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Should the voting age be changed to 16?

  • 22-03-2013 04:41PM
    #1
    CelticDragon7
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 23 ✭CelticDragon7


    Simple Yes or No Question, Should the voting age in Ireland be changed from 18 to 16?

    What do we all think? smile.png

    The main argument is that the voting age should be appropriate to ensure that the person is old enough to make an informed and independent choice. My question however is that how can this really truly be defined? I mean if we look at the various ages at which young people are allowed to legally do things in Ireland, we find that there really isnt any consensus on at what age someone really becomes an adult or thinks for themselves.

    Indeed if we note that:

    The legal age of consent is 17.

    The legal age to marry is 18. Although younger with approval from the court.

    The legal age to purchase alcohol is 18, although those under can drink with the consent of their parents or guardian.

    The legal age at which a person is able to drive is 17.

    The legal age to purchase tobacco is 18, but yet the legal age to smoke it is 16.

    The legal age at which someone may join the army is 17 (although under 18 year olds, require their parents permission).

    The age of Criminal Responsibiilty is 12, (This is when a child becomes criminally responsible for their actions and the consequences of their actions and so from the age of 12 onwards, individuals are then considered an adult in the eyes of the law. Therefore, all punishment given by the courts or other law enforcement agencies will rest solely upon them.

    The age at which Parental responsibility ends is when the child reaches the age of 18 or enters marriage.

    A young person must stay in school until the last Friday in June of the school year in which they turned 16.

    There are also different levels of National Minimum Wage, depending on a persons age.

    Experienced adult worker - €8.65
    Aged under 18 - €6.06
    First year from date of first employment aged over 18 - €6.92
    Second year from date of first employment aged over 18 - €7.79


    To be elected to Dail Eireann, or be a member of the Seanad Eireann A person must be aged 21 or over, and to be president of Ireland you have to be 35 or over.

    And I a sure I have forgotten other examples!!


    So after reading all that you may be asking what have all these legal ages got to do with the age of voting? Well it is my opinion, they have everything to do with it, because if we take into account all of the above facts about legal ages in the Ireland, it seems that when it comes to our laws, we really are all over the place in our legal viewpoint for when we consider someone old enough or responsible enough for their actions.

    I am 24 and so I have no real benefit in the government lowering the voting age to 16 but it is something that I would support and something that I would vote Yes on (furthermore If it was up to me I would make 16 or at least one age the legal age for everything but that is a topic for another day). But my main aim for asking this question is to find out what each of you think? Should the voting age be lowered to 16?

    All debate and points of view are welcomed =]


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Comments

  • #2
    View
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,872 ✭✭✭View


    Given the poor quality of our political debate and decision making, it should be raised not lowered. The only question is how high should we raise it!


  • #3
    Lapin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 18,184 ✭✭✭✭Lapin


    I think 18 is about right although I wouldn't have anything against 16 year olds voting in local, European and Presidential elections and certain referendums.

    At least those who have the opportunity to do so will be able to engage with the system and be somewhat better prepared for the more serious decisions to be made at general elections when they do turn 18.

    As for the selling of alcohol, keep it at 18 for beer, wine and other drinks with an ABV of less than 15% until the age of 21. I don't think anyone under the age of 21 should be permitted to drink spirits and other hard liquors.


  • #4
    randd1
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,425 ✭✭✭randd1


    No.

    It may have been feasible twenty years ago when some teenagers had some semblance of what politics meant for them and the country.

    But these days I'd doubt 95% of teenagers would be able to name the President of this country, and I reckon a higher percentage would have no idea who their local TD's are.

    They're far more interested in who Taylor Swift is dating, with the only voting they're likely to do being on the X-Factor voting lines.

    Until something like an up-to-date CSPE program becomes standard in every school in the educational system (especially for education in terms of law, civil rights and political debate) so our kids come up with some idea about why the country is the way it is and what laws make the country run, then I think the voting age so stay the same.

    In fact, I think there should be some sort of test done (something like a theory test for driving) before the age of 18 to see if they understand why they are voting, and why its so important.

    Or raise the age to 20.


  • #5
    keelanj69
    Closed Accounts Posts: 4,089 ✭✭✭keelanj69


    Yeah, take a look at what happens when they are allowed to vote in Student Union elections. It's mickey mouse stuff compared to real life and yet it's just a case of voting for your friend or whoever gives you a lollipop. Pure shambles if I'm honest. Not only are the student unions not held accountable from one end of the year to the next but they organise marches with people dressed in pokemon outfits or some such.

    How one could take these protests seriously is beyond me so no I don't think letting younger people vote is a good idea. Not only is there a general lack of interest but also a lack of capability on behalf of the people involved. Drop the father ted signs and engage and maybe then we can talk.


  • #6
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Sure. Give people the vote at 16 and lower the age where parental responsibility ends to 16 too. If people have a responsibility to support themselves, that's when they have a stake in the government that affects this.

    TBH, I'd probably raise the minimum voting age or require that people pass an IQ and/or citizen's test before they can.


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  • #7
    stone_cutter
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 12 ✭stone_cutter


    sinn fein and the ULA would benefit greatly if they were to lower voting age


  • #8
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    stone_cutter wrote: »
    sinn fein and the ULA would benefit greatly if they were to lower voting age

    That's not true, studies in other countries with lower voting age dies not show a major shift in voting patterns.

    I would also disagree with the point that young people are not politicised. They are certainly activists. Having said that, all wisdom points to a voting age of 17


  • #9
    hyperborean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭hyperborean


    View wrote: »
    Given the poor quality of our political debate and decision making, it should be raised not lowered. The only question is how high should we raise it!

    I have to agree, and would be inclined to go + 25 if age was the limiting factor on voting.


  • #10
    hyperborean
    Closed Accounts Posts: 655 ✭✭✭hyperborean


    StillWaters wrote: »
    That's not true, studies in other countries with lower voting age dies not show a major shift in voting patterns.

    I would also disagree with the point that young people are not politicised. They are certainly activists. Having said that, all wisdom points to a voting age of 17

    I would be interested to see these studies, can you point me in the right direction or post a link?


  • #11
    Bullseye1
    Closed Accounts Posts: 5,731 ✭✭✭Bullseye1


    Yes.


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  • #12
    Yitzhak Rabin
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 7,225 ✭✭✭Yitzhak Rabin


    Absolutely not.

    It should be raised to 25 in my opinion. Of course this would probably wipe out the ULAs demographic of naive students.


  • #13
    StillWaters
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,799 ✭✭✭StillWaters


    hyperborean wrote: »
    I would be interested to see these studies, can you point me in the right direction or post a link?

    ill dig them out at work. Afair it is only in Austria that voting patterns changed. David Farrell has done a bit of work in this area.

    Id be in favour of a simple competancy test for all voters and make it compulsory to vote. It is older voters I feel, who had little or no civics education at school who dont know how to vote. Although I have a political affiliation, I dont particularly care how people vote, as long as they do, and know how to.


  • #14
    Weathering
    Closed Accounts Posts: 1,101 ✭✭✭Weathering


    Does it really matter in this country of idiots? FG or FF is always going to be elected. Finn Sh1t sums them up


  • #15
    Endless Nameless
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 138 ✭✭Endless Nameless


    I would've liked to be able to vote at 16 (although I would've voted differently to now).

    I'd vote to lower all of those legal ages (except for criminal responsibility).


  • #16
    DrumSteve
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 10,798 ✭✭✭✭DrumSteve


    Yitzhak Rabin wrote: »
    Absolutely not.

    It should be raised to 25 in my opinion. Of course this would probably wipe out the ULAs demographic of naive students.

    Why should it be raised? Its not like the voters currently occupying that demographic have covered themselves on glory in the last few years is it?

    Let them vote at 16, we teach civics (or whatever its called now) in schools, why not let them practice their ultimate civic responsibility.


  • #17
    belcampprisoner
    Banned (with Prison Access) Posts: 698 ✭✭✭belcampprisoner


    no.


  • #18
    Madam
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 1,501 ✭✭✭Madam


    Why not? Were most of us not all idealists when we were 18? I can't see a couple of years making any difference - I know I would have voted the same way when I was sixteen as I did at eighteen.


  • #19
    RangeR
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 7,258 ✭✭✭RangeR


    The Constitutional Convention voted marginally, to lower the voting age to 16. Personally, I voted to reduce the voting age to 16 with safeguards. Not just a blanket "Yes".


  • #20
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Madam wrote: »
    Why not? Were most of us not all idealists when we were 18? I can't see a couple of years making any difference - I know I would have voted the same way when I was sixteen as I did at eighteen.
    People tend to become less idealistic and more practical as we grow older - even though at 18 you feel you'd not changed, you probably did a little bit and at an aggregate level the population will become slightly less so between 16 and 18.

    Yet even were this not the case, and there was no difference between what we believe at 16 and 18, you are affecting the demographics significantly; you've just introduce tens if not hundreds of thousands of new voters, with a more idealistic or naieve perspective to the democratic process - potentially enough to swing elections.

    Is this bad? I'd have to say yes for several reasons.

    Firstly, 16 year-olds lack the same stake as the older majority. They have no responsibility to care for themselves - that's their parent's responsibility - so core issues such as taxation and employment are irrelevant to them.

    Related to this is that they are still exempt from civic duty. If war broke out, they cannot be drafted. They are still treated as minors in terms of legal consequence. They're not even required to do jury duty. Voting becomes a right, without any of the civic responsibilities that come with it.

    Secondly, 16 year-olds have generally not completed their education (a few have left school at that age, but nowadays this is a tiny percentage). They lack the last year or two of education which can make a perceptible difference in how well equipped they are with processing problems, such as the critical analysis of political policies.

    Thirdly, they are less rational and more prone twoards impulsive and 'passionate' short-term choices. Translated to politics, this means more votes for extremist parties, especially those that produce policy documents that such young voters simply cannot assess critically.

    As Georges Clemenceau once said; "If a man is not a socialist in his youth, he has no heart. If he is not a conservative by the time he is 30 he has no head." This is not to say that allowing 16 year-olds to vote would result in Richard Boyd-Barrett as Taoiseach, because it can apply to any passionate political movement - the most ardent, and least critical, supporters of National Socialism in Germany were the Hitler Youth, after all.

    So overall, I really do think it's a dumb idea to decrease the age. It's bad enough that universal suffrage allows a vote to people who have no understanding of politics and that are too lazy to inform themselves, without making things even worse.


  • #21
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    While I can't say I'm particularly in favour of dropping the age to 16 I really have to laugh if you think that people over 18 (or 38 for that matter) choose their candidates based on a logical assessments of their policies, ability and integrity.



    Jaysus - comparing the young population to the Hitler Youth - more like they'll just vote the same way their parents do hurray for FF/FG!


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  • #22
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Cliste wrote: »
    While I can't say I'm particularly in favour of dropping the age to 16 I really have to laugh if you think that people over 18 (or 38 for that matter) choose their candidates based on a logical assessments of their policies, ability and integrity.
    I never suggested they do, only that they are less likely to vote for extremist or revolutionary candidates - an 18 year old may well vote for an extremist, but a 16 year old is even more likely to do so and that can well swing the balance of power in favour of more extremists being elected.
    Jaysus - comparing the young population to the Hitler Youth - more like they'll just vote the same way their parents do hurray for FF/FG!
    Actually, no; a 16 year old is less likely to vote the same way their parents than someone a few years older.

    If you don't believe me look at the general politics of Boards, which is demographically younger than the electorate. SF or People Against Profit would have significantly more TD's if Boards were how we voted for the Dail.


  • #23
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    That wasn't aimed at you..
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Actually, no; a 16 year old is less likely to vote the same way their parents than someone a few years older.

    If you don't believe me look at the general politics of Boards, which is demographically younger than the electorate. SF or People Against Profit would have significantly more TD's if Boards were how we voted for the Dail.

    Taking boards as evidence of anything is questionable, the same trend could be said of p.ie and pw. Perhaps there are no older people online, or perhaps you're just hearing the people who shout loudest.


  • #24
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Cliste wrote: »
    Taking boards as evidence of anything is questionable, the same trend could be said of p.ie and pw. Perhaps there are no older people online, or perhaps you're just hearing the people who shout loudest.
    Never claimed that Boards should be taken as some sort of scientific proof. Nonetheless, you'll see the same trends in polls that are published in threads (so shouting loudest becomes less important) and the average age here is significantly lower than that of the electorate, as the average age here has been published in the past.

    So while it is hardly scientific proof, it is relevant evidence that points to younger demographics tending twoards more radical politics.

    Where this becomes important is as to the size of that demographic:

    Pyramidireland.gif

    As you can see, the 15 to 19 segment is the second largest in the population, so that even if reduced to 30 - 40% of that, so as to represent only 16 to 18 year-olds, it's still quite a significant population, with which to tip the balance of elections twoards more extremist parties.


  • #25
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    As you can see, the 15 to 19 segment is the second largest in the population, so that even if reduced to 30 - 40% of that, so as to represent only 16 to 18 year-olds, it's still quite a significant population, with which to tip the balance of elections twoards more extremist parties.

    That's just evidence that there is a decent chunk of people in the age category...?

    I can say that there's far more people not in the age range.. one age group can only outvote another if there's more of them!

    It doesn't show:
    • That they would vote extreme in practice
    • That they would vote in practice


  • #26
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Cliste wrote: »
    I can say that there's far more people not in the age range.. one age group can only outvote another if there's more of them!
    Irrelevant. A 1% shift in voting patters can often change the political landscape. You don't need for it to be a majority of all age groups to make a difference.
    • That they would vote extreme in practice
    I've already presented evidence above to this point. Questionable evidence, but it's still a lot more evidence than has been presented to the contrary.
    • That they would vote in practice
    Or that they would not.


  • #27
    Grudaire
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 3,594 ✭✭✭Grudaire


    The Corinthian wrote: »
    Irrelevant. A 1% shift in voting patters can often change the political landscape. You don't need for it to be a majority of all age groups to make a difference.

    Granted, but I think
    a - you have failed to show that it would cause a 1% shift
    b - perhaps the new political landscape would be more representitive
    The Corinthian wrote: »
    I've already presented evidence above to this point. Questionable evidence, but it's still a lot more evidence than has been presented to the contrary.

    Well why are FF and FG active on College campuses around Ireland? Because a lot of young people hold the same opinions as older people.


  • #28
    StaticNoise
    Registered Users, Registered Users 2 Posts: 2,450 ✭✭✭StaticNoise


    Please don't shoot me down for this idea, but would anyone be kind enough to show their political affiliation alongside their voting age beliefs. It would just be out of interest. You don't have to, but it may be interesting.

    For example, are FG posters more towards older ages, Sinn Fein younger, or even those who have shifted in their political beliefs?


  • #29
    Sierra Oscar
    Moderators, Category Moderators, Computer Games Moderators, Society & Culture Moderators Posts: 8,695 CMod ✭✭✭✭Sierra Oscar


    The Corinthian wrote: »

    If you don't believe me look at the general politics of Boards, which is demographically younger than the electorate. SF or People Against Profit would have significantly more TD's if Boards were how we voted for the Dail.

    I wouldn't make the mistake of assuming that political beliefs on Boards.ie reflect the beliefs of 16 - 20 age group nationally. That is far from the case.

    Also, we always have this argument put forward that if the voting age was lowered then it would somehow have a massive impact on SF / ULA / Socialists. I'm not sure if that would occur in reality.

    If you actually look at the demographics for the RedC Poll in February, you will see that Fianna Fáil is the most popular party in terms of support levels amongst the 18 - 34 age group.

    This notion that young people only vote for SF or the likes is not really founded in much truth at all. I would therefore question if changing the voting age would in fact change the makeup of Dáil Éireann as dramatically as some people here think it would.

    I would actually argue that it could further reinforce the position of FF & FG, considering that both parties have been recruiting members from 16+ for years now and dominate the political scene within universities and the likes.


  • #30
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Cliste wrote: »
    a - you have failed to show that it would cause a 1% shift
    I never said it would; I've repeatedly said that it could - that introducing such an immature demographic would not bring beneficial consequences and if anything would introduce detrimental ones.
    b - perhaps the new political landscape would be more representitive
    Representative by what measure? Why not give everyone the vote then? To five year olds and non-citizens if you want to be truly representative?

    When talking of representative, one needs to define philosophically what this means and this is a different discussion. In this regard, our system enfranchises those with a permanent stake in that system - and until someone is old enough that they are responsible for their own welfare, at 18, they are not.
    Well why are FF and FG active on College campuses around Ireland? Because a lot of young people hold the same opinions as older people.
    Firstly, since when was the average age of college students 16? That is what we're talking about.

    Secondly, you can already see the difference at college between the political landscape there and in society as a whole. Or how many presidents of Ireland get elected who are members of the SWP? How many SU presidents?

    People become more conservative as they grow older and will tend towards less radical politics. You see this in the membership of political parties and groups and you often see this shift as people look at their wage slip and see how much tax they've paid.

    Is this a bad thing? It's not ideal, but at the same time it's a lot better than encouraging radical groups to get into power.


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  • #31
    The Corinthian
    Closed Accounts Posts: 19,777 ✭✭✭✭The Corinthian


    Sierra Oscar wrote: »
    If you actually look at the demographics for the RedC Poll in February, you will see that Fianna Fáil is the most popular party in terms of support levels amongst the 18 - 34 age group.
    This would be the same report that demonstrates that support for SF drops with age; from 21% amongst the 18 - 34 age group, 16% amongst the 35 - 54 age group and 12% amongst the 55+ age group - which oddly enough supports this 'notion' you're dismissing.
    I would therefore question if changing the voting age would in fact change the makeup of Dáil Éireann as dramatically as some people here think it would.
    Well, apart from the evidence you presented disagreeing with you, it actually takes very little to dramatically change the balance of power in the right circumstances - or have we all forgotten Tony Gregory already?


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