Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

kippy · 09-04-2013 03:42PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I am proud to live in this country.
I am not proud of the people we elect to run it, the last shower or this one either. They look after their own cronies and buddies at the expense of their people.

As I said, if the Unions really cared about any of that don't you think they'd be threatening strike action over it instead of using strikes as a method of extracting money from the state.
Come to think of it aren't the most senior union members among these "cronies" and buddies at this point?

Dreamertime · 09-04-2013 04:53PM

kippy wrote: »

As I said, if the Unions really cared about any of that don't you think they'd be threatening strike action over it instead of using strikes as a method of extracting money from the state.

Why not reprt us to the Gardaí on grounds of extortion

tayto lover · 09-04-2013 05:18PM

kippy wrote: »

As I said, if the Unions really cared about any of that don't you think they'd be threatening strike action over it instead of using strikes as a method of extracting money from the state.
Come to think of it aren't the most senior union members among these "cronies" and buddies at this point?

It never ceases to amuse me when I read all this union bashing. You obviously are too young to remember the conditions people endured in work places before they were allowed join a union. I worked in one particular job in England where there was no union and the conditions were awful
Now I know that the unions are very cozy with employers in many places and in particular in the PS but you cannot tar them all with the same brush. Things wouldn't be long reverting back to the old ways without the unions.
Be careful of what you wish for.

carpejugulum · 09-04-2013 05:35PM

sean200 wrote: »

Croke Park Agreement discriminate against women and families

http://www.breakingnews.ie/ireland/croke-park-proposals-discriminate-against-women-and-families-590658.html

But then again that is not new news as this government are anti Family as can be see in last budget

Ironically, the assumption that women cannot work longer hours is sexist in the first place.
And they will still work under 40 hours, which is a very standard working week.

kippy · 09-04-2013 07:57PM

Dreamertime wrote: »

Why not reprt us to the Gardaí on grounds of extortion

It's not really extortion now is it?

kippy · 09-04-2013 08:01PM

tayto lover wrote: »

It never ceases to amuse me when I read all this union bashing. You obviously are too young to remember the conditions people endured in work places before they were allowed join a union. I worked in one particular job in England where there was no union and the conditions were awful
Now I know that the unions are very cozy with employers in many places and in particular in the PS but you cannot tar them all with the same brush. Things wouldn't be long reverting back to the old ways without the unions.
Be careful of what you wish for.

Ah yeah, us young whippersnappers would never remember the days when you went to work in scotland at 14 picking potatoes, sure if it weren't for unions we'd all be at it.
Look a a previous post in this thread that I made yesterday where I say that fundamentally unions are a good thing however in the past decade they have lost their way and indeed are a hindrance to progress in many areas.

As far as employee rights go, becoming a member of the EU has ensured uniform protection for all workers across the union - and indeed many of our workers rights laws are backed up by EU wide laws and while the unions may have assisted with this, without unions it isn't like we'd be back in the dark ages again.

Be careful what I wish for?
You have no idea what I wish for.

tayto lover · 09-04-2013 08:14PM

kippy wrote: »

Ah yeah, us young whippersnappers would never remember the days when you went to work in scotland at 14 picking potatoes, sure if it weren't for unions we'd all be at it.
Look a a previous post in this thread that I made yesterday where I say that fundamentally unions are a good thing however in the past decade they have lost their way and indeed are a hindrance to progress in many areas.

As far as employee rights go, becoming a member of the EU has ensured uniform protection for all workers across the union - and indeed many of our workers rights laws are backed up by EU wide laws and while the unions may have assisted with this, without unions it isn't like we'd be back in the dark ages again.

Be careful what I wish for?
You have no idea what I wish for.

Maybe you should talk to some of the boys from Waterford Crystal, Lagan Brick etc and see how Europe stuck up for them :rolleyes:

Farmer Pudsey · 09-04-2013 10:14PM

creedp wrote: »

This is a valid point and this is why I will not vote for this union brokered deal which seeks to single out certain categories of workers for inequitable hits. If pay cuts are to be introduced then go ahead and legislate for graduated cuts as was deemed appropriate for the last two occassions pay has been cut. Why is it different this time? In the meantime enter meaningful negotiations with the unions re reform. If the Govt can get the union to support pay cuts then why can't they get them to support reforms advocated by the 90% you refer to above?

I agree with you on this creepd SIPTU and the admin unions showed there colours regarding higher cuts to staff working shift etc. such as Guards and Nurses, Also a 2 hour increase to someone on flexitime and a 35 hour week is totally different to some on a 37 hour week and not able to avail of flexitime. When you consider the HSE is overloaded with admin staff and it is the staff that actually produce that are effected the most.

tayto lover wrote: »

Your point was that if people were not earning enough with all the cuts that they could apply for better paying jobs.
#Now for a second time where are these 280 thousand better paying jobs?
Please don't try moving the goalposts again.

The reality is there are very few jobs that pay better than the PS and none with the same terms and conditions. The reality is that the PS is between 30% and 40% better paid than the private sector. They also have in general lighter workloads. So no there is no job better than the PS so there is no point looking.

Kippy point is that if you think the private sector is better paid and has better conditions then you should look for a job there. This is the reason why for all the talk few PS will leave after the cuts as far away hill are not always green

Godge wrote: »

Option 2: Stick together, withdraw from the Croke Park Agreement, ballot for industrial action and take targeted industrial action to force the government's hand.

I am not saying I agree with Option 2 but it is there for public servants to consider.

This is typical of PS thinking with draw part of a service, in the private sector this in general is not tolerated as staff are suspended and removed from the payroll and other staff are instructed to do there work, if they refuse they then follow the first lot.

You also need to be aware that a Ronald Regan type action is also possible.

Pete M. · 09-04-2013 10:25PM

kippy wrote: »

Look a a previous post in this thread that I made yesterday where I say that fundamentally unions are a good thing however in the past decade they have lost their way and indeed are a hindrance to progress in many areas.

You are dead right here. Fundamentally, absolutely necessary to protect workers, but in practice they have become corrupted and unfit for purpose.
But one must always remember that the 'Unions' are made up of their members i.e. ordinary folk like you and I, and the leadership, who are all overpaid politically malleable creatures who want to maintain the status quo more than they want to defend rights & conditions.
Most are in conflict with their own Objects if they agree to any dis improvement in their Member's conditions.

kippy wrote: »

As far as employee rights go, becoming a member of the EU has ensured uniform protection for all workers across the union - and indeed many of our workers rights laws are backed up by EU wide laws and while the unions may have assisted with this, without unions it isn't like we'd be back in the dark ages again.

One can also argue that the individualization of workers in this way i.e. via EU regulations etc., really is the ultimate divide & conquer, because while it may be look pretty good in practice, it doesn't really work when applied to groups like what exist in the real world. there are many, many working people who just wouldn't stand up for themselves when they should and Unions are meant to provide this support for people in their workplaces.

With regard to the ballot on the proposals, I am a rep with a large public sector Union and it looks like it is going down to the wire.

Even I thought, as an ardent No man, that the result would be around 65:35 yes to no, closer than CP1 but it could be even closer.

There are some very irksome tactics being used by some folk in the Yes camp to persuade (and by that I mean frighten or threaten) people who are not sure yet that Yes will solve all their problems.

This will come back to bite them in the @rse either way...

My head is going to be well melted by the end of this week

Godge · 09-04-2013 11:15PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

This is typical of PS thinking with draw part of a service, in the private sector this in general is not tolerated as staff are suspended and removed from the payroll and other staff are instructed to do there work, if they refuse they then follow the first lot.

You also need to be aware that a Ronald Regan type action is also possible.

More unresearched rubbish.

The right to take collective industrial action of various forms is a right enshrined in international law (ILO), European law (various directives) and Irish law (Industrial Relations Act). Withdrawing part of the service is a legitimate protected right. We are not Saudi Arabia trampling on peoples' rights.

Just because people don't like that they will be disrupted by industrial action is no reason to ban it. If I were you I would make sure your passport, driving licence etc are up to date, that you collect your grant as early as possible and that you arrange to have your children home-schooled if you want to avoid the effects of potential industrial action.

Public servants have rights too you know.

Farmer Pudsey · 09-04-2013 11:36PM

Godge wrote: »

More unresearched rubbish.

The right to take collective industrial action of various forms is a right enshrined in international law (ILO), European law (various directives) and Irish law (Industrial Relations Act). Withdrawing part of the service is a legitimate protected right. We are not Saudi Arabia trampling on peoples' rights.

Just because people don't like that they will be disrupted by industrial action is no reason to ban it. If I were you I would make sure your passport, driving licence etc are up to date, that you collect your grant as early as possible and that you arrange to have your children home-schooled if you want to avoid the effects of potential industrial action.

Public servants have rights too you know.

And it is the right of an employer to expect an employee to do there work. There seems to be a perception that you can withdraw certain staff or do so called work to rules such as not answer phones or complete work on equipment provided in the PS and cause mayhem with minimal cost to employees. However it is with in am employers right to redeploy staff into these area's if they are capable of doing the job and if they refuse suspend.

The part highlighted shows the contempt that some PS's hold ordinary workers in. They are there to pay tax for to provide them with a cushy job and lifestyle and now that time are changed from the boom when Bertie and co allowed wages and staff numbers to be unsustainable they throw the toys out of the pram and fail to face reality.

If they feel hard done by they can always look at options in the private sector. Then they will understand that they cannot stay on a few extra hours so that the collect the children from school or attend parent/teacher meeting

As for your threats I do not think that those out side the public sector will accept this carry on. The last time the passport office tried this on they had to back down fast. If my driving licence is out of date I expect the guard will not be able to do anything about it.

It is amazing the way you post about PS rights but fail to under that ordinary people have rights as well.

Farmer Pudsey · 09-04-2013 11:41PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe you should talk to some of the boys from Waterford Crystal, Lagan Brick etc and see how Europe stuck up for them :rolleyes:

When you speak about Waterford Crystal I presume that you are on about the pension debacle. The Irish Government know that this is an issue for the last 10 years and have failed to legislate for these senario's. It is not an European issue rather Irish politicians failing to take on a vested interest again in case they upset the Majority

creedp · 10-04-2013 09:16AM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

When you speak about Waterford Crystal I presume that you are on about the pension debacle. The Irish Government know that this is an issue for the last 10 years and have failed to legislate for these senario's. It is not an European issue rather Irish politicians failing to take on a vested interest again in case they upset the Majority

So the company is not responsible for hollowing out its pension fund? Its the Govt's fault for not ensuring a private company does not adequately provide for its employees pension scheme. On the one hand we blame individuals for taking out unsustainable mortgages in that they were either naive or worse pretty stupid and it was not up to the banks and the Govt to control these kamikaze borrowers, yet on the other hand a large corporation makes a mess of it pension fund and its the Govt which should have held their hand and ensured they could make such a fundamental mistake.

In any case its not that the Govt won't take on the majority, its that they won't take on the minority vested interests, in this case big business.

Godge · 10-04-2013 12:17PM

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

And it is the right of an employer to expect an employee to do there work. There seems to be a perception that you can withdraw certain staff or do so called work to rules such as not answer phones or complete work on equipment provided in the PS and cause mayhem with minimal cost to employees. However it is with in am employers right to redeploy staff into these area's if they are capable of doing the job and if they refuse suspend..

Yes, those are the rights of the empployer subject to paying the wage, in this case they will be cutting the wage without agreement and the right of the employees to take collective industrial action applies.

It doesn't have to be a strike, a clever tactic on the part of a union is to engage in a work-to-rule that makes it extremely difficult legally for an employer to carry out business and respond with pay deductions/suspensions. For example, the Passport Office relies on voluntary overtime in the summer period. Redeploying staff at short notice is not an option as there is not enough time to train them up.

similarly, schools rely on voluntary supervision and substitution. Withdraw that and the school has to close regardless of the fact that the teachers are fully available for their compulsory work.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

The part highlighted shows the contempt that some PS's hold ordinary workers in. They are there to pay tax for to provide them with a cushy job and lifestyle and now that time are changed from the boom when Bertie and co allowed wages and staff numbers to be unsustainable they throw the toys out of the pram and fail to face reality..

What rubbish, I don't work in the public sector for a start.

It is another unknowing insult to public sector workers, many of whom their ambitions are driven by public service.

You should face reality that some of the public servants are not going to allow themselves be walked all over.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

If they feel hard done by they can always look at options in the private sector. Then they will understand that they cannot stay on a few extra hours so that the collect the children from school or attend parent/teacher meeting.

Just like I have done, I left a relatively well-paid job in the public sector for a better one in the private sector. Much easier time-wise too may I say.

Farmer Pudsey wrote: »

As for your threats I do not think that those out side the public sector will accept this carry on. The last time the passport office tried this on they had to back down fast. If my driving licence is out of date I expect the guard will not be able to do anything about it.

It is amazing the way you post about PS rights but fail to under that ordinary people have rights as well.

I am not threatening anything. I am explaining the simple facts of industrial relations life to those ignorant of this. Many people on these threads have no memory of how conflict in industrial relations worked.

The passport office people didn't back down - the request for more promotion posts and more temporary staff to take off the pressure was conceded by the management.

You have no reason to expect the guard ignore your out-of-date driving license.

sarumite · 10-04-2013 12:50PM

Godge wrote: »

Y

similarly, schools rely on voluntary supervision and substitution. Withdraw that and the school has to close regardless of the fact that the teachers are fully available for their compulsory work.

There are many aspects to teaching that are, indeed, voluntary. However supervision and substitution are not voluntary. The government would like to incorporate them into their normal work practice in CPA2 by changing the rules with regard to the S&S allowance.

Farmer Pudsey · 10-04-2013 02:24PM

creedp wrote: »

So the company is not responsible for hollowing out its pension fund? Its the Govt's fault for not ensuring a private company does not adequately provide for its employees pension scheme. On the one hand we blame individuals for taking out unsustainable mortgages in that they were either naive or worse pretty stupid and it was not up to the banks and the Govt to control these kamikaze borrowers, yet on the other hand a large corporation makes a mess of it pension fund and its the Govt which should have held their hand and ensured they could make such a fundamental mistake.

In any case its not that the Govt won't take on the majority, its that they won't take on the minority vested interests, in this case big business.

Creedp there has been an issue with DB pensions since the early 2000's. This has been as much to do with a change to acturial valuations rules. In most cases the collapse of these companies comes in a down turn when the pension scheme's funds are not able to be access in an orderly manner. What happens when a company goes in to recievership/liquidation is that existing pensioners have first claim on the fund, then existing workers and then workers that have left the company but have not reached retirment age.

The existing pensioners usually swallow up all existing funds. They have to be bought annunities to cover the amount of there pension. Waterford glass is not the first case, before that there was CARA an old subsidary of Aer Lingus that was sold off the workers suffered in that as well.

DB pension schemes are under pressure due to pensionsers living longer it is not possible for some companies to fund same, the government have failed to legislate to give some existing workers some protection in the case of a windup.

tayto lover · 10-04-2013 03:03PM

The reality is there are very few jobs that pay better than the PS and none with the same terms and conditions. The reality is that the PS is between 30% and 40% better paid than the private sector. They also have in general lighter workloads. So no there is no job better than the PS so there is no point looking.

Kippy point is that if you think the private sector is better paid and has better conditions then you should look for a job there. This is the reason why for all the talk few PS will leave after the cuts as far away hill are not always green

Ah poor Farmer Pudsey,

Jesus is that what caused the stampede to apply for the nursing jobs?
40 applied for 1,000 jobs and they paid better by between 30 and 40% than the private sector?
Lighter workloads as well ?
Who are you comparing nurses, garda, firemen with exactly?

Your posts are laughable as they are pure spiteful and exaggerated.

kippy · 10-04-2013 07:26PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Maybe you should talk to some of the boys from Waterford Crystal, Lagan Brick etc and see how Europe stuck up for them :rolleyes:

Were they working unpaid in awful conditions at risk to their lives?
Unions there or not, those cases would have ended no differently.

kippy · 10-04-2013 07:27PM

tayto lover wrote: »

The reality is there are very few jobs that pay better than the PS and none with the same terms and conditions. The reality is that the PS is between 30% and 40% better paid than the private sector. They also have in general lighter workloads. So no there is no job better than the PS so there is no point looking.

Kippy point is that if you think the private sector is better paid and has better conditions then you should look for a job there. This is the reason why for all the talk few PS will leave after the cuts as far away hill are not always green

Ah poor Farmer Pudsey,

Jesus is that what caused the stampede to apply for the nursing jobs?
40 applied for 1,000 jobs and they paid better by between 30 and 40% than the private sector?
Lighter workloads as well ?
Who are you comparing nurses, garda, firemen with exactly?

Your posts are laughable as they are pure spiteful and exaggerated.

Why do people automaticilly default to nurses, teachers firefighters and Gardai when speaking about items such as this?

Farmer Pudsey · 10-04-2013 08:02PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Ah poor Farmer Pudsey,
.

Do not worry about poor Farmer Pudsey he has survived out in the big bad world for two bad recessions one stupid boom.

greenoverred · 10-04-2013 09:25PM

How does this news story fit in with the claims that finances have deteriorated to such an extent that the government are entitled to renege on CP1

http://www.rte.ie/news/business/2013/0410/380665-no-need-for-extra-fiscal-measures-says-council/

tayto lover · 10-04-2013 09:36PM

kippy wrote: »

Why do people automaticilly default to nurses, teachers firefighters and Gardai when speaking about items such as this?

Because I for one would love to know what their equivalent is in the Private Sector. The limelight has been on these jobs for the last number of weeks with their unions meetings and conferences.

tayto lover · 10-04-2013 09:39PM

kippy wrote: »

Were they working unpaid in awful conditions at risk to their lives?
Unions there or not, those cases would have ended no differently.

That's a bit of a cop-out to be honest.
You were the one who suggested that unions were now defunct because Europe would have looked after their terms and conditions but that was not the case and they got no help from Government reps either.

kippy · 10-04-2013 10:23PM

tayto lover wrote: »

Because I for one would love to know what their equivalent is in the Private Sector. The limelight has been on these jobs for the last number of weeks with their unions meetings and conferences.

There isnt one. If u dont like your career,Change it.

kippy · 10-04-2013 10:24PM

tayto lover wrote: »

That's a bit of a cop-out to be honest.
You were the one who suggested that unions were now defunct because Europe would have looked after their terms and conditions but that was not the case and they got no help from Government reps either.

What would unions have done differently

tayto lover · 10-04-2013 10:41PM

kippy wrote: »

There isnt one. If u dont like your career,Change it.

I am not in the PS and am semi retired now. Just work for fun and also do a lot of voluntary charity stuff. I have worked for 44 years. Never missed a day except when i was in hospital on one occasion. Never claimed the dole either thank God. Also ran my own business for years and paid good money to good employees. Pay peanuts, get monkeys is very true.

Still waiting for you to point out where the better paying jobs are for those in the PS who are not happy.

tayto lover · 10-04-2013 10:42PM

kippy wrote: »

What would unions have done differently

The unions stood by them the Govt and Europe didn't.

kippy · 10-04-2013 10:44PM

tayto lover wrote: »

I am not in the PS and am semi retired now. Just work for fun and also do a lot of voluntary charity stuff. I have worked for 44 years. Never missed a day except when i was in hospital on one occasion. Never claimed the dole either thank God. Also ran my own business for years and paid good money to good employees. Pay peanuts, get monkeys is very true.

Still waiting for you to point out where the better paying jobs are for those in the PS who are not happy.

It was a general comment not meant to be aimed directly at you. You said there were no comparable jobs in private sector for thoose not happy in teaching etc. I say change careers if your not happy. Have you looked on jobs.ie or other recruitment sites btw

tayto lover · 10-04-2013 10:47PM

kippy wrote: »

It was a general comment not meant to be aimed directly at you. You said there were no comparable jobs in private sector for thoose not happy in teaching etc. I say change careers if your not happy. Have you looked on jobs.ie or other recruitment sites btw

Where would I find 500 jobs for disgruntled prison officers, garda or firemen?

barneystinson · 10-04-2013 10:48PM

kippy wrote: »

It was a general comment not meant to be aimed directly at you. You said there were no comparable jobs in private sector for thoose not happy in teaching etc. I say change careers if your not happy. Have you looked on jobs.ie or other recruitment sites btw

That's a ridiculous attitude- have the state (and individuals) spend years of time and resources training people for a particular career, then run them out of it; who'll you end up with in those jobs then? Only people who know they couldn't cut it anywhere else. Race to the bottom.

Croke Park II preliminary Talks started today

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