Another victim of violent Republicanism...

Norwesterner · 09-04-2013 06:51PM

Not all Republicans are members of the IRA.
Whats next? Wearing an Easter Lily is an admission of membership?

Super-Rush · 09-04-2013 06:51PM

Anynama141 wrote: »

Another victim of violent Republicanism - a butcher's van driver murdered by a middle-aged woman. I'm not quite sure how the terrorists think this strikes a blow for Ireland or improves the lot of their countrymen, but she seems quite proud of herself. The only thing I can think of is that this was another squabble over the proceeds of drug dealing.

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/courts/female-assassin-pleads-guilty-to-murder-29184761.html

Don't post in this thread again.

If you need to clarify anything then pm me.

Iwasfrozen · 09-04-2013 06:51PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

Not all Republicans are members of the IRA.
Whats next? Wearing an Easter Lily is an admission of membership?

Being convicted of being a member is kind of an indication...

Sunnyisland · 09-04-2013 06:53PM

While I don't agree with a lot of Anynama141 posts, I do think its being a bit unfair saying this murder/killing was not connected to the Republican movement all be it dissidents.And posters claiming she did it on & by her own are wide of the mark.

Seachmall · 09-04-2013 06:54PM

Anynama141 wrote: »

I think you've forgotten what point you are arguing at this point. I suggest you read the thread over again.

I'm arguing your conclusion from the OP that this was a dissident attack was based on bias.

Nothing in the article you sourced claims or infers that this was an ordered hit.

coolemon · 09-04-2013 06:55PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

Not a single Republican is in jail for dealing drugs.
There are scores of articles where Republican groups have destroyed or handed over tens of thousands of euros in drugs.
Counter their politics by all means, but don't just parrot propaganda and misinformation.
I come from a strong Republican area in the North and I know nobody who believes any of the IRA's deal in drugs or tax dealers either.
Over 200 hundred have been forced from Derry alone. Why force them out if it's alleged they are making millions from taxing dealers.
It's all lies.

Well thats not true now is it. Only, what, two weeks ago a convicted cocaine dealer was arrested with another 7 in Raheny and all were charged with IRA membership.

Miss Lockhart · 09-04-2013 06:57PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

Not a single Republican is in jail for dealing drugs.
There are scores of articles where Republican groups have destroyed or handed over tens of thousands of euros in drugs.
Counter their politics by all means, but don't just parrot propaganda and misinformation.
I come from a strong Republican area in the North and I know nobody who believes any of the IRA's deal in drugs or tax dealers either.
Over 200 hundred dealers have been forced from Derry alone. Why force them out if it's alleged they are making millions from taxing dealers.
It's all lies.

Maybe things are different in the North, but that is absolutely not true in West Dublin anyway.

0ph0rce0 · 09-04-2013 06:58PM

coolemon wrote: »

Well thats not true now is it. Only, what, two weeks ago a convicted cocaine dealer was arrested with another 7 in Raheny and all were charged with IRA membership.

That's because if you do anything bad your automatically in the IRA :rolleyes: I cant believe people believe all that media garbage

09-04-2013 07:00PM

realies wrote: »

While I don't agree with a lot of Anynama141 posts, I do think its being a bit unfair saying this murder/killing was not connected to the Republican movement all be it dissidents.And posters claiming she did it on & by her own are wide of the mark.

But there is so many factions of the IRA and so many ulterior motives to hide behind the banner that there is a valid argument that Republicanism provided her with a mere flag of convenience.

I dont advocate the IRA by any means but how do they actually prove that she is part of a branch or that she received orders to do it and/or is linked to the top brass or local branch?

Sunnyisland · 09-04-2013 07:01PM

And three arrests were also made as officers stepped up their inquiries over the past three days into the fatal shooting, which is believed to have been carried out by members of the dissident republican group, the Continuity IRA (CIRA).

In a follow-up operation detectives arrested a suspected senior member of the CIRA in west Dublin, and a woman, who is linked to another senior dissident, based in Limerick city.
They were detained when armed officers intercepted a car on the Naas Road on Thursday night.
The car was travelling towards Dublin when it was stopped. The man and woman were taken into custody and were still being questioned last night. Gardai think that individual members of CIRA may have got together to organise the murder rather than carrying it out as a sanctioned "hit".

http://www.google.ie/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=guns%20seized%20as%20gardai%20step%20up%20probe%20into%20van%20driver's%20murder&source=web&cd=1&cad=rja&ved=0CC8QFjAA&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.independent.ie%2Firish-news%2Fguns-seized-as-gardai-step-up-probe-into-van-drivers-murder-26802973.html&ei=BldkUefJC4qM7Ab984DADQ&usg=AFQjCNE1fWLy3V6ZCQhUjC7tPeDOLOP7AQ&bvm=bv.44990110,d.ZGU

The woman arrested above was later charged with the murder.

coolemon · 09-04-2013 07:01PM

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

That's because if you do anything bad your automatically in the IRA :rolleyes: I cant believe people believe all that media garbage

Its not garbage. Check the facts.

And im not saying anyone who does bad is automatically in the IRA. But to say there were no drug dealers is false.

The same way there are and were drug dealers in the Gardai.

Norwesterner · 09-04-2013 07:04PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Being convicted of being a member is kind of an indication...

You don't need evidence in the Special Criminal Court to secure a conviction in IRA membership charges.
It simply takes a hunch from a Garda Superintendent.
It's internment basically.
I would not take the SCC as an indication of anything, and nor would most functioning European nations.
Even in Britain, many of the IRA membership charges accepted in Dublin would be laughed out of court.
(Incidentally, people were duped in the GFA debates of 1998 that this Court would be broken up, and the draconian emergency legislation be scrapped...it has been made more draconian)

0ph0rce0 · 09-04-2013 07:04PM

coolemon wrote: »

Its not garbage. Check the facts.

And im not saying anyone who does bad is automatically in the IRA. But to say there were no drug dealers is false.

The same way there are and were drug dealers in the Gardai.

But most of the time there is never any proof at all, it will be some person who knows someone that was in the IRA and then automatically that person that commits a crime is linked in dissident activity and is now a member of some version of the IRA. Its all bollocks.

coolemon · 09-04-2013 07:05PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Being convicted of being a member is kind of an indication...

A member of what though. Her "RCIRA" can hardly be seen to be synonymous with the other "IRA's".

If it were, anyone could say they were in the IRA and go around shooting people, and then claim it was political.

This Limerick gang were just that, a gang.

Iwasfrozen · 09-04-2013 07:08PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

You don't need evidence in the Special Criminal Court to secure a conviction in IRA membership charges.
It simply takes a hunch from a Garda Superintendent.
It's internment basically.
I would not take the SCC as an indication of anything, and nor would most functioning European nations.
Even in Britain, many of the IRA membership charges accepted in Dublin would be laughed out of court.
(Incidentally, people were duped in the GFA debates of 1998 that this Court would be broken up, and the draconian emergency legislation be scrapped...it has been made more draconian)

Except she confessed. And shouted Republican slogans infront of the victims family. Pure scum. Yet to some posters here she's more honourable then Thatcher. Seems your position on the political spectrum speaks more of your nobility in these parts then your actions. Very sad.

coolemon · 09-04-2013 07:08PM

0ph0rce0 wrote: »

But most of the time there is never any proof at all, it will be some person who knows someone that was in the IRA and then automatically that person that commits a crime is linked in dissident activity and is now a member of some version of the IRA. Its all bollocks.

Look. the individual in question was already accepted on the E3 landing in Portlaoise. He was then expelled when his criminal background emerged.

That, and he has been charged with IRA membership in the company with 7 others.

There is no point denying it. Criminal elements can get involved with the IRA. But that should not necessarilly be a reflection on the broader organisation.

Nodin · 09-04-2013 07:09PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Except she confessed. And shouted Republican slogans infront of the victims family. Pure scum. Yet to some posters here she's more honourable then Thatcher. Seems your position on the political spectrum speaks more of your nobility in these parts then your actions. Very sad.

What posters would those be? I think I'm familiar with all the posts in the thread and don't recall seeing anything like that.

Iwasfrozen · 09-04-2013 07:09PM

coolemon wrote: »

A member of what though. Her "RCIRA" can hardly be seen to be synonymous with the other "IRA's".

If it were, anyone could say they were in the IRA and go around shooting people, and then claim it was political.

This Limerick gang were just that, a gang.

There is no one IRA, and yes if I made up my own group called "IWF's IRA" then went around shooting people in the name of the republican movement then yes, those deaths would be political. Providing I could justify how their deaths further my goal of a UI. They don't even have to make sense. I could be bad **** crazy but as long as politics motivates me then it follows the killings were still politically motivated.

Norwesterner · 09-04-2013 07:13PM

coolemon wrote: »

Look. the individual in question was already accepted on the E3 landing in Portlaoise. He was then expelled when his criminal background emerged.

That, and he has been charged with IRA membership in the company with 7 others.

There is no point denying it. Criminal elements can get involved with the IRA. But that should not necessarilly be a reflection on the broader organisation.

Or it could be this criminal was NOT a member of the IRA.
He hasn't been convicted of IRA membership.
Nor has any of the 8.
Within hours of their arrest, it was described as a "sting" operation by the Indo.
They were arrested in a Commercial premise, in which some time later a gun was found.
The gun may have belonged to just ONE of them, and the other 7 innocent.
It may even have been planted later by the Gardai.
Had you wandered in off the street to this public premise, you'd have been charged as well.
This would be laughed out of most Western Courts.

Iwasfrozen · 09-04-2013 07:14PM

Nodin wrote: »

What posters would those be? I think I'm familiar with all the posts in the thread and don't recall seeing anything like that.

Seems, perspective tense. As in my perspective having read over the other posts in this thread. It's pointless pointing posts out to you because your perspective will be different and we will end up in a circular argument. The number of circular arguments you and I have engaged in must easily be in double figures by now.

gallag · 09-04-2013 07:16PM

Whilst they are shooting each other rejoice, rejoice.

coolemon · 09-04-2013 07:18PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

There is no one IRA, and yes if I made up my own group called "IWF's IRA" then went around shooting people in the name of the republican movement then yes, those deaths would be political. Providing I could justify how their deaths further my goal of a UI. They don't even have to make sense. I could be bad **** crazy but as long as politics motivates me then it follows the killings were still politically motivated.

But perhaps politics did not motivate her. Rather, that she just adopted a socio-historical identity label. What she was, perhaps, was someone involved in an Irish ganglike 'socio-identity' group like we see in the US. Where black gangs have elements of a socio-historical identity, but in practice are just drug pushers and a criminal underclass. Different labels, different slogans, different tattoos. But the same social phenomenon.

A very different phenomenon than with a guerrilla army.

coolemon · 09-04-2013 07:20PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

Or it could be this criminal was NOT a member of the IRA.
He hasn't been convicted of IRA membership.
Nor has any of the 8.
Within hours of their arrest, it was described as a "sting" operation by the Indo.
They were arrested in a Commercial premise, in which some time later a gun was found.
The gun may have belonged to just ONE of them, and the other 7 innocent.
It may even have been planted later by the Gardai.
Had you wandered in off the street to this public premise, you'd have been charged as well.
This would be laughed out of most Western Courts.

Yes this is all possible. And of course he has not been convicted. But he has been charged.

And it wont look good that he was arrested whilst in the company of, or involved with, the others.

Iwasfrozen · 09-04-2013 07:23PM

coolemon wrote: »

But perhaps politics did not motivate her. Rather, that she just adopted a socio-historical identity label. What she was, perhaps, was someone involved in an Irish ganglike 'socio-identity' group like we see in the US. Where black gangs have elements of a socio-historical identity, but in practice are just drug pushers and a criminal underclass. Different labels, different slogans, different tattoos. But the same social phenomenon.

A very different phenomenon than with a guerrilla army.

Gangs in the US don't tend to have 50 year old women as members. Her involvement would imply a more centralised, organised group indicative of the IRA.

Nodin · 09-04-2013 07:26PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Seems, perspective tense. As in my perspective having read over the other posts in this thread. It's pointless pointing posts out to you because your perspective will be different and we will end up in a circular argument. The number of circular arguments you and I have engaged in must easily be in double figures by now.

Well as I'm hostile to the dissident movment, I'd imagine I'd have no problem seeing such. Evidently theres more to your perspective than that.

My name is URL · 09-04-2013 07:27PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Gangs in the US don't tend to have 50 year old women as members. Her involvement would imply a more centralised, organised group indicative of the IRA.

So sexist and ageist... you should be ashamed of yourself :pac:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/women-run-daytoday-criminal-business-of-leading-drugs-gangs-28954821.html

Iwasfrozen · 09-04-2013 07:30PM

My name is URL wrote: »

So sexist and ageist... you should be ashamed of yourself :pac:

http://www.independent.ie/irish-news/women-run-daytoday-criminal-business-of-leading-drugs-gangs-28954821.html

Excuse me? Where was my post sexist or ageist? As for your link I said indicative I didn't say if was total proof.

coolemon · 09-04-2013 07:31PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Gangs in the US don't tend to have 50 year old women as members. Her involvement would imply a more centralised, organised group indicative of the IRA.

Well you may have cultural variations which may explain why a 50yo woman was involved. Certainly you would have 50yo men involved in the US if they dont get shot or locked up.

What I am saying is that it would seem possible that criminal gangs may adopt socio-historical identities. And that, from this, there has to be a point by which we distinguish between gangs with a socio-historical identity and actual politically motivated guerrilla groups.

Her group were the former, I suspect. Or at least are something of a transitionary hybrid between the two.

My name is URL · 09-04-2013 07:40PM

Iwasfrozen wrote: »

Excuse me? Where was my post sexist or ageist? As for your link I said indicative I didn't say if was total proof.

I wasn't being wholly serious.. but you'd be naive to think that women don't play an integral (although usually more hidden) role in gangland criminal activity, dissident or otherwise.

King of Kings · 09-04-2013 07:47PM

Norwesterner wrote: »

Not a single Republican is in jail for dealing drugs.
There are scores of articles where Republican groups have destroyed or handed over tens of thousands of euros in drugs.
Counter their politics by all means, but don't just parrot propaganda and misinformation.
I come from a strong Republican area in the North and I know nobody who believes any of the IRA's deal in drugs or tax dealers either.
Over 200 hundred dealers have been forced from Derry alone. Why force them out if it's alleged they are making millions from taxing dealers.
It's all lies.

what about this lad?

http://www.herald.ie/news/ira-kicks-heroin-dealer-off-its-landing-in-prison-29176395.html

in case somebody argues that he hasn't been convicted (yet!) - why was he allowed on the republican wing in the first place?

Another victim of violent Republicanism...

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