMF, European Commission, anyone really who forecast in 2010 would not have seen their predictions come to fruition.

    The DoF is generally more optimistic.
    Godge wrote: »
    You miss the point. CP1 is an AGREEMENT. Therefore that clause must be invoked by AGREEMENT. Show me where the unions agree that this clause has been suitably invoked.

    If there is no agreement, then the dispute resolution procedures come into play.

    If you and the government are so sure that the clause is valid and that the budgetary position has detrioriated so badly as to necessitate the invoking of this clause, why are you so afraid of a third party judging that?

    I don't think your reading of it is correct at all to be honest.

    You are arguing about semantics anyway, would the Government be successful in convincing a third party in your opinion? I think it is crystal clear.

    If the original agreement needs modifying (and an extra year of a new agreement added) because we the numbers have changed then this is the more important point for me.

    Independent TD, Joe Higgins said SIPTU's rejection reflected a view that we had come to the end of austerity.

    From RTE.

    I mean, this is the type of lunacy we have to put up with. What on earth is the option other than austerity?


  • #3516
    Uriel.
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 8,059 ✭✭✭Uriel.


    noodler wrote: »

    From RTE.

    I mean, this is the type of lunacy we have to put up with. What on earth is the option other than austerity?

    Didn't an IMF official or former one at least recently state that we had gone overboard (paraphrasing) with austerity?

    When is this €6b growth /development package being launched.

    We have done so little to promote and foster growth to be honest.

    Ps I have not one second for Higgins or any of his other socialist and far left cohorts.


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  • #3517
    _Kaiser_
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 29,739 ✭✭✭✭_Kaiser_


    Icepick wrote: »
    1, It's less and and it's only about 1% of the budget.
    2, This is an obvious red herring.

    If it's €100 it's still too much for a country that is supposedly broke and has to borrow to break-even while simultaneously squeezing those who can least afford it.

    Charity begins at home and we have more than enough genuine cases that need that help/support first.


  • #3518
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    Brian Hayes is bottling the 7% paycut now. Bluff called. Back of the net :D


  • #3519
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,076 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    Brian Hayes is bottling the 7% paycut now. Bluff called. Back of the net :D

    Certainly didn't get that from him on Primetime. Quite the opposite in fact.


  • #3520
    sean200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭sean200


    The public sector were being bullied and they stood up and said no
    An employer should never get away with bullying an employee and siptu were part of that bullying
    every puplic sector worker should leave siptu tonight
    yes there maybe cuts but not by bullying


  • #3521
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    road_high wrote: »
    Certainly didn't get that from him on Primetime. Quite the opposite in fact.

    He's waffling away but no threat of a 7% cut.


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  • #3522
    sean200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭sean200


    road_high wrote: »
    Certainly didn't get that from him on Primetime. Quite the opposite in fact.

    He look like he is narckered or having to good of a time out there
    he has back off from a direct cut to quote him
    He said the gov said they need 7% paybill cut but they never said a direct paycut
    croke park 3 is about to start


  • #3523
    road_high
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 20,076 ✭✭✭✭road_high


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    He's waffling away but no threat of a 7% cut.

    The savings will have to be made was/is his bottom line. Read into that what you may.


  • #3524
    sean200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭sean200


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    He's waffling away but no threat of a 7% cut.

    That is all FG do is waffling


  • #3525
    mobby
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,187 ✭✭✭mobby


    sean200 wrote: »
    That is all FG do is waffling

    That's all any of them do.


  • #3526
    mot leave
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1 ✭mot leave


    Funny listening to millionaire Pat suggesting ways of finding cuts with the help of millionaire Eddie, mind you the gent next to Eddie wasn't playing ball and will be dismissed for the rest of the programme.
    By the way I'm not a civil servant but what happened to Enda's crusade to abolish the Seanad, now that was a way that a lot of money could be saved. I'm not in favour of abolishing the Seanad but a scaled down Dail/Seanad/less councillors would save the money that Brendan needs
    I notice Pat smiled when he thought Eddie was getting the better of Mr Dolan(can't remember his first name) smile turned to a grimace Eddie lost.


  • #3527
    sean200
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 152 ✭✭sean200


    mot leave wrote: »
    Funny listening to millionaire Pat suggesting ways of finding cuts with the help of millionaire Eddie, mind you the gent next to Eddie wasn't playing ball and will be dismissed for the rest of the programme.
    By the way I'm not a civil servant but what happened to Enda's crusade to abolish the Seanad, now that was a way that a lot of money could be saved. I'm not in favour of abolishing the Seanad but a scaled down Dail/Seanad/less councillors would save the money that Brendan needs
    I notice Pat smiled when he thought Eddie was getting the better of Mr Dolan(can't remember his first name) smile turned to a grimace Eddie lost.

    Eddie took the bate the idiot about tax great to a fool take the bate and go on a rant
    Felt sorry for the woman that could not get a person to take a chef job but he would take it if it was for cash
    He must be a former private sector worker that needs to be kicked off the dole and there are thosands more of them


  • #3528
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,002 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Uriel. wrote: »
    Didn't an IMF official or former one at least recently state that we had gone overboard (paraphrasing) with austerity?

    When is this €6b growth /development package being launched.

    We have done so little to promote and foster growth to be honest.

    Ps I have not one second for Higgins or any of his other socialist and far left cohorts.

    Going overboard with austerity implies we could have taken it easier. We have been running deficits for 5 years now and will do so for another 3 at least. How can that be considered going overboard? Without official EU/IMF funding we'd have had to balance the books almost immediately in 2011.

    I honestly don't think this Government can do anything substantial to foster growth.

    Spending whats in the NPRF (the 6bn you referred to) will probably take years and until we see the details of what that money will be spent on - then I wouldn't be very optimistic that it would be spent well.


    sean200 wrote: »
    The public sector were being bullied and they stood up and said no
    An employer should never get away with bullying an employee and siptu were part of that bullying
    every puplic sector worker should leave siptu tonight
    yes there maybe cuts but not by bullying

    How on earth is the public sector being bullied?


  • #3529
    joebloggs32
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,748 ✭✭✭joebloggs32


    Icepick wrote: »
    1, It's less and and it's only about 1% of the budget.
    2, This is an obvious red herring.

    Irish aid budget 2012 was €639 million, which is far more than 1% but more like 2%.
    That is not too say we should cut it all bit there is room there for something to be cut. Based as a % of GNP we are way ahead of many western nations in this regard.


  • #3530
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,002 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    joebloggs32 wrote: »
    Irish aid budget 2012 was €639 million, which is far more than 1% but more like 2%.
    That is not too say we should cut it all bit there is room there for something to be cut. Based as a % of GNP we are way ahead of many western nations in this regard.

    I'll never really understand this logic either.

    Stop providing food, water and other very basic human infrastructure because times are tough here?

    Its really like comparing night and day. I for one am glad our aid budget hasn't fallen as much as in other countries.


  • #3531
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    .



    I don't think your reading of it is correct at all to be honest.

    You are arguing about semantics anyway, would the Government be successful in convincing a third party in your opinion? I think it is crystal clear.

    If the original agreement needs modifying (and an extra year of a new agreement added) because we the numbers have changed then this is the more important point for me.





    Yes, but you still miss my point, not only does the government have to show that the situation has deteriorated, it would also have to show the third party that the only way to solve the problem is to cut PS pay.

    That is patently not true. There are many other options. Halve the aid budget saving €300m and double or triple the property tax to get the rest.

    We would still be above average in aid donation and below average in property taxes.

    That is why the government is afraid to put its arguments before a third party.


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  • #3532
    Dreamertime
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 425 ✭✭Dreamertime


    noodler wrote: »



    How on earth is the public sector being bullied?

    Howlin and the IMPACT/SIPTU cabal openly threatened us with a 7% paycut if we rejected CP II.

    A threat they're bottling to follow up on I may add...:D


  • #3533
    noodler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 28,002 ✭✭✭✭noodler


    Godge wrote: »
    Yes, but you still miss my point, not only does the government have to show that the situation has deteriorated, it would also have to show the third party that the only way to solve the problem is to cut PS pay.

    That is patently not true. There are many other options. Halve the aid budget saving €300m and double or triple the property tax to get the rest.

    We would still be above average in aid donation and below average in property taxes.

    That is why the government is afraid to put its arguments before a third party.

    No, you are talking crap there I am afraid.

    Theres been over 12bn worth of budgetary measures implemented since 2010 - this is double what what envisaged in March 2010.

    Not one penny of this was related to public sector pay...so clearly, almost every other area has been hit - quite the opposite in fact as increments worth 250m per year (750m in total) have been paid during this period.

    Dreamertime wrote: »
    Howlin and the IMPACT/SIPTU cabal openly threatened us with a 7% paycut if we rejected CP II.

    A threat they're bottling to follow up on I may add...:D

    300m gap for the year now. Listening to members of the opposition who will never have a hope of Government telling people there are magic bullets is just fantasy.


  • #3534
    2moreMinutes
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,003 ✭✭✭2moreMinutes


    Dreamertime wrote: »
    Howlin and the IMPACT/SIPTU cabal openly threatened us with a 7% paycut if we rejected CP II.

    A threat they're bottling to follow up on I may add...:D
    Just because they're not going gung ho tonight doesn't mean they're bottling it. The savings will be found one way or the other for this year. Seems like a lot of union members are in for a shock if they think voting no meant there's not gonna be cuts.


  • #3535
    tayto lover
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2, Paid Member Posts: 55,759 ✭✭✭✭tayto lover


    2moreMinutes wrote: »
    Just because they're not going gung ho tonight doesn't mean they're bottling it. The savings will be found one way or the other for this year. Seems like a lot of union members are in for a shock if they think voting no meant there's not gonna be cuts.

    Howlin has previously said there was no plan B but today he tried his best to dodge the issue. If he puts it to a vote of his party he will lose the party i'd say and he knows that. Plus he'd have strikes and work to rules all over the ship.

    Watch him come back with something much milder to try and save face.


  • #3536
    woodoo
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,219 ✭✭✭woodoo


    noodler wrote: »
    No, you are talking crap there I am afraid.

    Theres been over 12bn worth of budgetary measures implemented since 2010 - this is double what what envisaged in March 2010.

    Not one penny of this was related to public sector pay...so clearly, almost every other area has been hit - quite the opposite in fact as increments worth 250m per year (750m in total) have been paid during this period..

    Why do you pick 2010 have you an agenda? How do your figures pan out if you go back to 2009 or 2008??


  • #3537
    sock puppet
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 4,586 ✭✭✭sock puppet


    Godge wrote: »
    Yes, but you still miss my point, not only does the government have to show that the situation has deteriorated, it would also have to show the third party that the only way to solve the problem is to cut PS pay.

    That is patently not true. There are many other options. Halve the aid budget saving €300m and double or triple the property tax to get the rest.

    We would still be above average in aid donation and below average in property taxes.

    That is why the government is afraid to put its arguments before a third party.

    If we halved aid donation we'd be down near the bottom of the OECD, though at a similar level to the other bailout countries.


  • #3538
    slickmcvic
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 500 ✭✭✭slickmcvic


    noodler wrote: »
    How on earth is the public sector being bullied?

    They were bullied into negotiating a deal that wasn't due to expire for another year/18 months.

    They were bullied into "talks" where basically no dialogue took place and a list of unacceptable demands were issued for the negotiators to put to their respective unions.

    They were bullied by threats of imminent 7% pay cuts taking place while the voting process was underway.


    The process was a joke


  • #3539
    spank_inferno
    Closed Accounts Posts: 3,884 ✭✭✭spank_inferno


    slickmcvic wrote: »
    The process was a joke

    It was a joke.

    Why was there a negotiation in the first place?

    The boss is broke.... he can't sustain the levels of pay.

    Take it or leave it... (but of course... no one would ever leave).


  • #3540
    skafish
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 392 ✭✭skafish


    tayto lover wrote: »
    Now watch Fine Gael sit back and watch Labour commit hari kari.
    It could lead to a huge split in Labour in the near future and their eventual downfall and Fine Gael having to call a General Election in the hope of getting an overall majority themselves.
    Interesting times ahead.
    Great to see workers standing up for themselves at last.


    I hate to say itold you so, but...........


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  • #3541
    Godge
    Closed Accounts Posts: 21,727 ✭✭✭✭Godge


    noodler wrote: »
    No, you are talking crap there I am afraid.

    Theres been over 12bn worth of budgetary measures implemented since 2010 - this is double what what envisaged in March 2010.

    Not one penny of this was related to public sector pay...so clearly, almost every other area has been hit - quite the opposite in fact as increments worth 250m per year (750m in total) have been paid during this period.
    .


    12bn since 2010? none of it on public sector pay? Are you having a laugh? Notice you didn't mention pensions.

    Please demonstrate to me how the budget deficit has gone down by 12bn since 2010 and none of it due to public sector pay. And in doing so, leave out the bank recapitalisation costs which were extremely high in 2010, not having to pay those again in 2013 is hardly a result of austerity.

    Your claims do not make any sense at all except in some sort of fantasyland.


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