85 convictions and free to kill?

Odysseus · 13-04-2013 04:07PM

woodoo wrote: »

I agree, remember the way they began to clean up crime in New York by cracking down hard on the minor stuff. I can't help thinking that in every town and village in ireland there is some local thug with 10, 15, 20 etc convictions out robbing, assaulting and creating havoc as we speak. If there was a 5 or 10 strike and you are going to jail for 10 years policy there may be less of these guys on the streets.

So say a 13 year old goes on a "joy-riding" spree he should be locked up for ten years? As he will be up on quite a few charges, in some cases 5. So he could have 5 convictions out of that crime.

You can't have a valid system base on numbers picked out of the air.

mikom · 13-04-2013 04:33PM

Gerard Barry with a previous conviction for manslaughter was wanted for questioning in another rape case rape when he raped and murdered the Swiss student Manuela in Galway.
I wonder was there a personal cannabis grower/Tv licence evader/garlic smuggler warming Barrys cell on the night he carried out the attack?

Priorities are all wrong in this country.

Keep the dangerous folk away from the peaceful folk until such time as they are rehabilitated.
Get that sorted first, then get back to me about the other fluff.

I'm sure Manuelas parents worry about personal cannabis growing, Tv licence evading, and garlic smuggling on a nightly basis.............

As for the lad who said to build private prisons, well he should be the first one fucked into one of the cells.
Yeah lets just make people into the raw materials of the prison business....

jigglypuffstuff · 13-04-2013 04:48PM

Odysseus wrote: »

However, I regular have people sit across from me in my office, a general history would go along the lines of something like this.

Getting involved in various anti-social activies such as petty crime,
drug and alcohol use/abuse,
leaving school before or just after junior, maybe even earlier.
As time goes by the petty crime increases in its severity.
Introduction to the justices system through JLO or similar at 14-16,
St Pats around 17,
The joy by 19,

The list could go on

But what I'm leading up to is a question I sometimes ask myself when I hear similar or worse histories. The question being, how much has the State failed this person that the end up sitting in front of me with a history like this?

By asking such a question I am not negating the significance of personal responsiblity, however, is The State not supposed to intervene in such cases?

If The State has intervene, and we still have the same situation, what is going wrong here?

I totally agree. however In many of the cases these people have been brought up from an early ages in very disadvantaged areas and been exposed to a number of factors detrimental to who they are today. The problem is when trying to overwrite early experience we need positive new experiences and a change of enviornment etc. How can one judge so young if someone will turn out to be a menace? or just someone who went through a bad patch during their early life? In other words how can the state judge where its appropriate to remove a child? ( exceptional circumstances aside)

mikom wrote: »

Gerard Barry with a previous conviction for manslaughter was wanted for questioning in another rape case rape when he raped and murdered the Swiss student Manuela in Galway.
I wonder was there a personal cannabis grower/Tv licence evader/garlic smuggler warming Barrys cell on the night he carried out the attack?

Priorities are all wrong in this country.

Keep the dangerous folk away from the peaceful folk until such time as they are rehabilitated.
Get that sorted first, then get back to me about the other fluff.

I'm sure Manuelas parents worry about personal cannabis growing, Tv licence evading, and garlic smuggling on a nightly basis.............

As for the dolt who said to build privite prisons, well he should be the first one fucked into one of the cells.
Yeah lets just make people into the raw materials of the prison business....

100%...gardai do not do their jobs correctly whatsoever!

mikom · 13-04-2013 04:52PM

pone2012 wrote: »

100%...gardai do not do their jobs correctly whatsoever!

Less the gardais fault and more to do with the lawmakers in government and the judiciary.
I'd say there are many Gardai pulling their hair out at the way some of this stuff is run and ruled upon.

jigglypuffstuff · 13-04-2013 04:57PM

mikom wrote: »

Less the gardais fault and more to do with the lawmakers in government and the judiciary.
I'd say there are many Gardai pulling their hair out at the way some of this stuff is run and ruled upon.

To an extent yes...but there have been so many incidents which have been quite the opposite..such as this

http://www.missingpersons-ireland.freepress-freespeech.com/gardatipp.htm

Zen65 · 13-04-2013 05:11PM

catallus wrote: »

But he is your and my equal.

And don't you forget it.

Jason Morrissey was not looking to be treated as an equal. He wanted to be treated as above others. He saw no wrong in taking a person's life so that he might experience a moment of satisfaction with himself.

Treating a person as equal includes making them accountable for their actions.

Z

catallus · 13-04-2013 05:18PM

Zen65 wrote: »

Jason Morrissey was not looking to be treated as an equal. He wanted to be treated as above others. He saw no wrong in taking a person's life so that he might experience a moment of satisfaction with himself.

Treating a person as equal includes making them accountable for their actions.

Z

And he was made accountable: he got 21 years incarceration. But even though his freedom has been taken away he MUST still be considered everyone's legal equal.

The law says that all the killers and rapists and burglars and all the other criminals are all our equal.

jigglypuffstuff · 13-04-2013 05:27PM

catallus wrote: »

The law says that all the killers and rapists and burglars and all the other criminals are all our equal.

The law says alot of things, much of which is complete and utter b*llsh*t

ArmaniJeanss · 13-04-2013 05:29PM

woodoo wrote: »

Could we do more to ensure these people are punished appropriately. America has 3 strikes and your are out. Could we have something along those lines, 5 strikes 10 etc. Surely after 85 convictions the likes of Morrissey just aren't getting the message that their behaviour is unacceptable. James Tynan would most likely be alive today if there was such a policy in place.
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Under such a 3 strikes, 5 strikes system he wouldn't have 85 convictions.
(And not because he'd be locked up).

For example as I understand if you woodoo get caught doing a burglary with the same modus operandi as another 84 burglaries in the same area over the last few years, you can plead guilty to all 85 and the system is happy as 85 crimes are now 'solved' and the courts take this into account. You now have 85 convictions.

Under an x strikes system you wouldn't accept those other 84 burglaries as your work and with no evidence for them (other than similarity which is not really evidence) you'd only have 1 conviction.

Odysseus · 13-04-2013 06:11PM

pone2012 wrote: »

I totally agree. however In many of the cases these people have been brought up from an early ages in very disadvantaged areas and been exposed to a number of factors detrimental to who they are today. The problem is when trying to overwrite early experience we need positive new experiences and a change of enviornment etc. How can one judge so young if someone will turn out to be a menace? or just someone who went through a bad patch during their early life? In other words how can the state judge where its appropriate to remove a child? ( exceptional circumstances aside)

100%...gardai do not do their jobs correctly whatsoever!

I don't know about removing a child, however, at the point that we start to intervene, we are acting.

However, if the subject is repeating criminal acts, then on some level the interventions are failing.

Now I am not saying I have the answers, but I see guys regularly who the system has failed. The education system failed them; I see a lot of very clever lads, but their basic educational skills like the ability to read and write are very poor. TBH it is shocking in a lot of cases, the same can be said for the probation service. However, with saying that I need to acknowledge the lack of funds available to these services, and the fact that there are plenty of dedicated workers in both services.

A lot of the guys I see who have anything from 20-100 convictions are not necessarily a danger to society: I couldn't stand over automatically locking them up or taking their live based on the amount of convictions they have, like some posters suggest.

Even looking at the basics like how does someone with a load of convictions and a very poor education, maybe a history of addiction thrown in for good luck, turn their life around. How can we facilitate those who are ready to change their lives do it?

As I said in a post above, I am not trying to negate the role of personal responsibility here; I am just putting it aside for the moment in order to look at the role of The State and its responsibilities here

SB2013 · 13-04-2013 06:16PM

Odysseus wrote: »

I don't know about removing a child, however, at the point that we start to intervene, we are acting.

However, if the subject is repeating criminal acts, then on some level the interventions are failing.

Now I am not saying I have the answers, but I see guys regularly who the system has failed. The education system failed them; I see a lot of very clever lads, but their basic educational skills like the ability to read and write are very poor. TBH it is shocking in a lot of cases, the same can be said for the probation service. However, with saying that I need to acknowledge the lack of funds available to these services, and the fact that there are plenty of dedicated workers in both services.

A lot of the guys I see who have anything from 20-100 convictions are not necessarily a danger to society: I couldn't stand over automatically locking them up or taking their live based on the amount of convictions they have, like some posters suggest.

Even looking at the basics like how does someone with a load of convictions and a very poor education, maybe a history of addiction thrown in for good luck, turn their life around. How can we facilitate those who are ready to change their lives do it?

As I said in a post above, I am not trying to negate the role of personal responsibility here; I am just putting it aside for the moment in order to look at the role of The State and its responsibilities here

The State gives them the same chances as it does to others. The State does much more for them in most cases. They choose to use this help for negative purposes. You are completely negating the role of personal responsability. The State should prioritise the rights of the law abiding citizens who are victimised by the people you say it fails.

Odysseus · 13-04-2013 06:40PM

SB2013 wrote: »

The State gives them the same chances as it does to others. The State does much more for them in most cases. They choose to use this help for negative purposes. You are completely negating the role of personal responsability. The State should prioritise the rights of the law abiding citizens who are victimised by the people you say it fails.

I disagree, however, we can discuss the role of personal responsibility if you want, as I am not negating it.

State interventions are not working, the State interventions to try punish and rehabilitate the individual, if those interventions are not working, the State is failing them.

Yes victims of crime oftyen need help too, support one does not negate the need for the other. Here it is a different topic, we can discuss all apects of such a big area in one go. I have stated my support for victims of crime, I have also worked with criminals who have been victims of crime too, that is certainly a paradox, but one that occurs. The are as worthy of support as another victim who has no convictions.

A lot of the lad and girls I see with say 50+ convictionsare more a danger to themselves than society.

Robroy36 · 13-04-2013 06:53PM

The fact is the state is not failing them. Somewhere along the line some pack of pathetic, bleeding heart liberals managed to obfuscate social policy to such a degree that it became ststus quo for the state to take responsibilty for absolutely everything. It is a situation that is a wrong and perverted as it is untenable. Ireland needs a smaller, more cohesive goverment not the out of control, ineffcient monster we have today.

Grayson · 13-04-2013 07:07PM

Robroy36 wrote: »

The fact is the state is not failing them. Somewhere along the line some pack of pathetic, bleeding heart liberals managed to obfuscate social policy to such a degree that it became ststus quo for the state to take responsibilty for absolutely everything. It is a situation that is a wrong and perverted as it is untenable. Ireland needs a smaller, more cohesive goverment not the out of control, ineffcient monster we have today.

So, lets say someone has a behavioral disorder that is treatable but is causing them to commit crime. The state does nothing and says "not my problem". Is that wise?

In 99% of cases there's no illness, but it could be said that the state still has the ability to do something.
Besides, it's good from a practical standpoint. In an interview a Scandinavian prison officer was asked if he happy with the amount that was spent on rehabilitation (they spend a lot). He said that when a convict is released he could end up living down the road from him and he'd be happier knowing that the guy had gone through the best rehabilitation possible.

having said all that, i do think it's silly that someone can amass 50+ convictions before they reach 25. At the very least there should be some kind of mandatory review at a certain stage. Maybe an increased sentence, maybe some special rehabilitation course. I wouldn't go as far as three strikes because 1) it's silly basing a legal system on baseball. And 2) it's unfair to lock someone up for three minor infractions.

Robroy36 · 13-04-2013 07:12PM

1% of the population spends their entire adult life in prison or we spend millions trying to reform them and ultimately failing.

What do you chose? At least we know prison will work.

Grayson · 13-04-2013 07:24PM

Robroy36 wrote: »

1% of the population spends their entire adult life in prison or we spend millions trying to reform them and ultimately failing.

What do you chose? At least we know prison will work.

Work at what. the prisons in the US are huge. There are more people in prison there than there were in the soviet gulag system.

And it's especially bad for people from deprived neighbourhoods.

Most people in US prisoners are there for non violent crime. And there are more men raped in prison every year than all the rapes perpretrated against women in the US. According to some estimates 1 in 15 african american men will end up in prison. And there's a good chance that maybe 1/3 of them will be sexually assaulted. this means that an african american youth has about a 1/45 to 1/50 chance of being assaulted in their lifetime.

But crime hasn't gone down. It's the same as ever. Incarceration isn't a solution. I'm not saying that someone who commits a crime shouldn't be punished. I'm saying that it's not a solution to crime itself.

woodoo · 13-04-2013 07:54PM

Odysseus wrote: »

So say a 13 year old goes on a "joy-riding" spree he should be locked up for ten years? As he will be up on quite a few charges, in some cases 5. So he could have 5 convictions out of that crime.

You can't have a valid system base on numbers picked out of the air.

I'm sure there is some formula that could be agreed to. We need much much tougher sentences and punishments. Letting people like Morrissey roam free with 85 convictions is an insult to society.

JJayoo · 13-04-2013 07:59PM

More convictions = more free legal aid = paid for by the tax payers = more money for solicitors.

pragmatic1 · 13-04-2013 08:02PM

DarkJager wrote: »

This is why we really a death sentence option in this country. There's no excuse for someone with 85 previous convictions walking the streets. He should have been put to death after 10 at the most.

Don't agree with the death sentence. Hard labor would be a stronger deterrent imo.

pragmatic1 · 13-04-2013 08:05PM

Grayson wrote: »

Work at what. the prisons in the US are huge. There are more people in prison there than there were in the soviet gulag system.

And it's especially bad for people from deprived neighbourhoods.

Most people in US prisoners are there for non violent crime. And there are more men raped in prison every year than all the rapes perpretrated against women in the US. According to some estimates 1 in 15 african american men will end up in prison. And there's a good chance that maybe 1/3 of them will be sexually assaulted. this means that an african american youth has about a 1/45 to 1/50 chance of being assaulted in their lifetime.

But crime hasn't gone down. It's the same as ever. Incarceration isn't a solution. I'm not saying that someone who commits a crime shouldn't be punished. I'm saying that it's not a solution to crime itself.

Most of the people incarcerated in the US are there for drugs, which is ridiculous. Jail people who are violent and make life utterly miserable for them. That's the answer.

catallus · 13-04-2013 08:08PM

Maybe we should look at this in a depressingly cynical manner:

What does it profit the elite to have people like Morrisey and his ilk (Persons with a long history of criminal behaviour) on the streets?

1) If enough of them are on the streets it keeps the police busy running around after them instead of them focusing efforts on mid-level criminality such as tax-evasion and the lighter treasons, and also the higher treasons and theft perpetuated by the higher classes.

2) As already mentioned, just one repeat offender keeps lawyers in money by running them through the court system on the legal aid scheme.

Airitech · 13-04-2013 08:33PM

From Independent.ie today:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/killer-danced-around-victim-with-arms-aloft-after-landing-fatal-punch-29193456.html

Killer danced around victim with arms aloft after landing fatal punch

A SMIRKING killer who struck a man to the ground with a single punch and then danced around him as he lay dying on the ground, said it "felt good" when he hit the victim in the unprovoked assault.

Jason Morrissey (23) of Church Street, Toomevara, Co Tipperary, was jailed yesterday for 18 years for the unlawful killing of Mr Tynan on February 19, 2012, in Liberty Square, Thurles, Co Tipperary, and three assaults committed in five days beforehand.

Morrissey had 85 criminal convictions and was on bail for public order offences when he killed Mr Tynan.

So he was on bail and had committed four assaults, killing one person, in the space of five days on top of his 85 previous convictions, one of which was for assaulting a Garda.

There is no way he should have been free to walk the streets. He is clearly violent and unrepentant but was allowed the opportunity to go on a spree of attacking people.

JJayoo · 13-04-2013 08:56PM

Airitech wrote: »

There is no way he should have been free to walk the streets. He is clearly violent and unrepentant but was allowed the opportunity to go on a spree of attacking people.

You can be sure his solicitor tried every trick in the book to get him off.

Death and Taxes · 14-04-2013 08:46AM

Robroy36 wrote: »

1% of the population spends their entire adult life in prison or we spend millions trying to reform them and ultimately failing.

What do you chose? At least we know prison will work.

There is absolutley NO evidence that prison works on any of three stated aims of imprisonment.
1.) Deterrant value, if prison worked the prison population would be getting smaller all the time as its deterrant effect took hold.
2) Rehabilitation, there is little more than lip service paid to rehabilitation in prison.
3) Protection of society, if prison is not a deterrant, and no effort is made at rehabilitation, then all prison does is postpone the next crime, there will still be a crime and there will still be a victim.

That said there is a strong arguement to be made for removing indefinitley the small number of consistantly violent individuals like the scumbag in this case, purely for the guarenteed protection of society, people like this should not be released until it has been shown that there behaviour has so substantially changed over a prolonged period of time that it is safe to release them, even then release should be under strict conditions and supervision.

DEFTLEFTHAND · 14-04-2013 09:00AM

.

Fiery mutant · 14-04-2013 09:04AM

To me, prison is not supposed to WORK. It's supposed to be a punishment, to make their life as miserable as possible so that when they get out, they fear ever having to go back.

Take away their gym's, take away their tv, take away all their 'perks' and see how much is saved on costs. Put them to work, doing public work, maintaining services around the country, cleaning footpaths, roads, hedge's, anything that is in the public interest.

Prison system as it is does not work for the vast majority of criminals IMHO.

Grayson · 14-04-2013 09:21AM

Fiery mutant wrote: »

To me, prison is not supposed to WORK. It's supposed to be a punishment, to make their life as miserable as possible so that when they get out, they fear ever having to go back.

Take away their gym's, take away their tv, take away all their 'perks' and see how much is saved on costs. Put them to work, doing public work, maintaining services around the country, cleaning footpaths, roads, hedge's, anything that is in the public interest.

Prison system as it is does not work for the vast majority of criminals IMHO.

And you've seen this working? I mean, do chain gangs in the US have a better track record with reoffenders?

twowheelsonly · 14-04-2013 10:03AM

Grayson wrote: »

Work at what. the prisons in the US are huge. There are more people in prison there than there were in the soviet gulag system.

And it's especially bad for people from deprived neighbourhoods.

Most people in US prisoners are there for non violent crime. And there are more men raped in prison every year than all the rapes perpretrated against women in the US. According to some estimates 1 in 15 african american men will end up in prison. And there's a good chance that maybe 1/3 of them will be sexually assaulted. this means that an african american youth has about a 1/45 to 1/50 chance of being assaulted in their lifetime.

But crime hasn't gone down. It's the same as ever. Incarceration isn't a solution. I'm not saying that someone who commits a crime shouldn't be punished. I'm saying that it's not a solution to crime itself.

That's simply not true. Overall crime rates in the States have consistently dropped since the 1980s'. Roughly 25% between 1988 and 2008 in fact which is a significant amount of individual criminal actions.

http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/eb/Property_Crime_Rates_in_the_United_States.svg

Regarding violent crime a huge amount of them are locked up for violent crime. Table 7 on page 7 of this document (2009) will show you that. It's in around 50% for each year quoted.

http://bjs.gov/content/pub/pdf/p09.pdf

Prison works from the point of view of keeping some of these violent offenders off the streets for a while. Other than that it's currently a waste of time. What we need here are some serious lock-down jails that have zero facilities. Let all offenders start in a regular jail with access to Counsellors, Rehab, School, Gym, TV etc to give them a chance to improve their lot. If after their 3rd time (random number!!) being jailed put them into the lock -up jail as they obviously haven't learned despite being given the chance.

Hand-in-hand with this though needs to be a system of expunging convictions following a set time conviction free (Time being dependent on the crime.) Jails are full of 'Jail Fools' - Young fellas that get into trouble at 17/18/19 and are in and out until they're 23/24 or so but are never seen again after that. A lot of them are under Public Order Act offences, an act which has criminalised a lot of young fellas nowadays for offences that we got a smack on the back of the head for. Currently these convictions are there for life. If there as a carrot of being conviction free after X number of years I'm convinced that overall behaviour would improve enormously.

Regardless of what system is ever introduced the perfect system doesn't exist so some scumbags like Morrissey will always be around and be on the streets when they really shouldn't be.

AlekSmart · 14-04-2013 10:06AM

catallus wrote: »

People who have a problem with this person having been free to kill the victim should take a long hard look at themselves so they can realise that the killer is a citizen of this country and is therefore in the eyes of the law their equal in every possible way.

It's easy to forget the principle of equality in cases like this. It doesn't matter if he had 8 or 85 or 850 previous convictions. He is still an equal citizen, with all of the freedom that entails.

Whilst Catallus is indeed making a strong point re equality,I feel he misses (or ignores) one equally important point.

One Morrissey decided to attack James Tynan,in the manner outlined in Court,Mr Tynan ceased to have the equal standing so well described by catallus.

Mr Morrissey,decided that his own "Equality" took priority over Mr Tynans and for sure,drawing upon his,by then,substantial experience of Irelands law-enforcement system,saw no barrier to attacking another citizen and killing him...without any hesitation at all,and even today,with no visible remorse.

Perhaps this equality of savagery is what we should all strive to maintain and protect,in advance of protecting the more mundane stuff,like the right to live without fear of assault or murder ?

Whether we like it or not,catallus is quite correct in that right now,this State has 100% responsibility for Mr Morrisey's entire wellbeing.

I have little doubt that there will be no shortage of concerned persons who will,most assidiously,monitor the State's ongoing treatment of Mr Cassidy.

However,it's equally true I feel that these people,saw no merit in those 85 previous convictions actually being used to facilitate the State in preventing what,by this stage,had become inevitable.

Some, like Odysseus,may well point to Morrisey's 85 previous convictions,as of themselves,being valueless in terms of assessing his "goodness" index,however,I would suggest that the process of the State actually securing these convictions is the important indicator here.

Being accused,and tried for any offence is one thing,but the process of securing a conviction in open court,along with any subsequent appeal processes means that more State resources than a Law abiding citizen would see in an entire lifetime has already been invested in Mr Morrissey.

I think Wiley Coyote is somewhat more compos mentis about it here....

That said there is a strong arguement to be made for removing indefinitley the small number of consistantly violent individuals like the scumbag in this case, purely for the guarenteed protection of society, people like this should not be released until it has been shown that there behaviour has so substantially changed over a prolonged period of time that it is safe to release them, even then release should be under strict conditions and supervision.

I would however,question the use of the term "small number" in this discussion as the evidence points to a subatantial amount of Court Time being taken up by recidivist criminals whose convictions tend to be on an ascending scale of severity.

Grayson · 14-04-2013 10:48AM

twowheelsonly wrote: »

That's simply not true. Overall crime rates in the States have consistently dropped since the 1980s'. Roughly 25% between 1988 and 2008 in fact which is a significant amount of individual criminal actions.

It has gone down, but that's not due to the incarceration levels. based purely on freakonomics (I know, it's only one source, but it's pretty damn good) that drop was due to Roe Vs Wade. The 90's also saw the biggest increase in income since the baby boom.
But, if you look at something that can be directly correlated to prison, like when US states brought in the three strike rule, there have been no major drops since then.
Although crime has fallen, it's not because of incarceration levels increasing.

85 convictions and free to kill?

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