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Building Control (Amendment) Regulations 2013

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Comments

  • #32
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    Well I think the general public needs to be aware that under these news regs if

    Scenario A .

    They live in an apartment which is found to be defective. The only role that the Local authority will perform is to sell copies of documentation that they have carefully filed so that the homeowner may , in theory , more easily sue 2 or maybe 3 individuals i.e.
    1. the provider of the Designers Certificate ,
    2. the Provider of the Inspection and Compliance Certificate and
    3. the builder.

    The apartment dwellers plight nor the pyritic homeowners plight will be no better advanced than it is today

    Mod reminder - we must not discuss real live cases here

    Scenario B

    You have had built or extended your house . In due course it transpires it has defects . Again The only role that the Local authority will perform is to sell copies of documentation that they have carefully filed so that homeowner may , in theory , more easily sue 2 or maybe 3 individuals i.e.
    1. the provider of the Designers Certificate ,
    2. the Provider of the Inspection and Compliance Certificate and
    3. the builder.

    Notice the activity of Local Authorities in all of this ?

    And to the unfortunate homeowner in this situation expect to have pointed out to you that you did in fact sign and lodge with the Local Authority a document stating
    As the building owner, I have assigned the following person as Builder of the works and I am satisfied that they are competent to undertake the works so assigned on my behalf

    So the official response to a homeowner in such difficulty will be " what do you want us to do about your builder. Now off you go and fix up your own home"

    Now consider this - the Local Property Tax , supposedly levied to provide funding for local government . Pity it doesn't serve to provide us with a UK style Local Authority Building Control Inspectorate.


  • #33
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    For the purposes of this new BCA will planning application documents be considered design documents? As most if not all planning drawings are not fully designed/specified.


  • #34
    Brave Harvey
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 89 ✭✭Brave Harvey


    For the purposes of this new BCA will planning application documents be considered design documents? As most if not all planning drawings are not fully designed/specified.

    At the Homebond Insurances lecture in Dublin recently and they pointed out that the drawings submitted to planning from March 2014 will have to be full spec drawings detailing how you plan to meet the regulations Part L and BER. This can only imo mean full specification and calculations. I think they mentioned working drawings but I will stand corrected.


  • #35
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    It would be easy enough to provide this information with a BER assessment but there is more to working drawings than Part L. Structure would be a major element which would require some onsite assessment prior to designing foundations etc.

    I would have thought that working drawings would be submitted with the commencement notice under this new arrangement.


  • #36
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    For the purposes of this new BCA will planning application documents be considered design documents? As most if not all planning drawings are not fully designed/specified.

    Planning application documents lodged with a planning application will be prepared in accordance with the Planning and Development Regulations 2001. Unless the self same documents are re submitted with a commencement notice under the new Building Regulations - then the answer is no.


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  • #37
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Thanks S.


  • #38
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    Bullseye1 wrote: »
    would have thought that working drawings would be submitted with the commencement notice under this new arrangement.

    Essentially yes i.e. all drawings , specifications and calculations to show how you will comply with building regulations.


  • #39
    newbie2013
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 405 ✭✭newbie2013


    what about paddy the builder up the road with no qualifictions down on paper yet is really handy at a few trades like block building,roofs plumbing and ground works etc..

    The reason why i ask is that my father is quite handy at a few jobs and is hoping to build his 2nd home in 2015. Will he be able to build this way or will he have to get all tradesmen in now.


  • #40
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    He will have to hire an Architect , Engineer or Surveyor to

    design - in technical details - before the works start
    inspect regularly - during the works
    certify - at completion of the works.

    Detailed drawings and specifications and calculations ( more detailed than planning drawings ) will have to be prepared and lodged with council before works start.

    If anything changes during the works , affecting building regulations , then updated drawings will have to be lodged with the council before the house can be used.


  • #41
    Supertech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Supertech


    It looks as if 'handy' won't cut it anymore.

    The 'Building Owner' must now formally appoint 'The Builder' and confirm that he is satisfied that this person is competent to undertake the works. In turn, the Builder must accept this assignment in writing and confirm that he and any person employed by him or engaged by him will be competent to carry out the works, and that he will certify that the works are in compliance with Building Regulations.

    On completion of the project, 'The Builder' must then co-sign the completion certificate with the 'Assigned Person'. There's no mention of insurances on the certificate for the Builder - yet !! Can't see the 'Assigned Persons' letting that lie for long. A lot of talk during the run up to publication was about the professions being the 'insurer of last resort' with builders going bankrupt and escaping legal action.

    I'd guess in any case that certifying your own build might cause problems, although as it stands at present on 'direct labour' type jobs the person signing off essentially accepts full responsibility for compliance of the build, so that may continue.

    It will be interesting to see how the Building Control Authorities handle this type of case.


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  • #42
    muffler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,029 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    First up I haven't read through the entire SI but from what I can determine based on what I have read to date is that the days of direct labour/self build are drawing to a close unless the legal eagles (as has been done before) come to some form of agreed wording on the certs.


  • #43
    hexosan
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,728 ✭✭✭hexosan


    If you have received planning prior to 2014 are you still required to comply with these requirements if you commence construction after its introduction


  • #44
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    The dates attached to your planning permission do not affect this.

    The only way to avoid being bound by these regulations if you intend to build is to lodge a Commencement Notice on or before 28 Feb 2014.


  • #45
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    newbie2013 wrote: »
    what about paddy the builder up the road with no qualifictions down on paper yet is really handy at a few trades like block building,roofs plumbing and ground works etc..

    The reason why i ask is that my father is quite handy at a few jobs and is hoping to build his 2nd home in 2015. Will he be able to build this way or will he have to get all tradesmen in now.
    sinnerboy wrote: »
    He will have to hire an Architect , Engineer or Surveyor...

    Also to add insult to injury, to excuse the pun, with new Health & Safety Regulations coming into place this June, he will also have to appoint (seperately) a Project Supervisor Design Stage and Project Supervisor Construction Stage.

    In my opinion, once Joe Public gets to hear about both these new regulations (or understand them), BCA and H&S, I think Joe Public is going to get quite a shock and think twice/really hard about undertaking building work or large extension. Both these new regulations will drive up professional fees and construction costs in general.

    Without some sort of formal registration of builders, and, in essence, some sort of quasi 'professional' insurance for builders, the whole thing, to be honest, is daft! I know the RIAI is pushing for the provision of Latent Defects Insurance on projects, which I assume the contractor would put in place (no doubt at the cleints exepense) that would last for 10 years to cover defects.

    As mentioned somewhere above, nothing to stop a contractor shutting up shop on a regular basis and setting up again in a new guise, as a new company, and in effect regularly washing his hands of past work.


  • #46
    DOCARCH
    Moderators, Home & Garden Moderators, Science, Health & Environment Moderators Posts: 19,146 Mod ✭✭✭✭DOCARCH


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    5. Notice of Assignment of Builder . You confirm you have appointed a competent builder.

    6. Undertaking by Builder . The builder confirms your appointment of him . He confirms he is competent and that he knows and will build to regs.[/B]

    Both the above points = daft....without some sort of formal registration of builders!

    I'd love to know what qualifies a builder as competent?

    In 15 years in practice I have yet to come across a builder that 'knows' the building regulations - some know bits and pieces - some are 10 years behind in their knowledge - others are in complete denial of building regulations to the extent that one builder I pulled up on site (not really in jest) told me to 'go f**k your building regulations'!

    Note in that quote the 'your' bit...that says it all. I often have to remind builders (and clients) they are not some sort of fancy pants 'architect regulations'.


  • #47
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    Yes and the Department of the Environment officials and the Minister are fully aware of the nature of those in the construction industry and the disdain of so many working there for regulations.

    They have been lobbied hard for all the powers that the Building Control Act 1990 confers on Local authorities be in fact exercised by Local Authorities.

    Instead clients will have to declare they are satisfied that the builder knows the regs and will build to them!

    And no designer , inspector or certifier can force a belligerant builder to comply with regulations . I say that after 25+ years in practice as an architectural technician. Local authorities can enforce regulations and have imposed financial and other punishments for non compliance as provided by law.

    Again I repeat our state agencies are seeking more from us in taxes and withdrawing more from us in terms of there legally mandated responsibilities here.


  • #48
    tootsy70
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭tootsy70


    sinnerboy wrote: »
    He will have to hire an Architect , Engineer or Surveyor to

    design - in technical details - before the works start
    inspect regularly - during the works
    certify - at completion of the works.

    Detailed drawings and specifications and calculations ( more detailed than planning drawings ) will have to be prepared and lodged with council before works start.

    If anything changes during the works , affecting building regulations , then updated drawings will have to be lodged with the council before the house can be used.


    Is that not what already gets done with direct labour


  • #49
    tootsy70
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭tootsy70


    Supertech wrote: »
    It looks as if 'handy' won't cut it anymore.

    The 'Building Owner' must now formally appoint 'The Builder' and confirm that he is satisfied that this person is competent to undertake the works. In turn, the Builder must accept this assignment in writing and confirm that he and any person employed by him or engaged by him will be competent to carry out the works, and that he will certify that the works are in compliance with Building Regulations.


    Would this not be just passing on the buck to builders now, more or less i can see the handy men still doing what they do best and getting a builder in to pass the work.

    I know quite a few people who have built their own houses themselves and know 3 guys who are also in the process of looking for sites with the idea of doing all the work themselves when they start in 2014/15. Theyll be in for a shock when they hear these new regs but i guess there will be a way around it


  • #50
    Supertech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Supertech


    tootsy70 wrote: »
    Would this not be just passing on the buck to builders now, more or less i can see the handy men still doing what they do best and getting a builder in to pass the work.

    I know quite a few people who have built their own houses themselves and know 3 guys who are also in the process of looking for sites with the idea of doing all the work themselves when they start in 2014/15. Theyll be in for a shock when they hear these new regs but i guess there will be a way around it

    I wouldn't see it as passing the buck certainly. The Builder is already supposed to know the Building Regulations and to build in accordance with them.

    It won't be as simple as getting the Builder in to pass the work, as he, like the Assigned Certifier, will have to sign a certificate accepting responsibility for the works as completed at the end of the project. I suppose it could be done, but that brings a Building Contractor into the equation which is the exact opposite of what happens with direct labour, and introduces another variable and another fee into the mix.


  • #51
    dathi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭dathi


    only had a quick read but surely the self builder only has to set up a limited company "bob the builder very limited" and nominate them as "the builder" to circumvent the regs. use direct labor then cease trading after certifying house ?


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  • #52
    Supertech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 597 ✭✭✭Supertech


    dathi wrote: »
    only had a quick read but surely the self builder only has to set up a limited company "bob the builder very limited" and nominate them as "the builder" to circumvent the regs. use direct labor then cease trading after certifying house ?

    Is that not what landed us here in the first place ??


  • #53
    atech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭atech


    dathi wrote: »
    only had a quick read but surely the self builder only has to set up a limited company "bob the builder very limited" and nominate them as "the builder" to circumvent the regs. use direct labor then cease trading after certifying house ?

    I think that's what sinnerboy was suggesting in his earlier reply to me (or something similar) but the issue with that as far as I can see is if there is a problem down the line the self builder cannot hold the individual trade to account as he (the self builder) is effectively signing off on his work (electrician, etc) as being compliant.


  • #54
    dathi
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,454 ✭✭✭dathi


    atech wrote: »
    I think that's what sinnerboy was suggesting in his earlier reply to me (or something similar) but the issue with that as far as I can see is if there is a problem down the line the self builder cannot hold the individual trade to account as he (the self builder) is effectively signing off on his work (electrician, etc) as being compliant.

    eh no a limited company is a separate legal entity to the owners so he wouldn't be signing of on any work the company would . makes a farce of proper building control though


  • #55
    atech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭atech


    dathi wrote: »
    eh no a limited company is a separate legal entity to the owners so he wouldn't be signing of on any work the company would . makes a farce of proper building control though

    But the ltd company director is the self builder so whether the company is wound up or not the cost to rectify any issues made by individual trades down the line would lie with them as they have certified all the trades work.


  • #56
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,567 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    lads we are slightly going of topic with this limited company stuff.... but anyway my view is:

    1. its not that easy set up a ltd and maintain limited company books.
    2. once a limited company is dissolved, AFAIK all liability is dissolved with it... im open to correction on that.


  • #57
    atech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭atech


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    lads we are slightly going of topic with this limited company stuff.... but anyway my view is:

    1. its not that easy set up a ltd and maintain limited company books.
    2. once a limited company is dissolved, AFAIK all liability is dissolved with it... im open to correction on that.

    The builders certification goes right to the heart of these new regulations, so how that builder is set up legally is most definitely relevant.

    Just to clarify I am obviously referring to the house owner as being the self-builder so whether liability is dissolved or not once the company is wound up is irrelevant as the owner would only be suing themselves in any case. Which including the hassle of setting up a ltd company is why I can't see any self-builder going this route.


  • #58
    muffler
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 47,029 ✭✭✭✭muffler


    I cant see the "certifier" working with this type of guy or this type of setup


  • #59
    sydthebeat
    Subscribers, Paid Member Posts: 43,567 ✭✭✭✭sydthebeat


    atech wrote: »
    The builders certification goes right to the heart of these new regulations, so how that builder is set up legally is most definitely relevant.

    Just to clarify I am obviously referring to the house owner as being the self-builder so whether liability is dissolved or not once the company is wound up is irrelevant as the owner would only be suing themselves in any case. Which including the hassle of setting up a ltd company is why I can't see any self-builder going this route.

    no actually its worse that that.....

    Ireland has a legal perversion commonly called the "1% rule"

    this means that if there are more than one part named in a lawsuit case, even if one party is foudn to be 99% responsible and teh other 1% responsible.... the 1% party can, and generally does, be loaded with 100% of the determined costs.
    so in the case where a homeowner sues a disolved company, the certifying company WILL benamed in any such action and can be held to 100% of costs even if only 1% responsible.

    this is the main reason insurance companies in ireland are fleeing the architectural certification sector.


  • #60
    atech
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 195 ✭✭atech


    sydthebeat wrote: »
    no actually its worse that that.....

    Ireland has a legal perversion commonly called the "1% rule"

    this means that if there are more than one part named in a lawsuit case, even if one party is foudn to be 99% responsible and teh other 1% responsible.... the 1% party can, and generally does, be loaded with 100% of the determined costs.
    so in the case where a homeowner sues a disolved company, the certifying company WILL benamed in any such action and can be held to 100% of costs even if only 1% responsible.

    this is the main reason insurance companies in ireland are fleeing the architectural certification sector.

    Learn something new every day

    In that case then I'd have to concur with what Muffler said.


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  • #61
    sinnerboy
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,433 ✭✭✭sinnerboy


    It will be interesting to see how Local Authorities and lending institutions of clients will scrutinize "the builder" in would be self builder direct labor projects. In other words if a client by whatever means deems himself the builder will that effort fail / be rejected under scrutiny of those bodies.


This discussion has been closed.
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